Saison Under Pressure

[mistermaker]

TL;DR: I want to ferment WYEAST 3726 under pressure, how would you recommend me to do it.

Hello everyone,

Recently I received a fermentasaurus snubnose.
I have always brewed in a bucket and I was wanting to go into pressure fermentation.

This will be a first time for me with the snubnose and I want to brew a saison style beer.
I had previously picked WLP565 to do the jo,b but found out that it was very pressure sensitive and had a tendency to stall.
I then changed my mind for a Wyeast 3726 farmhouse ale yeast.

I also absolutly want to dry-hop this saison.

Here is the fermentation profile I came up with after all my research :
19 °C - 0 Bar - 1 days - Primary <-blow-off tube as airlock
19.7 °C - 0 Bar - 1 days - Primary
20.4 °C - 0 Bar - 1 days - Primary
21.1 °C - 0 Bar - 1 days - Primary
21.8 °C - 0 Bar - 1 days - Primary
22.5 °C - 0 Bar - 1 days - Primary
23.2 °C - 0 Bar - 1 days - Primary
24 °C - 1 Bar - 5 days - Primary <- dry-hop at day 8 to day 14
0 °C - 1 Bar - 2 days - Cold Crash

>(1bar ~ 15PSI)<

Then I would transfer it to a keg in closed transfer.

Do you think it is a good idea ?
I documented myself alot and I was wondering if I wasn't missing on something.

Thank-you, in advance, for your answers.

 

[monkeymath]

This seems a bit counter-intuitive to me. Fermenting under pressure has the purpose of reducing the production of esters, no? Then why pair that with an expressive yeast... ?

 

[mistermaker]

I know, this is mainly why I'm asking.
And this is why I left it 7 days with no pressure in order for those esters to be created.
Here, I am mainly putting it under pressure because of the dry-hop (in order to keep those hop aromas) and also for a closed transfer in a keg when I will be finished with fermentation.
If you think I shouldn't do it under pressure at all I will listen to you.
I have not much experience with this method (if not at all) and this is why I am asking first.
Thank you for your answer.

 

[monkeymath]

I know, this is mainly why I'm asking.
And this is why I left it 7 days with no pressure in order for those esters to be created.
Here, I am mainly putting it under pressure because of the dry-hop (in order to keep those hop aromas) and also for a closed transfer in a keg when I will be finished with fermentation.
If you think I shouldn't do it under pressure at all I will listen to you.
I have not much experience with this method (if not at all) and this is why I am asking first.
Thank you for your answer.

Sorry, I simply didn't understand the reasoning behind doing it. I don't have the equipment to pressurise and had only heard of it in the context of reducing ester formation. But after 5 days, that should mostly be done, so it shouldn't be too harmful, I think.
As I said, I have zero expertise here.

 

[Qhrumphf]

So your plan is to dry hop at the tail end of fermentation (but while it's still active) you and then seal it with a spunding valve?

I think that's a great plan. Even with a Saison.

Just don't dry hop it when it's been under pressure (unless you've rigged up a system to dry hop closed while it's still under pressure) or you might make a big mess.

Depending on where the gravity is at that point, it may or may not generate enough pressure on its own to hit 1bar.

 

[McKnuckle]

You don't have to ferment entirely under pressure in order to use that capability of the Fermentasaurus. You can leverage it only for spunding at the end, where you trap the CO2 from the last few points and carbonate the beer. That way it doesn't interfere with the yeast profile.

 

[mistermaker]

So your plan is to dry hop at the tail end of fermentation (but while it's still active) you and then seal it with a spunding valve?

I think that's a great plan. Even with a Saison.

Just don't dry hop it when it's been under pressure (unless you've rigged up a system to dry hop closed while it's still under pressure) or you might make a big mess.

Depending on where the gravity is at that point, it may or may not generate enough pressure on its own to hit 1bar.

Thank you,
My plan would be to had up 1 bar myself with a sodastream can and then put a spunding valve in order to keep it at 1bar.

Don't worry, I know what a dry hop volcano is (I have watched Drhans ).

I will also monitor my wort gravity troughout the fermentation in order to be assured that it will work great.

Thank you again.

 

[mistermaker]

You don't have to ferment entirely under pressure in order to use that capability of the Fermentasaurus. You can leverage it only for spunding at the end, where you trap the CO2 from the last few points and carbonate the beer. That way it doesn't interfere with the yeast profile.

You might not have seen it but it's not under pressure at the start. As I've mentionned it before I will put a blowoff tube at the start of the fermentation until day 8 were I am going to had 1 bar of pressure.

