Saison Under Pressure

[Vale71]

This *might* be why 3724/565 reportedly don't stall with open fermentation but are more prone to stalling under normal, closed fermentation.

There is zero evidence of that. So far it's just people repeating what they've read somewhere on the Internet.

Of course there are stalls (technically, PYFs or Premature Yeast Flocculation) and every strain might react differently to one or more fermentation parameters but this "DuPont stall" thing is really just urban lore.

An oxygen blast that late into fermentation is not really a good idea. I would avoid doing that.

 

[Qhrumphf]

There is zero evidence of that. So far it's just people repeating what they've read somewhere on the Internet.

Of course there are stalls (technically, PYFs or Premature Yeast Flocculation) and every strain might react differently to one or more fermentation parameters but this "DuPont stall" thing is really just urban lore.

An oxygen blast that late into fermentation is not really a good idea. I would avoid doing that.

There's definitely a mythical element for sure. And as I know folks who say they've had it happen to them, I wouldn't doubt some confirmation bias even in direct experience, especially with regard to open fermentation preventing it.

Just not as quick as you to denounce the stalling tendency. As temperature seems to be a common thread as well, perhaps it's simply premature flocculation coinciding with temperature dropping below where the yeast are happy. Not unusual with English yeasts at least.

WRT to secondary oxygen, not a normal thing. But it's something I do with mammoth gravity beers and in rare instances where I have to start with a very poor pitch rate. In both instances at the recommendation of the guy who runs a local yeast lab (whom I trust his expertise on this subject).

In this case obviously a different scenario than either above. But I'm curious if it'd have any impact based on aforementioned paper.

 

[VikeMan]

FWIW, I have never experienced a stall with the Dupont strains. I target 0.75M cells/ml/°P, oxygenate the wort with pure O2, and use Wyeast nutrient blend.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I haven't either. I pitch it at a slightly lower than that, but not nearly as low as I'd pitch a Hefe for example. I also start in the very upper 60s (68-70F) and continuously ramp 5F per day to the upper 90s. Rather than a "stall at 1.035" it'll hit the upper teens quickly then slowly chew down to mid single digits. Full attenuation in maybe 3 weeks instead of the 4-7 days I'd expect with most ale yeasts.

 

[Vale71]

There's definitely a mythical element for sure. And as I know folks who say they've had it happen to them, I wouldn't doubt some confirmation bias even in direct experience, especially with regard to open fermentation preventing it.

Just not as quick as you to denounce the stalling tendency. As temperature seems to be a common thread as well, perhaps it's simply premature flocculation coinciding with temperature dropping below where the yeast are happy. Not unusual with English yeasts at least.

WRT to secondary oxygen, not a normal thing. But it's something I do with mammoth gravity beers and in rare instances where I have to start with a very poor pitch rate. In both instances at the recommendation of the guy who runs a local yeast lab (whom I trust his expertise on this subject).

In this case obviously a different scenario than either above. But I'm curious if it'd have any impact based on aforementioned paper.

I'm sure that there are people experiencing systematical issues because of any number of factors, where it gets mythological is when they claim that everybody is experience the same issues with a certain strain (not true) or when they espouse some absurd explanation that they've read on the Internet. I'm sure there are a few who espouse those explanation who haven't even experience the issue, so strong is the urge to believe...

As for asking a guy who's expert on how to make how to make beer... Not necessarily the best choice IMHO. The guideline is no oxygenation past 12 hours, assuming that fermentation starts within a normal time frame thanks to an adequate pitch of vital yeast. Going further will certainly help your yeast (the yeast guy is definitely not wrong in claiming that) but could be bad for your beer.

 

[shoreman]

That yeast is supposed to have origins at Brasserie de Blaugies and they did a collab with Hill Farmstead called La Vermontoise, delicious beer.

https://www.brasseriedeblaugies.com/43.html
Might want to email them to see how they treated the fermentation vessels- open vs closed.

I tend to put stock in the advice of those working intimately with any yeast.

 

[Vale71]

That yeast is supposed to have origins at Brasserie de Blaugies and they did a collab with Hill Farmstead called La Vermontoise, delicious beer.

We don't even know if that is true....

And even if that were true and we were able to determine that they use open fermentation vessels there this would still prove absolutely nothing, not even that such an issue exists or has ever existed...

EDIT: a quick look at the phot gallery section of their website (which must have remained unchanged since the '90s ) shows all modern closed fermentation and maturation vessels. So much for that...

 

[Qhrumphf]

I'm sure that there are people experiencing systematical issues because of any number of factors, where it gets mythological is when they claim that everybody is experience the same issues with a certain strain (not true) or when they espouse some absurd explanation that they've read on the Internet. I'm sure there are a few who espouse those explanation who haven't even experience the issue, so strong is the urge to believe...

