Same weird flavor in three different brews?

[OneEarUp]

Hello All,

Very new to the homebrew scene, but I've had a taste of it and I'm loving it so far. One small hangup, though - of the three batches that I've seen through the process, they all seem to have an underlying soapy/mineral/astringent flavor that dominates the nose/palate and ranges from overshadowing the flavors of the beer to completely ruining it.

All three were extract batches - in chronological order, Amber Ale from NB, Belgian Trippel from Love2Brew, and Northern English Brown from Love2Brew. All three have this same weird soapy quality to them. The Amber was the worst, the Trippel has it the least, and the Brown is somewhere in the middle. At first I thought the problem with the Amber was I left it in the primary for too long, so I have been very diligent with prescribed fermentation times since then and have proven that is not the problem.

Now the only real constant between the three is my water. I am on a private well, so no chlorination or anything but it is incredibly hard. So I'm thinking I need to test and treat my water on a per-brew basis? But that's not why I'm here.

My real question is - these have all tasted fine, if not downright good, prior to bottling. So is there something broken in my bottling process, or is the water still the culprit and the soapy/astringent flavors don't come out until it's carbonated for some other reason? I'm carbonating with corn sugar dissolved in boiling water. I'm incredibly disappointed that something that tasted so good out of the fermenter can be ruined by something I'm doing wrong.

The brown ale is the only one that really pours with a head (and even then I have to be aggressive with it) so am I not rinsing the bottles well enough in the cleaning process? Or is that a separate issue that doesn't affect the flavor so much?

I have my first two all-grain batches in their primaries right now. I'd love to figure this out before I have to bottle them to avoid messing them up (if I haven't already done so).

 

[Draken]

How's your fermentation temp controlled? Are you keeping it in range? Even after fermentation is complete temp is important. Too high a temp can cause fatty acids in the trub to break down and form soap....

Also how are yoy cleaning your bottles? Or serving glasses?

 

[Bosh]

Soapy often comes from the lipids in yeast cells if you have too much dead yeast. With the amber being the worst and being left in primary the longest I'd assume the problem is dead yeast. As Draken says high temps don't help with that.

You said you've been "very diligent with prescribed fermentation times" since then. What are those times? Some kits give bad advice.

Maybe also be more careful to avoid getting too much yeast in your bottles? Chilling before bottling helps get the yeast to sink down.

 

[MaryB]

Are you treating your water in any way? That may offer a clue also.

from the beer fault chart

Soapy
Soapy flavors can caused by not washing your glass very well, but they can also be produced by the fermentation conditions. If you leave the beer in the primary fermentor for a relatively long period of time after primary fermentation is over ("long" depends on the style and other fermentation factors), soapy flavors can result from the breakdown of fatty acids in the trub. Soap is, by definition, the salt of a fatty acid; so you are literally tasting soap.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...de.pdf&usg=AFQjCNG3gi6-841ciiGs7AMxrvEJf8bjMg

 

[OneEarUp]

Hey guys, thanks for the responses. To answer your questions:

Fermentation temp is controlled by the ambient temp in the house. Old farmhouse = some fluctuation and generally cooler in the winter, warmer in the summer. Brewed the amber while the heat was still on, maybe it was too close to a radiator. Belgian was done during the spring, spring was mild, house was generally on the cooler side. Brown was done more recently, it may have had one or two hot days in the fermentor. Finally put the AC units in a couple weeks ago and trying to keep the brew room around 70-72, but maybe that's still too high?

All three kits had me leave it in the primary for two weeks. The Belgian went into a secondary for two weeks then was bottled. The other two were bottled right after the primary (siphoned into a racking bucket).

I am not treating my water in any way after it comes out of the faucet. It goes from the ground to a two-stage arsenic removal filter to the tap to the beer. No water softener or chlorination or anything.

I'm still mystified as to why they have tasted good PRIOR to bottling and then developed the soapy flavor after bottle conditioning. Makes me think that I'm getting yeast in the bottle and then holding the bottles too warm?

It's also worth noting that the soapy content varies from bottle to bottle on the brown ale (not sure about the Belgian). I had five browns last night and some were MUCH worse than others.

 

[OswaldvW]

Can you describe your cleaning and sanitation process for your bottles, bottling bucket and all your transfer equipment? What type of chemicals do you use?

