Sanitizing Solution Needed in PRV for Pressure Ferment?

[Franktalk]

A simple question regarding the mixing of O2 with Co2 from pressure fermenting. I have a Spike Flex + and I pressure ferment lagers and spund ales for the free carbonation. So, I have a Spike PRV that has a cup for sanitizing solution through which any C02 beyond the 15 psi that the fermenter holds passes through it. The question is: must I fill the cup, so that when it is releasing excess pressure/CO2 no O2 can mix in with the CO2 within the fermenter?

 

[sibelman]

Spike sez:

Sanitizer Cup - This can be filled with sanitizer to create an airlock. This is similar to a blowoff bucket or airlock bubbler.

Note they say "can" rather than "should" or "must."

PRVs are not supposed to allow air to enter, but only allow fermentation gas to exit. So, I take it the cup is for when the PRV is set to zero which might allow reverse air flow, and/or so you can see bubbling. If you've got it set for pressure, the sanitizer should be optional.

You might want to confirm with Spike, of course, especially because their PRV seems quite distinct from other designs.

 

[DuncB]

The liquid airlock is not needed when you have the spunding valve set to a pressure, only needed if it was open ( as if not in the system) in that case it acts as an airlock similar to a bubbler or blowoff .

 

[We2smart]

The liquid airlock is not needed when you have the spunding valve set to a pressure, only needed if it was open ( as if not in the system) in that case it acts as an airlock similar to a bubbler or blowoff .

I have a Spike PRV and currently am pressure fermenting a Marzen Lager.

I always put sanitizer in my PRV regardless how I use it. It's main purpose is for safety as well as control PSI. Sanitizer in PRV during pressure fermentation also allows me a visual of Yeast activity so I do not have to take a large sample for measuring FG Final Gravity, assuming you are not using a wireless hydrometer.

 

[DuncB]

I didn't realise that the PRV is not reliable at keeping the pressure you set in the vessel.
But if that was a real issue you'd get the sanitiser sucked back into the fermenter when you cold crashed your pressure ferment?
Bubbling is not a great indicator of ferment activity, off gassing goes on for a while after ferment is finished gravity drop. Noted by the ispindel, or it's showing your spunding valve is not working correctly and it's not holding tte pressure you set it at.

 

[We2smart]

I didn't realise that the PRV is not reliable at keeping the pressure you set in the vessel.
But if that was a real issue you'd get the sanitiser sucked back into the fermenter when you cold crashed your pressure ferment?
Bubbling is not a great indicator of ferment activity, off gassing goes on for a while after ferment is finished gravity drop. Noted by the ispindel, or it's showing your spunding valve is not working correctly and it's not holding tte pressure you set it at.

I don't have any issues holding pressure at a certain level with the PRV all-in-one by Spike Brewing. If your PRV is not holding pressure you have a leak!

 

[We2smart]

I don't have any issues holding pressure at a certain level with the PRV all-in-one by Spike Brewing. If your PRV is not holding pressure you have a leak!

I love the wireless hydrometer. I just ordered the tilt mini pro hydrometer. My Kegland RAPT PILL was great until I got a CF5 Stainless steel unitank. See attached

 

[DuncB]

I don't have any issues holding pressure at a certain level with the PRV all-in-one by Spike Brewing. If your PRV is not holding pressure you have a leak!

I'm puzzled by your answers, Not sure how having sanitiser in the PRV helps with you needing to take a smaller sample.

Sanitizer in PRV during pressure fermentation also allows me a visual of Yeast activity so I do not have to take a large sample for measuring FG Final Gravity, assuming you are not using a wireless hydrometer.

My spunding valves do not leak, but you are using the sanitiser to give you bubbling clues which aren't reliable for ferment assessment.

The Op question was is sanitiser needed in the PRV and it isn't.

 

[We2smart]

I'm puzzled by your answers, Not sure how having sanitiser in the PRV helps with you needing to take a smaller sample.

My spunding valves do not leak, but you are using the sanitiser to give you bubbling clues which aren't reliable for ferment assessment.

The Op question was is sanitiser needed in the PRV and it isn't.

