Scotch Ale Brewing Question

[Gerry_P]

First off, kudos to you for brewing this style. It seems like most people want to be bashed over the head with a hop hammer these days, so delicious malt-forward beers are often ignored. Scotch ales are my favorite to both drink and brew, so I'll throw in my $.02.

Caramelization of extract wort works exactly the same as caramelization of wort that one makes by mashing grains. When you use extract, you're letting the extract people do the mashing for you. No offense to the person who said not to bother caramelizing extract wort, but I strongly disagree. Extract recipes will benefit from kettle caramelization as much as all-grain recipes.

I boil all my Scotch ales for 2 hours. Depending on the recipe, I'll sometimes remove part of my mash and reduce it.

I prefer Wyeast 1728 over WLP028, so I like your yeast choice. They're supposed to be the same strain, but ideally your fermentation temps should be in the low 60s and the Wyeast strain, in my experience, seems to perform better in that temp. range. "Perform better" in this case means that it finishes faster and cleaner in the low 60s with less conditioning time than its White Labs counterpart. Both are good yeasts and both will get the job done, but WLP028 likes things a bit warmer.

Here's a well-known and much respected wee heavy recipe, which I've used with excellent results. As you'll see, removing part of the wort and reducing it is a key part of the process. (Note: Traquair House uses East Kent Goldings in their recipe.)

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=8071.0

 

[BGHSmt7]

These are the two I brewed January 22. The one on the right is the wee heavy, The one on the left is the 80/~ ale. Nottingham/Windsor respectively. The basement is around 65°f.

 

[Gerry_P]

I purchased a SS Brewmaster stainless steel brew bucket, which I hope helps make an excellent product, rather than using the poor man's plastic bucket.

-Paul

I won't hold it against anyone if they have enough disposable income to spend hundreds of dollars on a stainless fermenter. This poor man, however, has switched back to plastic buckets from glass carboys. Cheap, easy to clean, and easy to move. Extended aging can take place in a corny keg, from which the beer can be dispensed.
Here's a picture of Traquair House's fermenters, just to put things in perspective.

 

[brewcat]

Choosing the right yeast for a Scottish ale can be tricky, because Scottish ales have been traditionally fermented at about 50 °F (10°C)

That isn't right. They maybe pitched at 50 early on, but pitching temps were raised long ago. It is more like pitch mid to high 50s and ferment up into the 60s.

 

[premington]

Wow... Beautiful pics, BGHSmt7. I wanna draw some off and drink it! Black, bold, and beautiful!

-Paul

 

[premington]

First off, kudos to you for brewing this style. It seems like most people want to be bashed over the head with a hop hammer these days, so delicious malt-forward beers are often ignored. Scotch ales are my favorite to both drink and brew, so I'll throw in my $.02.

Caramelization of extract wort works exactly the same as caramelization of wort that one makes by mashing grains. When you use extract, you're letting the extract people do the mashing for you. No offense to the person who said not to bother caramelizing extract wort, but I strongly disagree. Extract recipes will benefit from kettle caramelization as much as all-grain recipes.

I boil all my Scotch ales for 2 hours. Depending on the recipe, I'll sometimes remove part of my mash and reduce it.

I prefer Wyeast 1728 over WLP028, so I like your yeast choice. They're supposed to be the same strain, but ideally your fermentation temps should be in the low 60s and the Wyeast strain, in my experience, seems to perform better in that temp. range. "Perform better" in this case means that it finishes faster and cleaner in the low 60s with less conditioning time than its White Labs counterpart. Both are good yeasts and both will get the job done, but WLP028 likes things a bit warmer.

Here's a well-known and much respected wee heavy recipe, which I've used with excellent results. As you'll see, removing part of the wort and reducing it is a key part of the process. (Note: Traquair House uses East Kent Goldings in their recipe.)

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=8071.0

Thanks Gerry,

I really don't care for overly hoppy beers. That bitter bite does nothing for me. Scotch ales and some super rich stouts are my favorite types of beer. I prefer them bold, rich, meaty, and malty!

This batch I'll boil this weekend will use Wyeast 1728. Do you have any recommendations on how to prep it? Should I create a starter, or just punch the pouch and let it sit for the morning, then pitch that?

Also, do you recommend any specific temp when pitching, or should I just follow the recipe, which recommends a temp between 70f and 78f?

Will check the recipe you linked now. Thanks for sharing it.

