Schwarzbier recipe help

[camonick]

I want to attempt to clone New Belgium's 1554. My first attempt was a flop, but I think that was an issue with trying to re-use harvested yeast. I'll start with fresh yeast next time. I've read quite a few recipes on the internet, but none of them seem to share the same ingredients listed on New Belgium's website. This is what their website currently says. ABV: 6.0% ~ IBU: 21 ~ Hops: Nugget ~ Yeast: Lager ~ Malts: Pale, Carapils, Black, Munich & Chocolate. Medium to light body, drinks full flavor.

Do these ingredients and proportions seem reasonable based on the limited information from the website?
Here is my interpretation--

Recipe: New 1554
Brewer: Nick
Asst Brewer:
Style: Schwarzbier
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.15 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.85 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.060 SG
Estimated Color: 28.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 22.3 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 73.6 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU Volume
9 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 70.6 % 0.70 gal
2 lbs 4.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 17.6 % 0.18 gal
10.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 4.9 % 0.05 gal
8.0 oz Blackprinz (500.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.9 % 0.04 gal
6.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.9 % 0.03 gal
0.65 oz Nugget [13.40 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 22.3 IBUs -
0.50 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 7 - -
2.0 pkg Diamond Lager (Lallemand #-) [50.28 ml] Yeast 8 - -


Mash Schedule: BIAB, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 12 lbs 12.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Saccharification Add 7.79 gal of water at 158.8 F 152.1 F 60 min
Mash Out Heat to 168.0 F over 7 min 168.0 F 10 min

Sparge: If steeping, remove grains, and prepare to boil wort
Notes:
------

 

[okiedog]

Yeast could definitely be the issue with your first batch. I harvest and pitch from slurry all the time, but any factors that can stress the yeast can affect the next batch fermented with it. I agree with your thinking that you should re-brew and ferment with fresh yeast before making any other changes. Just make sure you have sufficient cell count for a healthy ferment.. What yeast did you use?

 

[camonick]

What yeast did you use?

I used about 3/4 cake of a second gen 34/70 from a pilsner I brewed a few months earlier. It took nearly 50 hours to show signs of fermentation, but when it finally started it was quite vigorous. Fermented at 54° and did diacetyl rest for 4 days. The beer smelled bad and didn't taste much better. I'm waiting to see if it lagers out before I decide to dump. There were no signs of any infections or anything. I've read a lot about the Diamond lager yeast and intend to try it on my next batch. I'm not set up to make starters so I usually direct pitch 2 packets of dry yeast with good results.

 

[okiedog]

Time can make quite a difference, but not always. It is my experience that fermentation issues often have a permanent effect on the beer flavor and aroma. It might clean up, it might not. Let us know how it turns out.

 

[Steveruch]

I used about 3/4 cake of a second gen 34/70 from a pilsner I brewed a few months earlier. It took nearly 50 hours to show signs of fermentation, but when it finally started it was quite vigorous. Fermented at 54° and did diacetyl rest for 4 days. The beer smelled bad and didn't taste much better. I'm waiting to see if it lagers out before I decide to dump. There were no signs of any infections or anything. I've read a lot about the Diamond lager yeast and intend to try it on my next batch. I'm not set up to make starters so I usually direct pitch 2 packets of dry yeast with good results.

My next to brew batch is going to be a schwartz bier (extract) and I'll be using diamond. I read somewhere that it's a version of w34/70.

 

[camonick]

My next to brew batch is going to be a schwartz bier (extract) and I'll be using diamond. I read somewhere that it's a version of w34/70.

I've always used 34/70 for my lagers but the Diamond has good reviews and is cheaper...

 

[mabrungard]

I can tell you that a schwarzbier recipe needs to limit the roast malt content. Either by percentage or by mashing duration. I made one with equal 5% doses of carafa3 and chocolate wheat with both mashed for the full mash period. It was just a bit too roasty. Those amounts would probably have been okay if they were mashed at the end.

I’ve got the feeling that the amounts of roast in OP’s recipe are okay, but my personal preference would be to reverse the percentages.