As for asking a guy who's expert on how to make how to make beer... Not necessarily the best choice IMHO. The guideline is no oxygenation past 12 hours, assuming that fermentation starts within a normal time frame thanks to an adequate pitch of vital yeast. Going further will certainly help your yeast (the yeast guy is definitely not wrong in claiming that) but could be bad for your beer.

That was my thought as well and I was plenty hesitant at first but gave it a shot. Results have said otherwise. YMMV.

 

[shoreman]

We don't even know if that is true....

And even if that were true and we were able to determine that they use open fermentation vessels there this would still prove absolutely nothing, not even that such an issue exists or has ever existed...

EDIT: a quick look at the phot gallery section of their website (which must have remained unchanged

you seem to be stuck on debating this so called “myth” about pressure fermenting saison yeast.

the OP is asking questions about a specific yeast strain - I’d either go to the source - that would be either Wyeast or the origin of the yeast which in this case there a few clues as to what that is and figure out how they are working with this yeast.

not sure if the science has been done at DuPont on open vs closed fermentation but if I’m using that yeast and have questions about specifics, I’ll try them first.

OP - check out this podcast where Bob Sylvester touches on his open fermentors (stainless wine vessels) vs closed with his saison mixed culture Episode #010 - Saison with Bob Sylvester of St. Somewhere Brewing Company and Shawn Johnson of Birds Fly South Ale Project — Milk The Funk "The Podcast"

 

[mistermaker]

you seem to be stuck on debating this so called “myth” about pressure fermenting saison yeast.

the OP is asking questions about a specific yeast strain - I’d either go to the source - that would be either Wyeast or the origin of the yeast which in this case there a few clues as to what that is and figure out how they are working with this yeast.

not sure if the science has been done at DuPont on open vs closed fermentation but if I’m using that yeast and have questions about specifics, I’ll try them first.

OP - check out this podcast where Bob Sylvester touches on his open fermentors (stainless wine vessels) vs closed with his saison mixed culture Episode #010 - Saison with Bob Sylvester of St. Somewhere Brewing Company and Shawn Johnson of Birds Fly South Ale Project — Milk The Funk "The Podcast"

Many thanks,
At first I thouhgt you were speaking about WLP565 but then I checked the brewery website and found out it was about Wyeast 3726 and I was just about to mail them.Being belgian I hope it is going to be easier to speak to them.
Also thank you for the potcast it is certainly be greatly helpfull.
Thanks again.

 

[Qhrumphf]

IIRC Dupont's actual yeast "strain" is not a pure culture but actually a multi-strain. The "Dupont" strain as used by most brewers was isolated from Dupont's culture and is the dominant strain, but it's not gonna be a fair comparison.

But yes. The "Dupont stall" is a tangent that I think we can drop at this point since it seems everyone still talking about it is more or less in agreement, ie "backpressure sensitivity" as initially referenced is not a real thing.

I don't have any direct experience I can recall with the other strain. I haven't used any strain, of any type, that would have a problem with the OP's spunding plan.

 

[Qhrumphf]

For what it's worth my preferred Saison "strain" is a blend of multiples- I like WLP568 White Labs Saison Blend, expressive Dupont-like character, fast, reliable, and low maintenance- followed by a secondary pitch and prolonged aging with multiple strains of Brett.

 

[shoreman]

You’d like that podcast then with Bob Sylvester- he uses a “house” mixed culture. I like the French saison myself, it includes the flavor I’m after and ease of use. La Chouffe yeast for my other Belgian styles.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I'll have to give it a listen though I don't usually do podcasts. I'm familiar enough with his beers though and have certainly learned from the experience he's contributed via the MTF Wiki.

Shawn Johnson is a good guy too. I met him a couple times years ago before he started Birds Fly South.

 

[shoreman]

I learned about his bottle conditioning method in that episode as well. Tried it in my Biere de Noel recently and had excellent results fast.

 

[mistermaker]

That yeast is supposed to have origins at Brasserie de Blaugies and they did a collab with Hill Farmstead called La Vermontoise, delicious beer.

https://www.brasseriedeblaugies.com/43.html
Might want to email them to see how they treated the fermentation vessels- open vs closed.

I tend to put stock in the advice of those working intimately with any yeast.

I E-mailed the brewery and they told me they didn't use Wyeast 3726.
-1: could be because they don't even know it.
-2: some guy invented this rumor.
-3: Could be a yeast strain very simmilar to the 3726.

They also told me to "beware of the nonsense you can encounter in the microbrewery world!".
(found it quite funny)

Any thoughts?

Thanks alot tho.

 

[shoreman]

I E-mailed the brewery and they told me they didn't use Wyeast 3726.

That is funny. So Wyeast would have been the ones that actually obtained the yeast from Brasserie de Blaugies, so the transaction would go in the reverse.

I think at this point, I would just go for the pressure fermentation and see what the results are.