-Paul

 

[BGHSmt7]

https://www.boomchugalug.com/product/highland-heavy-scotch-ale/

RECIPE SIZE: 5 GALLONS
ABV: 7.2%
COLOR: 17 SRM
IBU: 26
ORIGINAL GRAVITY: 1.077
FINAL GRAVITY: 1.022
READY IN: 10 WEEKS
STARTER: YES
2 STAGE: YES​

You will need to make a starter.

• Without a stir plate, 4.19 Liters
• With a stir plate, 1.57 liter starter

According to MrMalty, you should make a very large starter. You'll need about 277 billion cells and the smack packs are about 100 billion when packaged.

 

[premington]

https://www.boomchugalug.com/product/highland-heavy-scotch-ale/

RECIPE SIZE: 5 GALLONS
ABV: 7.2%
COLOR: 17 SRM
IBU: 26
ORIGINAL GRAVITY: 1.077
FINAL GRAVITY: 1.022
READY IN: 10 WEEKS
STARTER: YES
2 STAGE: YES​

You will need to make a starter.

• Without a stir plate, 4.19 Liters
• With a stir plate, 1.57 liter starter

According to MrMalty, you should make a very large starter. You'll need about 277 billion cells and the smack packs are about 100 billion when packaged.

Shoot... I'm behind the curve here. I'm scheduled to do the boil on Saturday and have a friend coming from a ways away to assist. Do you think I have enough time?

I'm used to doing starters for wine, which I use some of the juice to do. Beer doesn't have juice. I can get it set up this evening, if I get instructions on how to do it. I'll look online... but if you (or anyone else) have a suggestion on how to set up a quick starter, that would be great.

Unfortunately, I'm starting with nothing and have no equipment other than a growler bottle. No nutrients or anything, as of now. I didn't think I'd need a starter. :-( So whatever I can set up now, I can attempt.

I can set it up tomorrow evening and visit a brew shop at lunch. But I'm not sure one night is enough time for a starter to build up to 277 billion cells.

In retrospect, I probably should have purchased three of these smack packs rather than one. I'm surprised the kit place didn't suggest that, since they sold me the yeast. It would have been a bigger sale for them.

-Paul

 

[kev211]

Shoot... I'm behind the curve here. I'm scheduled to do the boil on Saturday and have a friend coming from a ways away to assist. Do you think I have enough time?

I'm used to doing starters for wine, which I use some of the juice to do. Beer doesn't have juice. I can get it set up this evening, if I get instructions on how to do it. I'll look online... but if you (or anyone else) have a suggestion on how to set up a quick starter, that would be great.

Unfortunately, I'm starting with nothing and have no equipment other than a growler bottle. No nutrients or anything, as of now. I didn't think I'd need a starter. :-( So whatever I can set up now, I can attempt.

I can set it up tomorrow evening and visit a brew shop at lunch. But I'm not sure one night is enough time for a starter to build up to 277 billion cells.

-Paul

I dont know if you wanna start digging into your kit, but you could use some of the extract from your kit tonight to build a starter with in your growler and replace it tomorrow with a visit to the HB store. Just a thought.

Tomorrow would probably be a little too little too late. But it would be better than nothing. OR if you dont mind spending a little more, you could always just go get another packet of yeast and chalk it up as lesson learned for the next batch

 

[premington]

I dont know if you wanna start digging into your kit, but you could use some of the extract from your kit tonight to build a starter with in your growler and replace it tomorrow with a visit to the HB store. Just a thought.

Tomorrow would probably be a little too little too late. But it would be better than nothing. OR if you dont mind spending a little more, you could always just go get another packet of yeast and chalk it up as lesson learned for the next batch

Good point... I'll go to the brew shop tomorrow and explain the situation. I'm not sure how common the Wyeast 1728 yeast is. Hopefully they'll have it. If not, I'll just have to wing it and hope for the best.

I could also see if my helper can come on Sunday, but that's a less convenient day for both of us.

I'm glad you guys are here to help coach me through this. Being my first brew, I anticipated I'll learn through mistakes.

-Paul

 

[BGHSmt7]

Too bad you're not near Chicago. I'd come over and lend you some DME and my stirplate.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Can Lyle's Black Treacle be used as a substitute for caramelizing a portion of the wort?

 

[premington]

Too bad you're not near Chicago. I'd come over and lend you some DME and my stirplate.

Let's see... If I get a redeye flight out, I can be in Chicago in the morning, grab what I need, then fly back...

