Rodenbach Grand Cru Clone

[dfess1]

hmmm, need to rack this to a secondary. It's been in the primary for a month and a half now.

 

[brobeman]

I brewed this about a month ago and still have it in primary. I am going to rack to seconday and pitch the roselare tomorrow.

I am thinking about adding the MD. Do I just boil for 15 minutes, cool and add to secondary?

Thanks,
Brobe

 

[dfess1]

So i have a question here. I brewed this back in august, and pitched the rosalere directly into the primary (no 1056). I racked off the rosalere cake about a month and a half later. So, I have no pelecile at the moment. Should I ahve left it on the yeast? Should I repitch what I saved (tried to harvest the rosalere for future sours) into the secondary?

 

[Liquisky]

My water is horrible here in el paso. I usually use RO water and the primer in the brew science section and or brunwater online tool. Any advice on the proper water profile for this.beer?

 

[cactusgarrett]

Sorry for the delay - i've brewed this two ways: pitching 1056 first, THEN the Roeselare, as well as both from the beginning. You definitely get a more complex, round, sourness from pitching everything at once. Some people aren't into that, though. However, if you're looking for a Rodenback-inspired beer, you probably are.

The reason i used MD initially, was because pitching 1056 had it finishing lower than i wanted, and there wasn't much left for the Roe blend to work on. That's my hypothesis as to why it doesn't get sour enough. For the MD, you just have to dissolve and boil long enough to sanitize.

As far as water, i typically shoot for a Belgian profile (fairly soft).

 

[Dgonza9]

I'm hoping someone can give me some advice on this.

My brew club has a 55 gallon oak barrel. We were planning on doing a sour in it and I agreed to host the barrel in my basement brewery. My concern is that the Roselare will basically infect the whole brewery. I'll have like 10 five gallon batches being put in there and taken out. Seems like lots of bugs will get airborne during that. Not to mention, Oak barrels breathe.

I love sours, but I'd like to make other beers as well. Am I being paranoid about infecting the whole place? It's a pretty small space, so the barrel will be like 10 feet from grain mill and all my other brew equipment.

Cheers.

 

[Aschecte]

I'm hoping someone can give me some advice on this.

My brew club has a 55 gallon oak barrel. We were planning on doing a sour in it and I agreed to host the barrel in my basement brewery. My concern is that the Roselare will basically infect the whole brewery. I'll have like 10 five gallon batches being put in there and taken out. Seems like lots of bugs will get airborne during that. Not to mention, Oak barrels breathe.

I love sours, but I'd like to make other beers as well. Am I being paranoid about infecting the whole place? It's a pretty small space, so the barrel will be like 10 feet from grain mill and all my other brew equipment.

Cheers.

Just be extra careful about sanitization and use seperates racking canes etc.... If possible ferment your clean beers in a seperate room though that may be over kill. I'd say you'll be fine.

 

[eastoak]

I'm hoping someone can give me some advice on this.

My brew club has a 55 gallon oak barrel. We were planning on doing a sour in it and I agreed to host the barrel in my basement brewery. My concern is that the Roselare will basically infect the whole brewery. I'll have like 10 five gallon batches being put in there and taken out. Seems like lots of bugs will get airborne during that. Not to mention, Oak barrels breathe.

I love sours, but I'd like to make other beers as well. Am I being paranoid about infecting the whole place? It's a pretty small space, so the barrel will be like 10 feet from grain mill and all my other brew equipment.

Cheers.

for the past 2 years i've been brewing sour and clean beer using the same fermentors, siphons, the whole deal and have yet to have an unintentional sour beer. the reason i did this is not because i want to be a contrarian, i was genuinely curious about the question of cross contamination. most of what i read about sour bugs warned about bugs hiding in scratches, segregating equipment and the general invincibility of souring organisms. so far i can say that for the home brewer following good sanitation practices the dangers are very manageable.

 

[HopHoarder]

I'm getting some roselaire tomorrow and will be making this beer in the near future. Just curious as to how you bottle it...do you use regular 12 or 22oz bottles with caps? Do you use a boiled dextrose priming sugar/water mix before bottling like regular beer?

 

[eastoak]

I'm getting some roselaire tomorrow and will be making this beer in the near future. Just curious as to how you bottle it...do you use regular 12 or 22oz bottles with caps? Do you use a boiled dextrose priming sugar/water mix before bottling like regular beer?

you can, i did and it worked fine. mine sat in the fermentor for almost a so i bottled with champagne yeast.

 

[HopHoarder]

So some yeast does then need to be added along with dextrose just before bottling?

 

[skeezerpleezer]

So some yeast does then need to be added along with dextrose just before bottling?

Let it sit a long time on Roselare...12-18 mo recommended by many. Then add yeast and priming sugar like you normally would; there are priming caculators to get the real amount .

 

[Aschecte]

Would you be are to share a calculator site ?

 

[eastoak]

Would you be are to share a calculator site ?

to calculate priming sugar?