Thank you though

 

[Qhrumphf]

I would try to target your dry hop/spunding about 1°P/4 SG points above your expected terminal gravity, as opposed to a preset timeline. May take longer than your timeline to get there, or could be faster. In most cases I'd expect faster, but diastaticus yeasts can really take their time towards the end of fermentation.

 

[mistermaker]

I would try to target your dry hop/spunding about 1°P/4 SG points above your expected terminal gravity, as opposed to a preset timeline. May take longer than your timeline to get there, or could be faster. In most cases I'd expect faster, but diastaticus yeasts can really take their time towards the end of fermentation.

Thank you !
I was just about to research for that info
Do you have experience with WYeast3726 ?

Edit : It is Wyeast3726 not WLP3726 sorry

 

[Elric]

i have never used 3726, so maybe it is different, but I know that as a whole saison yeasts are very pressure sensitive and won't perform properly with even a bit of pressure. Is this one known to be less pressure sensitive and that's part of why you wanted to try pressure fermenting it?

 

[Qhrumphf]

If they were that pressure sensitive you couldn't bottle condition with them. That theory doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

 

[mistermaker]

i have never used 3726, so maybe it is different, but I know that as a whole saison yeasts are very pressure sensitive and won't perform properly with even a bit of pressure. Is this one known to be less pressure sensitive and that's part of why you wanted to try pressure fermenting it?

According to what I read Wyeast 3726 is not known to be pressure sensitive and will tend to perform as any ale yeast (I repaet it, I am not an expert and have no experience with this yeast wich is why I am asking for your advice.)

Yes this is mainly an experiment to see if dry hopping under pressure with this yeast is a good idea or not.

I will try my recepie in a few month and will adapt myself to the performence of the yeast.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Since true pressure fermentation (as opposed to mere spunding as the OP is doing) is known to suppress esters and typically done with lagers, a quasi-relevant example: I tried pressure fermenting a hefe yeast at about 10 PSI. It made the banana completely non-existent and shifted the balance so heavily to clove that it was almost undrinkable (as opposed to the normal slightly to the clove side balance I work for normally). True pressure fermentation of a Saison yeast could perform similarly- all phenol, no fruit.

 

[mistermaker]

If someone want to see the whole recipie h

Since true pressure fermentation (as opposed to mere spunding as the OP is doing) is known to suppress esters and typically done with lagers, a quasi-relevant example: I tried pressure fermenting a hefe yeast at about 10 PSI. It made the banana completely non-existent and shifted the balance so heavily to clove that it was almost undrinkable (as opposed to the normal slightly to the clove side balance I work for normally). True pressure fermentation of a Saison yeast could perform similarly- all phenol, no fruit.

Yes that's what I read online and was wanting to confirm trought this thread thank-you

I will let everyone know if it was a success or not when I will be finished Thanks for thoses advice they were very precious.

 

[Elric]

According to what I read Wyeast 3726 is not known to be pressure sensitive and will tend to perform as any ale yeast (I repaet it, I am not an expert and have no experience with this yeast wich is why I am asking for your advice.)

Yes this is mainly an experiment to see if dry hopping under pressure with this yeast is a good idea or not.

I will try my recepie in a few month and will adapt myself to the performence of the yeast.

Thanks, I wasn't sure if that was your goal or not. I will say I was really let down when I pressure fermented an esb, as I did not get any of the yeast character one wants in an esb and the resulting beer was only so-so. I look forward to hearing how your experiment turns out!

 

[Vale71]

i have never used 3726, so maybe it is different, but I know that as a whole saison yeasts are very pressure sensitive and won't perform properly with even a bit of pressure. Is this one known to be less pressure sensitive and that's part of why you wanted to try pressure fermenting it?

The "pressure sensitiviy" is a baseless myth. Could you please stop misleading people with it?

 

[VikeMan]

Sadly, the "pressure sensitivity" thing will probably never die. FWIW, I've keg conditioned carbonated beers with 3724 that ultimately reached 50+ PSI, exactly as expected by the temperature and amount of priming sugar. And there was nothing particularly slow about it.

 

[mistermaker]

The "pressure sensitiviy" is a baseless myth. Could you please stop misleading people with it?

Really? I saw a podcast about pressure sensitivity of WLP565 ( more precisely back-pressure sensitivity).
Were the guys wrong about the experiment they made?

 

[mistermaker]

Sadly, the "pressure sensitivity" thing will probably never die. FWIW, I've keg conditioned carbonated beers with 3724 that ultimately reached 50+ PSI, exactly as expected by the temperature and amount of priming sugar. And there was nothing particularly slow about it.