That yeast could have a similar profile to Brasserie de Blaugies in description as you said but I guess you won't know until you try. Can you do a smaller batch - 10-12 liters? That what I would do to test it. I've been doing that with kveik strains lately and glad I did, because some of them aren't that great.

 

[mistermaker]

That is funny. So Wyeast would have been the ones that actually obtained the yeast from Brasserie de Blaugies, so the transaction would go in the reverse.

I think at this point, I would just go for the pressure fermentation and see what the results are.

That yeast could have a similar profile to Brasserie de Blaugies in description as you said but I guess you won't know until you try. Can you do a smaller batch - 10-12 liters? That what I would do to test it. I've been doing that with kveik strains lately and glad I did, because some of them aren't that great.

Those were hypotheses I don't really know what happenend.

I could do that. I am going to think about it. I think it is going to be a big loss of time if I do it in split batches.

 

[Vale71]

That is funny. So Wyeast would have been the ones that actually obtained the yeast from Brasserie de Blaugies, so the transaction would go in the reverse.

Or - outrageous, I know, but bear with me - the two yeasts have nothing to do with each other and the Internet is full of made up stuff??

 

[mistermaker]

Or - outrageous, I know, but bear with me - the two yeasts have nothing to do with each other and the Internet is full of made up stuff??

-2: some guy invented this rumor.

[/QUOTE]
thath's what I've been thinking of when telling this : (quote 2)

 

[mistermaker]

-2: some guy invented this rumor.

thath's what I've been thinking of when telling this :

 

[shoreman]

Or - outrageous, I know, but bear with me - the two yeasts have nothing to do with each other and the Internet is full of made up stuff??

The OP mentioned that, it is a possibility that it is not the source-but there's a possibility that it is. Outside of talking to Wyeast or Escarpment Labs (who are doing alot of tracking on origins of yeast) who knows? I don't get why you are so stuck on that point. Did some other yeast search turn out not to be true for you on the internet?

 

[VikeMan]

The OP mentioned that, it is a possibility that it is not the source-but there's a possibility that it is. Outside of talking to Wyeast or Escarpment Labs (who are doing alot of tracking on origins of yeast) who knows? I don't get why you are so stuck on that point. Did some other yeast search turn out not to be true for you on the internet?

I understand where @Vale71 is coming from. The earliest yeast Source/Equivalence charts I can recall seeing were built by Kristen England, and are still available on the Mr. Malty site and (maybe?) others. They were a tour de force. Fast forward to genetic sequencing and the information compiled by @suregork and others, and a lot of the early stuff just isn't right. But it's still quoted quite a bit. I would take any source/equivalence information with a grain of salt if not supported by genetics or clear historical provenance.

OTOH, I think it's perfectly fine to say (for example) that Wyeast 1056, WLP001, and US-05 tend to make similar beers, as long as we're not claiming that they are the same strain.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I doubt a major yeast lab would openly say "we harvested from XYZ brewery".

And in this case, I doubt they're purchasing from Wyeast. If it's the same strain, it was likely isolated by Wyeast from a bottle of the beer.

If they're doing the modern thing and ordering yeast from a lab periodically and repitching up until that point, it's probably something that was sourced from their brewery and banked by someone like Weihenstephan's lab and propped for them. Or perhaps they're doing that in-house in their own lab. Or perhaps they do the old school farmhouse thing and it's an ever-evolving multi-strain (though modern Belgian "farmhouse" brewing is nostalgia and most historical farmhouse breweries are run like modern operations)

The way you'd tell for sure is doing a PCR analysis of the Wyeast strain and the Blaugies strain(s) and comparing them.

It's possible as well that it's a singular isolate from a Blaugies multi-strain (as I believe is the case with 3724 and Dupont, see above). Or that it was isolated from Blaugies at some point in the past and is similar but genetically distinct (think of that as sharing parentage, like a sibling but not a twin, I think this is the case with 1056/001/US-05 but I'm not confident in my memory there).

Or maybe they are similar in profile but completely unrelated and someone made a wrong assumption. Or maybe they're not even all that close and it's complete nonsense.

 

[VikeMan]

I doubt a major yeast lab would openly say "we harvested from XYZ brewery".

Yep. For the most part, they don't. Though they sometimes drop hints into their descriptions without actually naming the brewery. I've even recall a case where one of the manufacturers embedded a brewery name in a yeast strain web page's html, but it wasn't displayed. Search Engine Optimization, I suppose.

 

[shoreman]

Definitely agree with the posts above.

so in my experience if I’m hitting a wall in best practices around a yeast, I’ll just go at it and experiment as I mentioned above.

That’s what I’m doing with the kveik strains - you just have to jump in and start working with the strain.

I recently got the Opshaug strain - little to no info on it outside of Lars’ website with a range of 68-95 - just have to jump in, but I’ll brew small batch to test.