I am sorry, I am typing from a phone, when I take a sample in order to get a Gravity reading, I use a 8oz of beer. If I treat the PRV like a blow-off, I can look for no activity and make a educated guess if the beer is finished. Once my tilt mini-pro hydrometer comes I will use that. Spike recommends you fill the PRV with sanitizer when doing pressure fermentation. They say it reduces oxygen and germs from entering. I never questioned it so it may be a waste!

 

[DuncB]

I understand now.
With a refractometer you only need about 2 ml. This will give you a more accurate reading than a floating electronic one.

But I rely on my ispindel once the gravity doesn't change the ferment is done, even if it's skewed by the krausen.

 

[We2smart]

I understand now.
With a refractometer you only need about 2 ml. This will give you a more accurate reading than a floating electronic one.

But I rely on my ispindel once the gravity doesn't change the ferment is done, even if it's skewed by the krausen.

I have a refractometer, several of them. They are inaccurate after Fermentation starts. I do have refractometer that's digital but it needs the app to account for Carbonation, temp and sugar! Unless you spend $200+ the cheap ones are hard to read after Fermentation.

 

[mashdar]

There is another PRV for emergency blow off, yes?

 

[We2smart]

There is another PRV for emergency blow off, yes?

I use my PRV for everything except for Oxygenation. I use the blow-off for that

 

[We2smart]

I use my PRV for everything except for Oxygenation. I use the blow-off for that

 

[mashdar]

If you are using it for a primary purpose (spunding), you lack an emergency blow off. It's like calling one parachute your primary and backup chute. The point of the emergency PRV is for when the primarry pressure control fails.

Is that how they sell the spike flex + ?

edit: I found a post by an official spike account saying the spunding valve can be the PRV too "due to the huge 1.5" full bore port". This is contrary to engineering best practice, but I guess you've got somebody to sue if it turns into a projectile in your basement.

FWIW SS Brewtech says to keep the fixed PRV for a safety. This makes me wonder about the spike design practices... https://www.ssbrewtech.com/products/sspunding-valve

 

[IDMaynard]

I have a refractometer, several of them. They are inaccurate after Fermentation starts. I do have refractometer that's digital but it needs the app to account for Carbonation, temp and sugar! Unless you spend $200+ the cheap ones are hard to read after Fermentation.

BeerSmith uses an algorithm to compensate for pre and post fermenting wort that has been very accurate in my experience, not sure of BrewFather uses the same algo or not.

 

[We2smart]

BeerSmith uses an algorithm to compensate for pre and post fermenting wort that has been very accurate in my experience, not sure of BrewFather uses the same algo or not have brewfather but I do have

 

[We2smart]

I have brewfather! Thanks I will check it out! A little too late for me, I already ordered the tilt mini-pro. I am a computer engineer and love gadgets. I have a very nice $40 unit that's really nice but like I said, when compared to a floating hydrometer it was way off! I also have the little cheap one that you hold up to the light. That one for me is the worst!

Link to a nice Refractometer:
FJDynamics Digital Smart Brix Refractometer for Coffee TDS 0-55% with APP, ±0.1% High Precision, Easy to Use/Read/Calibrate for Brewing Wine, Beer, Fruits, Urea, Resolution 0.05%, with ATC 5-45°C https://a.co/d/iWKIvgX

 

[We2smart]

If you are using it for a primary purpose (spunding), you lack an emergency blow off. It's like calling one parachute your primary and backup chute. The point of the emergency PRV is for when the primarry pressure control fails.

Is that how they sell the spike flex + ?

edit: I found a post by an official spike account saying the spunding valve can be the PRV too "due to the huge 1.5" full bore port". This is contrary to engineering best practice, but I guess you've got somebody to sue if it turns into a projectile in your basement.

FWIW SS Brewtech says to keep the fixed PRV for a safety. This makes me wonder about the spike design practices... https://www.ssbrewtech.com/products/sspunding-valve

I recommend you see video below. You are totally incorrect on the Spike PRV use. This video shows you why Spike is one of the leaders in the game. It also compares its PRV to all the others. True safety is key but it's definitely capable of spunding and PRV. They really do the same function. Release pressure. Spunding does nothing but release pressure to maintain a level of pressure. PRV valve, does the samething but much better. All those cheesy spunding valves are a disaster waiting to happen. They have very little room when hops clogg them up. That's your explosion

 

[We2smart]

If you are using it for a primary purpose (spunding), you lack an emergency blow off. It's like calling one parachute your primary and backup chute. The point of the emergency PRV is for when the primarry pressure control fails.