Just kidding!

That's very kind of you. Us brewers are brothers from another mother. This was my fault for not understanding the importance of a good yeast yield in context to my 5 gallon batch. I thought one yeast packet was enough. It probably is, with building the yeast with a proper starter.

The website for my brew store shows a very large collection of yeast, both dry and liquid. I'm hoping they have 1728, although if they don't, can I pair the 1728 I have now with another varietal? Or perhaps ditch what I have and substitute it with another that they carry. If I do that, what's a good substitute?

-Paul

 

[BGHSmt7]

1084 would work similar. 1084 is Wyeast's Irish Ale strain. You could mix 'em and that would be a cool experiment

1084 needs to be fermented a little warmer, 62-72 and has an attenuation of 71-75% where 1728 has a range of 55-75* and an attenuation of 69-73%.

All that means is that the irish will ferment better warmer and will leave less sugars behind which will dry out the beer a little more and increase the alcohol content.

 

[BGHSmt7]

Can Lyle's Black Treacle be used as a substitute for caramelizing a portion of the wort?

No, treacle is basically molasses which has a completely different flavor profile than caramelized sugar/wort.

 

[LLBeanJ]

The website for my brew store shows a very large collection of yeast, both dry and liquid. I'm hoping they have 1728, although if they don't, can I pair the 1728 I have now with another varietal? Or perhaps ditch what I have and substitute it with another that they carry. If I do that, what's a good substitute?

WLP028 Edinburgh Ale is the White Labs equivalent to Wyeast 1728. No problem blending them. If they don't have that, blend your 1728 with WY1056 or WLP001.

 

[premington]

1084 would work similar. 1084 is Wyeast's Irish Ale strain. You could mix 'em and that would be a cool experiment

1084 needs to be fermented a little warmer, 62-72 and has an attenuation of 62-72% where 1728 has a range of 55-75* and an attenuation of 69-73%.

All that means is that the irish will ferment better warmer and will leave some more sugars behind and increase the sweetness a bit.

I see... So if they don't have 1728, I do have this to fall back on. If I used both varietals--and it's nice to hear they'll both play well together in the sandbox--then perhaps the way to go is choose a middle temperature to ferment.

I know 1728 has a preferred range that's lower than 1084, although its range is much wider, 55f-75f. If 1084's range is 62f-72f, then I could settle for a ferment temp of around 65f. That's not the lower-end of 1728s range, but I'm hoping it's low enough to still promote good flavors. 65f is three degrees higher than 1082's low range of 62f. Again... I hope it's still within range to provide a decent flavor profile for this beer.

It's kind of frustrating that one yeast blossoms at a low temp while the other excels at a higher temp. This would be an exercise in compromise.

Ahhh... I love hobbies.

If I need to mix these, as you said, it'll be interesting to see what I get. I have no basis of comparison, since I haven't dabbled in the beer world long enough to know the difference between these yeast varietals.

If it comes out well, perhaps I can send a bottle to one of you who have a pallet to discern the difference between these yeasts.

-Paul

 

[premington]

WLP028 Edinburgh Ale is the White Labs equivalent to Wyeast 1728. No problem blending them. If they don't have that, blend your 1728 with WY1056 or WLP001.

Oh boy... So many options!

I'll jot each of these down and look at their respective profiles. At least I know I have a number of options. Hopefully they'll have 1728 and this won't be an issue.

Thank you for this post.

-Paul

 

[BGHSmt7]

Sorry, I mixed up the numbers.. Go figure. I hate using a phone for forums.

It's actually the other way around. Scottish will leave more residual sugars.

View attachment 1489718861132.jpg

View attachment 1489718910264.jpg

 

[BGHSmt7]

1056 and WLP001 are standard clean ale yeasts. Same as US-05.

 

[patto1ro]

Brew Your Own has a great article on Scotch Ales


The yeast creates a lot of it's flavor profile within the first 3-4 days, so keeping it cool in the beginning, then letting it naturally warm up would not be a bad thing.

I brewed a Double-Decoction Parti-Gyle Scotch ale and 80-Shilling ales. I pitched around 54* and after 2 days in a 61* basement, they were both at 68*. I put the carboys in a cold water bath and it got them back to where they needed to be. I brewed them late January (when we had a heat wave) and they're still sitting aging. I'm prolly going to bottle them in a month or two.