 

[okiedog]

Reversing amount of Choc and Black sounds like a good strategy. Even debittered black malt can be a little sharp in some beers.

 

[camonick]

Will modify my recipe and reverse the quantities so the blackprinz is 6 oz and chocolate malt is 8 oz

 

[okiedog]

That'll lighten the color a bit, but not much.

 

[Miraculix]

Cold steeping the roasted grains and adding the liquid at flameout is a very good way of limiting the roast.

Aim for about 6 to 8% of the grain bill as roasted if you cold steep, as it it's not as effective as if the grains would be mashed.

 

[brewbama]

my latest rendition on tap now is 2-row, half a pound each of med crystal and chocolate. Plenty of roast flavor and dark color.

 

[camonick]

Time can make quite a difference, but not always. It is my experience that fermentation issues often have a permanent effect on the beer flavor and aroma. It might clean up, it might not. Let us know how it turns out.

Kegged this today after a week long cold crash. It tastes better now that it’s cold and most/all the yeast has flocculated. Hopefully tastes even better with some bubbles. I wonder if I was tasting a lot of the yeast still in suspension.

 

[Miraculix]

Kegged this today after a week long cold crash. It tastes better now that it’s cold and most/all the yeast has flocculated. Hopefully tastes even better with some bubbles. I wonder if I was tasting a lot of the yeast still in suspension.

At least for me, suspended yeast is very often the reason for beer not to taste right. It obviously is gone after the yeast is settled, which was always a great relief.

 

[friarsmith]

+ 1 for reversing the chocolate and black malt %'s and either cold-steeping the dark malts or adding to mash right before sparging. FWIW I prefer Carafa II or III to black malt for a Schwarzbier. Seems less acrid and the minimal roast is reminiscent of cold brew coffee.

 

[mongoose33]

Just to give another idea to this; I do a dark lager that is my flagship beer, as it were. Recipe:

7.25 gallons water (BIAB)

5# Maris Otter
5# Munich
6 oz 20L Crystal
4 oz Cara 8 or Carapils
6 oz Chocolate Wheat
6 oz Chocolate Malt

1.5 oz Hallertau 60 min
.75 oz Hallertau 20 min
.75 oz Hallertau 0 min

WLP940 starter. Accelerated Lager schedule; pitch entire starter at 70-72 degrees, hold for 6-8 hours, then lower to 50 degrees. After half attenuated, begin to ramp up temp 4 degrees every 12 hours until 66 degrees. Hold there for 2 days, then drop 6 degrees every 12 hours until 42, then crash.

I like a crisp finish, so I use WLP940 Mexican Lager yeast. I wanted a flavorful dark lager--had never had a satisfying one until I brewed this--which is why the grain bill is what it is. It's a great flavorful beer that finishes crisp but has a lingering dark malt flavor.

The chocolate wheat was a hunch I had to provide additional dark depth but also contribute to head retention.

******

That's the BIAB recipe. I'm now doing LODO and it really accentuates the dark malt, so I had to dial that back a bit. I personally would find the Blackprinz and Choc Malt in OP's recipe to be a bit much for me, but as @mabrungard notes, that's a personal preference.

 

[deere322]

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/dark-rhine-schwarzbier/

I brewed this and it was awesome for such a simple recipe.

 

[beersk]

1554 is fermented with 2124 at ale temps. Or use 34/70 if you've got it. A bunch of years back, I also wanted to clone this beer so I emailed the brewery and that's what they told me.

EDIT:

I found the email correspondence from 2010:

Hi Jesse,

1554 is fermented with a lager yeast at a relatively warm temperature.

Some other notable aspects of the 1554 recipe:

Use some dark malts for coloring and flavor like de-bittered black malt and a little C-120, also use some dextrin malt for body.

Use hops for bittering only, the emphasis is on the malt in this beer.

It’s a pretty straightforward beer. If you have any other questions, let me know.

Cheers,

Chris Holbrook

So I shot him back this recipe:

Thanks for responding. I have kind of formulated a recipe for 5
gallons. How do you think this looks? There's some aromatic malt in
there too, not sure if that's necessary, but I'm sure it can't hurt.
Should I shoot for low 30's for IBUs and in the low 20's for SRM?