 

[skeezerpleezer]

http://tastybrew.mobify.me/calculators/priming.html

 

[KeystoneHomebrew]

Bottle it as your would any other beer, but I would highly recommend adding champagne yeast like eastoak suggested. I bottle all of my sours with it just to ensure proper and prompt carbonation. Think of it as bottling insurance for a buck.

 

[Koffie]

Interesting thread, I have a a Rodenbach clone for 13 months in a oad barrel.
We plan to brew a second batch somewhere between now and 2 months. After the primary fermentation, we want to blend part of that young batch with the old batch, and put the other part in the barrel (wich isn't completely emptyed).
At the moment allready a extra smackpackl Roeselare in the fridge

Can someone tell me your experiences on the method we plan to go for?

 

[HopHoarder]

Great! I'm planning on brewing two 5 gallon batches of Flanders more or less following the recipe as posted on page one. For the first batch though I'm adding around 2lbs of unmalted wheat to give the bretts more to work with. I will have the Roselare and an 800ml starter of S-05 pitched together in the primary and then transfer some of the yeastcake over to secondary. The second batch will be pitched on the remaining yeastcake from the first batch. I also have some used oak spirals that were used in red wine; I'll be putting two spirals in each batch in secondary.
For the second flanders batch, I'll follow for the mostpart the same recipe as the first, but less unmalted wheat and likely add instead some flaked maize. I have 1lb of MD that I will add either to just the second batch or split it to some degreee between batches, depending on my SG before racking to secondary. I'm hoping to do some blending and bottle some of it in November and leave the rest for another year or so.

 

[Andrikos]

So I brewed 30 liters (8 US gallons) of this recipe (mildly modified) this past Saturday, I cooled it down to 16C (~61F) and pitched the Wyeast 3763 blend despite Beersmith's warnings that I should have made a 1.4l starter (for 1.058 OG/30 liters).

I do realize that I underpitched by quite a margin but my lag time was about 30 hours and the fact that my (fresh) Yeast will produce extra esters/phenols/higher alcohols doesn't bother me much since I'm keeping the temperature low and I will let it mature for a loooooong time (as is appropriate for the style).

I'm curious about something: everybody seems to include a "clean ale" yeast at the beginning and/or together with the 3763 blend that already includes an appropriate Saccharomyces strain for the Style.
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=194


"...Specific proportions of a Belgian style ale strain, a sherry strain, two Brettanomyces strains, a Lactobacillus culture, and a Pediococcus culture produce the desirable flavor components of these beers as they are brewed in West Flanders. Propagation of this culture is not recommended and will result in a change of the proportions of the individual components. This blend will produce a very dry beer due to the super-attenuative nature of the mixed cultures."


My question is why?
Why do we want the "clean" strain to eat up most of the fermentables and create a minimal ester/phenol/higher_alcohol profile with just a pittance of fermentables for the "secondary" strains to eat?
Isn't the idea to let the exact bug profile that Wyeast labs have developed to represent a Flander's Red Sour Ale do its work?

I'm genuinely curious as to what the brewmasters here have to say about this...

 

[eastoak]

So I brewed 30 liters (8 US gallons) of this recipe (mildly modified) this past Saturday, I cooled it down to 16C (~61F) and pitched the Wyeast 3763 blend despite Beersmith's warnings that I should have made a 1.4l starter (for 1.058 OG/30 liters).

I do realize that I underpitched by quite a margin but my lag time was about 30 hours and the fact that my (fresh) Yeast will produce extra esters/phenols/higher alcohols doesn't bother me much since I'm keeping the temperature low and I will let it mature for a loooooong time (as is appropriate for the style).

I'm curious about something: everybody seems to include a "clean ale" yeast at the beginning and/or together with the 3763 blend that already includes an appropriate Saccharomyces strain for the Style.
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=194


"...Specific proportions of a Belgian style ale strain, a sherry strain, two Brettanomyces strains, a Lactobacillus culture, and a Pediococcus culture produce the desirable flavor components of these beers as they are brewed in West Flanders. Propagation of this culture is not recommended and will result in a change of the proportions of the individual components. This blend will produce a very dry beer due to the super-attenuative nature of the mixed cultures."


My question is why?
Why do we want the "clean" strain to eat up most of the fermentables and create a minimal ester/phenol/higher_alcohol profile with just a pittance of fermentables for the "secondary" strains to eat?
Isn't the idea to let the exact bug profile that Wyeast labs have developed to represent a Flander's Red Sour Ale do its work?

I'm genuinely curious as to what the brewmasters here have to say about this...

i wonder the same thing. maybe they are skeptical that the sour bugs can fully ferment the beer? i have done both; a 3 liter starter i made from the dregs of russian river's beatification pitched into the wort with no clean yeast. recently i've used wyeast abby ale mixed with russian river and jolly pumpkin dregs. there may be differences in the end but i claim that they are not detectable or if they are not detrimental either way. these souring bacteria and yeast can ferment a variety of sugars that clean yeast can't so even in a secondary they will continue to develop flavors over time. i keep my sours on the yeast for the whole time and if i go to a secondary i always add wood, so far it's worked out great for me.