Great I hope mine turns out like this !
If I'm not wrong you refermented it in a keg just like you would do in a bottle?
Would you recommend this even tho I have all the stuff needed to pressurise it with a sodastream cannister?
(I am on a budget and I like cutting expenses here and there so...)

 

[VikeMan]

If I'm not wrong you refermented it in a keg just like you would do in a bottle?

Yes.

Would you recommend this even tho I have all the stuff needed to pressurise it with a sodastream cannister?

I would recommend it if you're trying to emulate Saison Dupont or another bottle conditioned saison where a fairly significant amount of the ABV comes from the priming sugar. And in my experience it does tend to get you to the "fine" bubble creamy foam faster than in a force carbonated keg, if that matters to you.

That said, most of my beers are closed transferred and force carbonated.

 

[mistermaker]

Yes.



I would recommend it if you're trying to emulate Saison Dupont or another bottle conditioned saison where a fairly significant amount of the ABV comes from the priming sugar. And in my experience it does tend to get you to the "fine" bubble creamy foam faster than in a force carbonated keg, if that matters to you.

That said, most of my beers are closed transferred and force carbonated.

Many thanks

 

[Qhrumphf]

Really? I saw a podcast about pressure sensitivity of WLP565 ( more precisely back-pressure sensitivity).
Were the guys wrong about the experiment they made?

I presume their experiment was "open fermentation" vs not. The "backpressure sensitivity" explanation for this yeast stalling defies physics but was said by a big name in homebrew once (with no evidence I can recall) and as been passed around as dogma since. Barometric changes can easily overshadow the small amount of hydrostatic pressure of an airlock. Not to mention what I and @VikeMan said- you can bottle condition with it. Which is obviously contrary to "pressure sensitivity". There must be another explanation for why that yeast is prone to stalling. It's not pressure.

 

[mistermaker]

I presume their experiment was "open fermentation" vs not. The "backpressure sensitivity" explanation for this yeast stalling defies physics but was said by a big name in homebrew once (with no evidence I can recall) and as been passed around as dogma since. Barometric changes can easily overshadow the small amount of hydrostatic pressure of an airlock. Not to mention what I and @VikeMan said- you can bottle condition with it. Which is obviously contrary to "pressure sensitivity". There must be another explanation for why that yeast is prone to stalling. It's not pressure.

Ok great thank you !

 

[Vale71]

Really? I saw a podcast about pressure sensitivity of WLP565 ( more precisely back-pressure sensitivity).
Were the guys wrong about the experiment they made?

Yes. This just proves that anybody can say anything they want on the Internet as long as they sound convincing. The very premise of such "experiments" is ridiculous beyond belief... BTW back-pressure is a meaningless word. There is no back-pressure just as there is no forward-pressure.

 

[Vale71]

I presume their experiment was "open fermentation" vs not. The "backpressure sensitivity" explanation for this yeast stalling defies physics but was said by a big name in homebrew once (with no evidence I can recall) and as been passed around as dogma since. Barometric changes can easily overshadow the small amount of hydrostatic pressure of an airlock. Not to mention what I and @VikeMan said- you can bottle condition with it. Which is obviously contrary to "pressure sensitivity". There must be another explanation for why that yeast is prone to stalling. It's not pressure.

Not to mention the fact that if you add up headspace pressure and hydrostatic pressure, which yeast cannot tell apart, even if you remove the airlock you'll still have the same total pressure you had at the surface with an airlock but now you'll have it starting a couple of centimeters below the surface instead of at the surface. This would mean that such a yeast even if it existed would be completely useless as it would invariably stall, either with or without an airlock, in a fermenter that is more than a couple of centimeters deep...

Like I said countless times the premise itself defies physics to the point that any "experiment" or "proof" can be discarded a priori.

 

[mistermaker]

Not to mention the fact that if you add up headspace pressure and hydrostatic pressure, which yeast cannot tell apart, even if you remove the airlock you'll still have the same total pressure you had at the surface with an airlock but now you'll have it starting a couple of centimeters below the surface instead of at the surface. This would mean that such a yeast even if it existed would be completely useless as it would invariably stall, either with or without an airlock, in a fermenter that is more than a couple of centimeters deep...

Like I said countless times the premise itself defies physics to the point that any "experiment" or "proof" can be discarded a priori.

Many thanks for the explanation.
Do you think there is a particular reason to why WLP565 tend to stall during fermentation? Is It because it lacks Oxygen ?