Is that how they sell the spike flex + ?

edit: I found a post by an official spike account saying the spunding valve can be the PRV too "due to the huge 1.5" full bore port". This is contrary to engineering best practice, but I guess you've got somebody to sue if it turns into a projectile in your basement.

FWIW SS Brewtech says to keep the fixed PRV for a safety. This makes me wonder about the spike design practices... https://www.ssbrewtech.com/products/sspunding-valve

It also looks like SS Brewtech is also come out with a Spike PRV clone advertising as a spunding and prv all-in-one

 

[We2smart]

I am sorry, I am typing from a phone, when I take a sample in order to get a Gravity reading, I use a 8oz of beer. If I treat the PRV like a blow-off, I can look for no activity and make a educated guess if the beer is finished. Once my tilt mini-pro hydrometer comes I will use that. Spike recommends you fill the PRV with sanitizer when doing pressure fermentation. They say it reduces oxygen and germs from entering. I never questioned it so it may be a waste!

Duncb take a look at the spike PRV video I posted. This will explain how I use the PRV sanitizer as an airlock which allows you to monitor your Fermentation!

 

[IDMaynard]

I have brewfather! Thanks I will check it out! A little too late for me, I already ordered the tilt mini-pro. I am a computer engineer and love gadgets. I have a very nice $40 unit that's really nice but like I said, when compared to a floating hydrometer it was way off! I also have the little cheap one that you hold up to the light. That one for me is the worst!

Link to a nice Refractometer:
FJDynamics Digital Smart Brix Refractometer for Coffee TDS 0-55% with APP, ±0.1% High Precision, Easy to Use/Read/Calibrate for Brewing Wine, Beer, Fruits, Urea, Resolution 0.05%, with ATC 5-45°C https://a.co/d/iWKIvgX

I have two tilts (not the pro series), I found two issues with them, one is that the signal is very weak and once it is in the conical you can lose it. also once the conical builds up pressure I lose the signal. I built a tilt bridge to try and compensate for the signal issue (it is hit & miss also).

 

[IDMaynard]

For anyone interested, here is a calculator that will compensate your refractometer reading during fermentation. I believe you have to have a pre yeast reading though in order for the conversion to work properly. (I know in BeerSmith that is required). Hope it helps.
http://www.onebeer.net/refractometer.shtml

 

[We2smart]

I have two tilts (not the pro series), I found two issues with them, one is that the signal is very weak and once it is in the conical you can lose it. also once the conical builds up pressure I lose the signal. I built a tilt bridge to try and compensate for the signal issue (it is hit & miss also).

I had the same problem with my RAPT PILL. The NEW Tilt mini-pro will work in your Stainless Steel Conical because it has a stronger signal. It's also much smaller so it can fit in a 1.5 TC hole. $175 little pricey but nit as much as the pro. The first versions were actually designed for plastic and glass top fermenters. I am a computer engineer so I like getting stats in real time and not wasting beer pulling samples or risk exposure to whatever.

 

[We2smart]

For anyone interested, here is a calculator that will compensate your refractometer reading during fermentation. I believe you have to have a pre yeast reading though in order for the conversion to work properly. (I know in BeerSmith that is required). Hope it helps.
http://www.onebeer.net/refractometer.shtml

The wireless device I posted early comes with an app that does all conversions.

 

[mashdar]

I recommend you see video below. You are totally incorrect on the Spike PRV use. This video shows you why Spike is one of the leaders in the game. It also compares its PRV to all the others. True safety is key but it's definitely capable of spunding and PRV. They really do the same function. Release pressure. Spunding does nothing but release pressure to maintain a level of pressure. PRV valve, does the samething but much better. All those cheesy spunding valves are a disaster waiting to happen. They have very little room when hops clogg them up. That's your explosion

They can say what they want, but a really fancy primary parachute doesn't alleviate the need for a backup. This is a hard lesson that seems to repeatedly be learned in the field rather than in the classroom.

edit: And here's what SSbrewtech says:
"Lastly, a final note on safety, always leave the fixed-pressure PRV included with the Unitank in place, and never exceed the maximum rated working pressure of the vessel at any time during operation."