If you just let it ferment for a month or so, bottle it up and enjoy it throughout the year. It should get better as it ages. As for the Caramelization, yes, your stove top can caramalize a small amount of wort just fine. Just don't use full burner.

Unfortunately that stuff about fermenting at 50º F is total bollocks. The lowest pitching temperature I've seen was 54º F, but that quickly rose to well over 60º F. Most of the fermentation for Scottish beers took place between 65º F and 70º F.

It's best to ignore pretty much everything ever written about Scottish beer. Almost none of it is true: long slow fermentations, mininal hopping, roast barley for colour - all complete crap.

 

[patto1ro]

I was thinking it might simulate decoction mashing, which was traditional.

No, it wasn't Scottish brewers used very simple mashing schemes: an infusion mash and one or two sparges.

 

[patto1ro]

Brew Your Own has a great article on Scotch Ales


The yeast creates a lot of it's flavor profile within the first 3-4 days, so keeping it cool in the beginning, then letting it naturally warm up would not be a bad thing.

I brewed a Double-Decoction Parti-Gyle Scotch ale and 80-Shilling ales. I pitched around 54* and after 2 days in a 61* basement, they were both at 68*. I put the carboys in a cold water bath and it got them back to where they needed to be. I brewed them late January (when we had a heat wave) and they're still sitting aging. I'm prolly going to bottle them in a month or two.

If you just let it ferment for a month or so, bottle it up and enjoy it throughout the year. It should get better as it ages. As for the Caramelization, yes, your stove top can caramalize a small amount of wort just fine. Just don't use full burner.

That article is pretty awful, I'm afraid. I wouldn't trust anything in it.

This is a real strong Scotch Ale recipe, based on William Younger's brewing records:

1933 William Younger No. 1
pale malt 11.25 lb 58.44%
grits 7.25 lb 37.66%
lactose 0.75 lb 3.90%
Cluster 90 min 1.75 oz
Fuggles 30 min 1.75 oz
Goldings dry hops 0.25 oz
OG 1085
FG 1033
ABV 6.88
Apparent attenuation 61.18%
IBU 50
SRM 25
Mash at 156º F
Sparge at 160º F
Boil time 150 minutes
pitching temp 57º F
Yeast WLP028 Edinburgh Ale

The colour mostly comes from the addition of caramel. As brewed it's just 5 SRM.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The colour mostly comes from the addition of caramel. As brewed it's just 5 SRM.

Does this mean from wort caramelization?

 

[patto1ro]

Does this mean from wort caramelization?

No, from caramel. Scottish brewers didn't caramelise their wort. In fact, in some periods they had very short boils.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

No, from caramel. Scottish brewers didn't caramelise their wort. In fact, in some periods they had very short boils.

I don't see caramel in your recipe above. What is the specific source of the caramel if not wort caramelization?

 

[LBussy]

To the OP: While not "optimal" I've brewed a lot of batches with a single smack pack and no starter. If it were me I'd go with that and not mix yeasts. It's difficult to reproduce the character of a beer using two yeasts up front. The relative energy level of each is unpredictable from a smack pack. If you had two strong starters and wanted to experiment, that would be more controllable. That single smack pack will do just fine in a well-aerated/oxygenated wort. Keep it simple (and reproducible).

As far as caramelization goes: The Scotts may not do it, but a Scotch Ale is heavy on malt character and to reproduce this with extract, this may not be a bad way to go. It will definitely help impart a maltier flavor profile.

You can get yourself all wrapped up in right, wrong, and experimentation. Pick a line and drive it. Taste it when you are done and see what you like about it and what you do not. Optionally, enter it into a local competition to get some more feedback from (hopefully) experienced judges. Lather, rinse, tweak, repeat.

Good luck and welcome to the club!

 

[patto1ro]

I don't see caramel in your recipe above. What is the specific source of the caramel if not wort caramelization?

Brewer's caramel. It isn't mentioned in the recipe because the amount needed varies depending on the colour of the caramel. As I said earlier, Scottish brewers didn't caramelise their wort.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Brewer's caramel. It isn't mentioned in the recipe because the amount needed varies depending on the colour of the caramel. As I said earlier, Scottish brewers didn't caramelise their wort.

Is brewers caramel available to the home-brewer? What would be an example of it?

 

[patto1ro]

Is brewers caramel available to the home-brewer? What would be an example of it?

You can buy it here:

https://www.hopandgrape.co.uk/brupaks-brewers-caramel.html