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Brewer: Jesse
Boil Size: 6.74 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: RadaR's Brewery
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
10.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 83.33 %
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 6.25 %
0.50 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 4.17 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.17 %
0.25 lb debittered Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 2.08 %
1.00 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (60 min) Hops 17.5 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 15.9 IBU
2 Pkgs Bohemian Lager (Wyeast Labs #2124) Yeast-Lager



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.059 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 0.000 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.016 SG Measured Final Gravity: 0.000 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.57 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.00 %
Bitterness: 33.4 IBU Calories: 0 cal/pint
Est Color: 21.0 SRM Color: Color


And he responded with this:

Sub in Munich for Aromatic and bump the Carapils up to ~2.0 lbs. Est. final gravity should be closer to 1.020.
Shoot for ~156-158 degrees F for a mash rest of about 25-30 minutes.
Not sure of SRM color measurements, but if you can convert, go for ~90 EBC for final color.
30 IBU sounds about right.

Have fun,
Chris

Brewer

New Belgium Brewing Company.


I'm not sure how relevant any of this is now for their current recipe, but 2lbs of dextrin malt always sounded ridiculously high to me.

 

[camonick]

1554 is fermented with 2124 at ale temps. Or use 34/70 if you've got it. A bunch of years back, I also wanted to clone this beer so I emailed the brewery and that's what they told me.

EDIT:

I found the email correspondence from 2010:

Hi Jesse,

1554 is fermented with a lager yeast at a relatively warm temperature.

Some other notable aspects of the 1554 recipe:

Use some dark malts for coloring and flavor like de-bittered black malt and a little C-120, also use some dextrin malt for body.

Use hops for bittering only, the emphasis is on the malt in this beer.

It’s a pretty straightforward beer. If you have any other questions, let me know.

Cheers,

Chris Holbrook

So I shot him back this recipe:

Thanks for responding. I have kind of formulated a recipe for 5
gallons. How do you think this looks? There's some aromatic malt in
there too, not sure if that's necessary, but I'm sure it can't hurt.
Should I shoot for low 30's for IBUs and in the low 20's for SRM?

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Brewer: Jesse
Boil Size: 6.74 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: RadaR's Brewery
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
10.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 83.33 %
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 6.25 %
0.50 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 4.17 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.17 %
0.25 lb debittered Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 2.08 %
1.00 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (60 min) Hops 17.5 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 15.9 IBU
2 Pkgs Bohemian Lager (Wyeast Labs #2124) Yeast-Lager



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.059 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 0.000 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.016 SG Measured Final Gravity: 0.000 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.57 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.00 %
Bitterness: 33.4 IBU Calories: 0 cal/pint
Est Color: 21.0 SRM Color: Color


And he responded with this:

Sub in Munich for Aromatic and bump the Carapils up to ~2.0 lbs. Est. final gravity should be closer to 1.020.
Shoot for ~156-158 degrees F for a mash rest of about 25-30 minutes.
Not sure of SRM color measurements, but if you can convert, go for ~90 EBC for final color.
30 IBU sounds about right.

Have fun,
Chris

Brewer

New Belgium Brewing Company.


I'm not sure how relevant any of this is now for their current recipe, but 2lbs of dextrin malt always sounded ridiculously high to me.

Thanks for the reply. That information is interesting, but doesn’t match the current description on their website. The note about the FG is encouraging however being that mine ended around 1.017-18 and is a little sweeter than I expected. I’m going to let my batch finish carbonating and do a side by side comparison.

 

[beersk]

Thanks for the reply. That information is interesting, but doesn’t match the current description on their website. The note about the FG is encouraging however being that mine ended around 1.017-18 and is a little sweeter than I expected. I’m going to let my batch finish carbonating and do a side by side comparison.

1554 is a fairly sweet beer. It has probably changed a bit over the years. This was close to 10 years ago that I emailed them about this - January of 2010. It most likely has changed since then.