 

[Vale71]

Do you think there is a particular reason to why WLP565 tend to stall during fermentation? Is It because it lacks Oxygen ?

There is no particular reason because there is no particular tendency to stall. This myth is completely made up.

 

[mistermaker]

There is no particular reason because there is no particular tendency to stall. This myth is completely made up.

ok many thanks

 

[Qhrumphf]

I don't know if I'd say stalling is "completely made up" as even the yeast manufacturers state it. There's certainly anecdotal evidence for it.

It's just not pressure related. I have never personally had it stall, though it slows rapidly for me towards the end. Perhaps that's the same mechanism happening, perhaps not.

There was a paper (I do not know if it's published yet or if theres more current research, and this is off memory from a couple years ago so possible I'm misremembering specifics) by some of the micro brains at Milk The Funk looking into STA1 gene expression (the gene in yeast DNA characterizing it as a diastaticus strain, a hallmark of Saison yeasts though not limited to them). They identified another gene interacting with the STA1 gene that changed the expression of STA1, namely the speed at which it secreted the diastatic enzyme breaking down higher sugars leading to the high attenuation typical of these yeasts. They grouped them into "inhibited" and "uninhibited" groups. Some strains like 3711 are fast working and "uninhibited". If I recall correctly 3724 and WLP565 were in the "inhibited" grouping.

Another thing this paper suggested was that oxygen access seemed to enhance STA1 expression in both cases.

This *might* be why 3724/565 reportedly don't stall with open fermentation but are more prone to stalling under normal, closed fermentation.

I haven't done a pure strain fermentation with either in quite a few years, and I typically use HIGH temps (95F+) with them. I intend, at some point, to experiment with a secondary oxygen blast 24hrs into fermentation, both at my normal temp scheme as well as at reduced temps, and see what changes if any I can observe.

 

[Vale71]

This *might* be why 3724/565 reportedly don't stall with open fermentation but are more prone to stalling under normal, closed fermentation.

There is zero evidence of that. So far it's just people repeating what they've read somewhere on the Internet.

Of course there are stalls (technically, PYFs or Premature Yeast Flocculation) and every strain might react differently to one or more fermentation parameters but this "DuPont stall" thing is really just urban lore.

An oxygen blast that late into fermentation is not really a good idea. I would avoid doing that.

 

[Qhrumphf]

There is zero evidence of that. So far it's just people repeating what they've read somewhere on the Internet.

Of course there are stalls (technically, PYFs or Premature Yeast Flocculation) and every strain might react differently to one or more fermentation parameters but this "DuPont stall" thing is really just urban lore.

An oxygen blast that late into fermentation is not really a good idea. I would avoid doing that.

There's definitely a mythical element for sure. And as I know folks who say they've had it happen to them, I wouldn't doubt some confirmation bias even in direct experience, especially with regard to open fermentation preventing it.

Just not as quick as you to denounce the stalling tendency. As temperature seems to be a common thread as well, perhaps it's simply premature flocculation coinciding with temperature dropping below where the yeast are happy. Not unusual with English yeasts at least.

WRT to secondary oxygen, not a normal thing. But it's something I do with mammoth gravity beers and in rare instances where I have to start with a very poor pitch rate. In both instances at the recommendation of the guy who runs a local yeast lab (whom I trust his expertise on this subject).

In this case obviously a different scenario than either above. But I'm curious if it'd have any impact based on aforementioned paper.

 

[VikeMan]

FWIW, I have never experienced a stall with the Dupont strains. I target 0.75M cells/ml/°P, oxygenate the wort with pure O2, and use Wyeast nutrient blend.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I haven't either. I pitch it at a slightly lower than that, but not nearly as low as I'd pitch a Hefe for example. I also start in the very upper 60s (68-70F) and continuously ramp 5F per day to the upper 90s. Rather than a "stall at 1.035" it'll hit the upper teens quickly then slowly chew down to mid single digits. Full attenuation in maybe 3 weeks instead of the 4-7 days I'd expect with most ale yeasts.

 

[Vale71]

There's definitely a mythical element for sure. And as I know folks who say they've had it happen to them, I wouldn't doubt some confirmation bias even in direct experience, especially with regard to open fermentation preventing it.

Just not as quick as you to denounce the stalling tendency. As temperature seems to be a common thread as well, perhaps it's simply premature flocculation coinciding with temperature dropping below where the yeast are happy. Not unusual with English yeasts at least.