 

[dfess1]

I brewed 5 gal of this in august and pitched just one package of rosalere on it. I racked it off the yeast in novemberish time frame, saved the cake. I re-brewed it for 10 gal just after the beginning of the year. This time I put a fresh package of rosalere in each carboy, along with the yeast cake from the first batch (split in two for each carboy). In terms of gravity, they all are down to 1.012 or lower (admittedly I have not taken a sample of the first 5 gal in a while, mainly because it's at the back of my crawl space). The plan is to blend all 15 gal together come this November/December. Half will then be aged on oak for a bit longer, while the other half will be bottled.

 

[HopHoarder]

So after 3 weeks in primary I moved my first Flanders to secondary. SG is currently at 1.02 which may seem a bit high but I mashed high (158 degrees) and used 2.5 lbs of unmalted wheat, so there's a fair bit of sugars in there that are going to give the Brett plenty to work on over time (OG was 1.055). I can already taste a bit of sour funk in there so that's encouraging. I also purposely racked some of the yeastcake over to the secondary.
I brewed Flanders 02 today with a similar recipe only I used only 1 lb of unmalted wheat this time and used 1.5lbs of flaked maize instead. I also added 1lb Malto-Dextrine at the end of the boil this time. I used the yeastcake from the first Flanders for the second (S-05 and Roselare blend). I would assume that this second batch will sour more quickly than the first batch as there should be more yeast and the Malto-Dextrine should help too.

 

[DeTech]

My sourness level isn't where I want to be at 3mos. My sach finished at 1.016 which seems low after reading through the thread. Even tho it's early I'm going to add some MD. Since MD has an SG potential of 40pts, a 1/2 lb should get me from 1.016 to 1.020 in a 5 Gal batch.

It's about time to start the next batch... (the sour must flow). this time I'm mashing in crazy high 158-162. wish me luck.

 

[eastoak]

My sourness level isn't where I want to be at 3mos. My sach finished at 1.016 which seems low after reading through the thread. Even tho it's early I'm going to add some MD. Since MD has an SG potential of 40pts, a 1/2 lb should get me from 1.016 to 1.020 in a 5 Gal batch.

It's about time to start the next batch... (the sour must flow). this time I'm mashing in crazy high 158-162. wish me luck.

i would not worry about the sourness level at 3 months, if you used sour bugs it will be sour come bottling time. it's very hard to predict how sour a beer will be by tasting it 3 months in, i would claim it's impossible. how can one tell that a 1.020 beer will be more or less sour than a 1.016 beer? i'm not saying you should or shouldn't add MD just that adding it is not directly related to the level of sourness.

 

[Aschecte]

i would not worry about the sourness level at 3 months, if you used sour bugs it will be sour come bottling time. it's very hard to predict how sour a beer will be by tasting it 3 months in, i would claim it's impossible. how can one tell that a 1.020 beer will be more or less sour than a 1.016 beer? i'm not saying you should or shouldn't add MD just that adding it is not directly related to the level of sourness.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but if your sacch strain finished at 1.016 that leaves .016 sugars left for all those souring bugs that can eat the dextrins the sacch cannot and therefore logic says a lot more sourness will be produced. Fwiw .016 worth of dextrins is probably a decent amount to work with to get you the sourness desired.

 

[DeTech]

Sold. Thanks I'll let it be. It's so hard to leave it alone sometimes.

 

[eastoak]

Correct me if I'm wrong here but if your sacch strain finished at 1.016 that leaves .016 sugars left for all those souring bugs that can eat the dextrins the sacch cannot and therefore logic says a lot more sourness will be produced. Fwiw .016 worth of dextrins is probably a decent amount to work with to get you the sourness desired.

the souring bugs are using more than just dextrins, they are munching on byproducts made by other bacteria or yeast, dead yeast, trub, wood sugars (if you are using wood) in addition to the usual dextrins/sugars.

 

[kingwood-kid]

Correct me if I'm wrong here but if your sacch strain finished at 1.016 that leaves .016 sugars left for all those souring bugs that can eat the dextrins the sacch cannot and therefore logic says a lot more sourness will be produced. Fwiw .016 worth of dextrins is probably a decent amount to work with to get you the sourness desired.

Alcohol is less dense than water, so there are more than .016 worth of sugars left. Approximately twice as many, in fact. Depending on the proof, most liquor has a specific gravity just under 0.800 Not that all of those remaining sugars will be fermented, but they're in there.

 

[Aschecte]

Alcohol is less dense than water, so there are more than .016 worth of sugars left. Approximately twice as many, in fact. Depending on the proof, most liquor has a specific gravity just under 0.800 Not that all of those remaining sugars will be fermented, but they're in there.

Good point I forgot to figure for that... but still supports my point that there is still a decent amount for all those bugs to chomp on.

 

[Matteo57]

When you add oak into these beers, do you let the oak sit in water or beer or whatever for a week or two before putting it into the secondary for... the duration of the secondary aging process? How long do you leave the oak in there? I'm thinking of using american or french oak cubes.
Thanks!
If I used WLP530 and WLP001 in primary then racked to secondary onto rosalare... how different would the two versions be?