Rye Bitterness

[mbcomstock]

I recently brewed three beers using varying amounts of rye: a pilsner, a dark lager and a session saison. The pilsner was 10% rye and turned out very well (quite smooth with a bit of bite from the rye). Both the dark lager and the saison, however, have a strong, up-front bitterness that is not hop bitterness. The lager is 20% rye (17% rye, 2% crystal rye and 1% chocolate rye) and the saison is 15% rye. Both beers have a solid malt backbone. I used a step infusion mash for both the lager and the saison so that there was a protein rest. My knee-jerk reaction is that the increased rye percentage in the saison and lager caused the bitterness, but I don't know why that would be. Any thoughts? Is it the rye, or is it more likely some aspect of my brewing process that I'm not think of at the moment. Thanks!

 

[Brewmasher]

What was your FG? Saisons finish very dry, which increases bitterness perception.

 

[Redlantern]

High sparge temp and sparging too long with high sparge temp will bring out tannins. Learned that one the hard way.

Also - drying out rye (like stated above) makes the bitterness come through.

The sulfate level will contribute to the mix if too high

So a long, hot sparge (easy now...), high attenuation and high sulfate (or high sulfate/chloride ratio) will all add to bitterness

 

[mbcomstock]

Thank you both for the replies. FG was low, about 1.008. It's definitely a dry beer. I used YB Saison Brett blend, which I've used before and produces a highly attenuated beer. The dark lager, though, is not a dry beer, but it has the same bitterness

I sparged with water at 170 degrees, which is the sparging temperature I use for most of my beers. I lautered for about 45 minutes, including recirculating runoff through the grain bed.

The water may be the culprit. I used filtered water, which pulls out the chlorine, but it doesn't pull out the chloramines. I didn't treat the water to address chloramines, so I'm wondering if that was the culprit.

 

[dmtaylor]

Rye is not bitter. It must be the water, specifically the mash pH and alkalinity. If you have alkaline water and did not neutralize this with salt and acid additions shooting for a mash pH of 5.2-5.5, your beers will suffer.

 

[tagz]

I would work on water treatment. Check your local water report to see if they use chlorine or chloramines. You also want to run your water through a water calc to address pH.

As for the rye, I experimented with rye and decided that I'm not fond of the profile. I found that it produces a sensation of intense dryness and made the beers taste over attenuated. So, no more rye for me.

 

[mongoose33]

I would work on water treatment. Check your local water report to see if they use chlorine or chloramines. You also want to run your water through a water calc to address pH.

As for the rye, I experimented with rye and decided that I'm not fond of the profile. I found that it produces a sensation of intense dryness and made the beers taste over attenuated. So, no more rye for me.

Probably just the recipe. I have a rye I do w/ Maris Otter as the base malt and it has the tangy note of Rye but the bitterness is hop-related. Recently bought some caramel Rye to see what I might do with that. FWIW, here's the grain bill for my recipe.:

9# Maris Otter
3# Rye Malt
6 oz. Chocolate Wheat
4 oz. Flaked Rye
8 oz. Rice Hulls
.50 oz. Columbus 60 min
.50 oz. Columbus 20 min
1.0 oz Styrian Celeia 10 min
WLP810 or Wyeast 2112 in Starter
Mash Temp 152, Ph 5.39

Easy drinking, ABV about 6.5. But I love Rye--my favorite whiskey is Bulleit Rye.

 

[dmtaylor]

I experimented with rye and decided that I'm not fond of the profile. I found that it produces a sensation of intense dryness and made the beers taste over attenuated. So, no more rye for me.

Funny you mention this, because I have had the exact opposite experiences, e.g., super thick, creamy, viscous, luscious, and not at all spicy but just earthy. This was at 40% of the grist in a recipe I have made multiple times. And experiences on each side of this dichotomy have been supported by many people that I've seen on the interwebs. We really have to wonder whether all ryes are not in fact created equal.

 

[tagz]

Yeah, I have heard that it can get syrupy at higher amounts and the lush, spicy thing was what I was hoping for. I stuck to about 15-20%. Tried it in three slightly different saison recipes and each had the same quality. I've done these recipes many times without the rye and it doesn't show up. I've also noted the dry, vinous, over attenuated quality in a couple commercial beers as well. I think I ised to assume it was thick and spicy because I had it in dank rye-pa's.

 

[Redlantern]

Yeah, I have heard that it can get syrupy at higher amounts and the lush, spicy thing was what I was hoping for. I stuck to about 15-20%. Tried it in three slightly different saison recipes and each had the same quality. I've done these recipes many times without the rye and it doesn't show up. I've also noted the dry, vinous, over attenuated quality in a couple commercial beers as well. I think I ised to assume it was thick and spicy because I had it in dank rye-pa's.

I have heard that keeping crystal over 10% in a rye helps. Not sure about a saison though

 

[mbcomstock]

Thanks everybody. It has to be the water. That's the only reason that I can think of that both the dark lager and saison would have the same issue (although I brewed the rye pilsener at the same time as the dark lager and the pilsener was fine; maybe some aspect of the grain bill helped). My notes say that saison and dark lager clocked in at 5.4 and 5.3 respectively. May need to stop using pH strips.