WRT to secondary oxygen, not a normal thing. But it's something I do with mammoth gravity beers and in rare instances where I have to start with a very poor pitch rate. In both instances at the recommendation of the guy who runs a local yeast lab (whom I trust his expertise on this subject).

In this case obviously a different scenario than either above. But I'm curious if it'd have any impact based on aforementioned paper.

I'm sure that there are people experiencing systematical issues because of any number of factors, where it gets mythological is when they claim that everybody is experience the same issues with a certain strain (not true) or when they espouse some absurd explanation that they've read on the Internet. I'm sure there are a few who espouse those explanation who haven't even experience the issue, so strong is the urge to believe...

As for asking a guy who's expert on how to make how to make beer... Not necessarily the best choice IMHO. The guideline is no oxygenation past 12 hours, assuming that fermentation starts within a normal time frame thanks to an adequate pitch of vital yeast. Going further will certainly help your yeast (the yeast guy is definitely not wrong in claiming that) but could be bad for your beer.

 

[shoreman]

That yeast is supposed to have origins at Brasserie de Blaugies and they did a collab with Hill Farmstead called La Vermontoise, delicious beer.

https://www.brasseriedeblaugies.com/43.html
Might want to email them to see how they treated the fermentation vessels- open vs closed.

I tend to put stock in the advice of those working intimately with any yeast.

 

[Vale71]

That yeast is supposed to have origins at Brasserie de Blaugies and they did a collab with Hill Farmstead called La Vermontoise, delicious beer.

We don't even know if that is true....

And even if that were true and we were able to determine that they use open fermentation vessels there this would still prove absolutely nothing, not even that such an issue exists or has ever existed...

EDIT: a quick look at the phot gallery section of their website (which must have remained unchanged since the '90s ) shows all modern closed fermentation and maturation vessels. So much for that...

 

[Qhrumphf]

I'm sure that there are people experiencing systematical issues because of any number of factors, where it gets mythological is when they claim that everybody is experience the same issues with a certain strain (not true) or when they espouse some absurd explanation that they've read on the Internet. I'm sure there are a few who espouse those explanation who haven't even experience the issue, so strong is the urge to believe...

As for asking a guy who's expert on how to make how to make beer... Not necessarily the best choice IMHO. The guideline is no oxygenation past 12 hours, assuming that fermentation starts within a normal time frame thanks to an adequate pitch of vital yeast. Going further will certainly help your yeast (the yeast guy is definitely not wrong in claiming that) but could be bad for your beer.

That was my thought as well and I was plenty hesitant at first but gave it a shot. Results have said otherwise. YMMV.

 

[shoreman]

We don't even know if that is true....

And even if that were true and we were able to determine that they use open fermentation vessels there this would still prove absolutely nothing, not even that such an issue exists or has ever existed...

EDIT: a quick look at the phot gallery section of their website (which must have remained unchanged

you seem to be stuck on debating this so called “myth” about pressure fermenting saison yeast.

the OP is asking questions about a specific yeast strain - I’d either go to the source - that would be either Wyeast or the origin of the yeast which in this case there a few clues as to what that is and figure out how they are working with this yeast.

not sure if the science has been done at DuPont on open vs closed fermentation but if I’m using that yeast and have questions about specifics, I’ll try them first.

OP - check out this podcast where Bob Sylvester touches on his open fermentors (stainless wine vessels) vs closed with his saison mixed culture Episode #010 - Saison with Bob Sylvester of St. Somewhere Brewing Company and Shawn Johnson of Birds Fly South Ale Project — Milk The Funk "The Podcast"

 

[mistermaker]

you seem to be stuck on debating this so called “myth” about pressure fermenting saison yeast.

the OP is asking questions about a specific yeast strain - I’d either go to the source - that would be either Wyeast or the origin of the yeast which in this case there a few clues as to what that is and figure out how they are working with this yeast.

not sure if the science has been done at DuPont on open vs closed fermentation but if I’m using that yeast and have questions about specifics, I’ll try them first.

OP - check out this podcast where Bob Sylvester touches on his open fermentors (stainless wine vessels) vs closed with his saison mixed culture Episode #010 - Saison with Bob Sylvester of St. Somewhere Brewing Company and Shawn Johnson of Birds Fly South Ale Project — Milk The Funk "The Podcast"

Many thanks,
At first I thouhgt you were speaking about WLP565 but then I checked the brewery website and found out it was about Wyeast 3726 and I was just about to mail them.Being belgian I hope it is going to be easier to speak to them.
Also thank you for the potcast it is certainly be greatly helpfull.
Thanks again.