 

[OneEarUp]

Bottles are cleaned with a brush/soapy water (Dawn dish soap), rinsed in clean water, sanitized in properly mixed Star San.

Bottling bucket & transfer equipment are cleaned similarly.

 

[HomeDrewBrew]

Try an all grain batch and see if it shows up again.

 

[Biscuits]

This is a tough situation to weed out...but I think there is an easy place to start. Try brewing something with RO water and see if it happens again, that will rule out your water and you can start taking a look at equipment/process. My gut tells me it might be something that is there all along...even when you taste it from the fermentor but it doesn't present itself until it is carbonated. There may be a precursor present that doesn't announce itself until CO2 is added.

Also, stay away from using dish soap, even with a decent rinse, residue can still be left behind in the bottles. I keep it simple and rinse my beer bottles with hot water soon after pouring and let them dry upside down and the sterilize right before bottling....it would be a lie to say I have never had a bottle gush, but out of the 30 or so batches I have done, I could count them on one hand.

This is the joy/curse of homebrewing...you will likely resolve this issue just to uncover another that you need to flush out. Mind you, the beer will more than likely improve with each step...but it will feel like a never ending cycle.

 

[brewstergalVT]

Bottles are cleaned with a brush/soapy water (Dawn dish soap), rinsed in clean water, sanitized in properly mixed Star San.

Bottling bucket & transfer equipment are cleaned similarly.

Instead of soap use PBW (powdered brewery wash) by 5 Star for cleaning your bottles and brewing equipment, rinse and then use Star San. I'm betting your soapy flavor will be gone.

 

[IslandLizard]

Instead of soap use PBW (powdered brewery wash) by 5 Star for cleaning your bottles and brewing equipment, rinse and then use Star San. I'm betting your soapy flavor will be gone.

That^

Now at $8+ for a 1 pound "tub" of PBW, you can make your own from (generic) Oxiclean and TSP/90 for less than $2 a pound.

I also use (cheap) washing soda (laundry booster, not baking soda) for most routine cleaning, and hot homemade PBW for where it counts.

Now that may not alleviate the soapy, mineral, astringent taste completely. Next time brew with RO water from your local Walmart/Supermarket @ $0.39 a gallon, bring your own (clean) jugs or container.

Minerals can cause havoc with beer flavor, iron and manganese being abundant culprits, among many others.

 

[TheMadKing]

I would also recommend switching to a cleaner yeast that's tolerant of warmer temps, and bottle after about 10 days (whenever primary fermentation is complete verified by a hydrometer). Try US-05 and get it off the trub when it's done.

I've had a similar soapy taste show up in a lager that I messed up my temp control on, and left it in primary too long. I'm fairly certain I had dead yeast from the temperature stress. It got better with cold conditioning but never was very good.

Also what hops are you using? Some hops have a taste that is perceived as soapy to some people if they are used in dry-hopping (hallertauer Mittelfrueh, and Mt. Hood specifically)

 

[Draken]

I'm blaming the dish soap. I like the soak in PBW, rinse and then starsan method. My buddy had a dishwasher with a sanitize option, so he would PBW, then sanitize in the dishwasher on the top rack. Didn't use soap, just ridiculously hot water. Plus on the top rack, they are all upside down and very convient to grab when filling.

As others said, avoid dish soap everywhere in the brewing process if possible.

 

[OswaldvW]

I would not use dish soap at all. PBW is the way to go, then thoroughly rinse with hot water (each bottle 2 or 3 times).

I don't even use Star San for my bottles. I bake my bottles in the oven at 350ºF for one hour after rinsing. They go in the oven with little aluminum foil lids on them. They are then not sanitized, but sterilized and without the addition of chemicals.

Try without dish soap. If that still doesn't work, try the RO or distilled water idea to use water that has absolutely no minerals in it.

Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[MaryB]

Dawn dish soap! You nailed the problem. That stuff leaves a film behind on everything no matter how much you rinse! Use PBW to clean your bottles.

Bottles are cleaned with a brush/soapy water (Dawn dish soap), rinsed in clean water, sanitized in properly mixed Star San.

Bottling bucket & transfer equipment are cleaned similarly.