 

[We2smart]

They can say what they want, but a really fancy primary parachute doesn't alleviate the need for a backup. This is a hard lesson that seems to repeatedly be learned in the field rather than in the classroom.

edit: And here's what SSbrewtech says:
"Lastly, a final note on safety, always leave the fixed-pressure PRV included with the Unitank in place, and never exceed the maximum rated working pressure of the vessel at any time during operation."

I agree with Ssbrewtech when it comes to their equipment, you should allow for flaws, or mistakes! That's not the case for Spike Unitanks made in the USA!

 

[mashdar]

Food for thought. Stuck valve not 2 months ago.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/spike-prv-was-stuck.731438/

 

[DuncB]

Duncb take a look at the spike PRV video I posted. This will explain how I use the PRV sanitizer as an airlock which allows you to monitor your Fermentation!

I'm surprised that they call it an airlock, it isn't an airlock as the valve before this is one way and is the lock. It's just a visual indicator that gas is escaping the valve.
I don't see that there is a failsafe on this system, if it blocks breaks you will overbuild.
I use a clear fermenter rated to 35 psi and have spunded to that pressure when needed, I can easily see the ferment process.

I'm no engineer, but Boeing had a few issues with no redundancy on their 737 Max, I'm sure they thought it would be okay.

 

[We2smart]

I'm surprised that they call it an airlock, it isn't an airlock as the valve before this is one way and is the lock. It's just a visual indicator that gas is escaping the valve.
I don't see that there is a failsafe on this system, if it blocks breaks you will overbuild.
I use a clear fermenter rated to 35 psi and have spunded to that pressure when needed, I can easily see the ferment process.

I'm no engineer, but Boeing had a few issues with no redundancy on their 737 Max, I'm sure they thought it would be okay.

They don't call it an air lock, it's a PRV! They are just letting you know that it can also operate as an blow-off tube. The only airlock I am familiar with are the for plastic and glass fermenter or should I say the low end devices. Does not matter because I use the titl to read my SG and I use a hydrometer as a backup. The Spike lids come with 3-4 TC ports so you can configure it anyway you want. If you want two or three PRV for backup so be it. I wonder what kind of backup PRV do you use on your clear fermenter? Is it glass or plastic? Do you have multiports in order to backup your PRV?

 

[We2smart]

Food for thought. Stuck valve not 2 months ago.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/spike-prv-was-stuck.731438/

It appears you had an old version of the PRV. I have the newer plastic knob so I have never had an issue.

 

[DuncB]

They don't call it an air lock, it's a PRV! They are just letting you know that it can also operate as an blow-off tube. The only airlock I am familiar with are the for plastic and glass fermenter or should I say the low end devices. Does not matter because I use the titl to read my SG and I use a hydrometer as a backup. The Spike lids come with 3-4 TC ports so you can configure it anyway you want. If you want two or three PRV for backup so be it. I wonder what kind of backup PRV do you use on your clear fermenter? Is it glass or plastic? Do you have multiports in order to backup your PRV?

Adam the engineer at 1120 says " serving as your airlock " it really isn't.
I have a plastic fermenter, it has an additional pressure relief valve and also the seal between lid and fermenter are the points of fail rather than the vessel body.
Blow off tubes are only airlock with neutral pressure or if positive gas production occurs in the fermenter. If this isn't happening then the liquid in the airlock is sucked back into the fermenter and air will be as well. This shouldn't happen with the Spike because the valve is non return.

 

[We2smart]

That is true! Not sure how we got on the airlock conversation but my point is, the Spike all and one PRV, serves all my needs except when applying Oxygen via Carbstone or non-pressure Fermentation. I have also used both PRV as a backup to the blow-off. When I cold crash, i apply psi to keep suck back and to start Carbonation process. I do not have to worry about exposing my beer to oxygen and outside elements changing between the two.

 

[DuncB]

Just leave the lid off and put a tea towel on the top when you open ferment.
Or get radical and use a bucket!

 

[Graham H]

are the for plastic and glass fermenter or should I say the low end devices.

Should you say that? Since you asked—no, I don’t believe you should.