Rinse Yeast or Leave in Bucket?

[slayer021175666]

Hey guys.
I have two buckets which make a 10 gallon recipe that is ready to be kegged right now and I want to brew again, tomorrow. My initial idea was, to just pour the new beer right on the yeast cake in the buckets. My problem is, I would like to keg those beers up today so that I can have them to drink tomorrow and I'm wondering if I should rinse the yeast that's in the buckets and decant it into jars or would it be okay to just leave a little bit of beer on top of the yeast in the buckets and reseal the bucket lids. I mean, would the air space inside the bucket infect the yeast or anything? It seems like it would be okay but, I wanted to ask. I'd rather not go through the trouble of rinsing and decanting if possible when I'm going to brew tomorrow, anyway.

 

[Dland]

I regularly put new wort right on yeast cake from previous brew. Like your plan, I usually brew again right after kegging previous batch.

I have fermentors with bottom dump capability, so I most of the solids are gone before I add new wort. Without bottom dump, I might decant some of the yeasty beer at bottom of bucket, clean out most of solids, then put yeasty beer back before adding new wort. But I run some of my beers for many cycles on same yeast, if you are doing it just for one more batch, it is probably fine to do as you said and just leave a little beer on top of trub.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

Hey guys.
I have two buckets which make a 10 gallon recipe that is ready to be kegged right now and I want to brew again, tomorrow. My initial idea was, to just pour the new beer right on the yeast cake in the buckets. My problem is, I would like to keg those beers up today so that I can have them to drink tomorrow and I'm wondering if I should rinse the yeast that's in the buckets and decant it into jars or would it be okay to just leave a little bit of beer on top of the yeast in the buckets and reseal the bucket lids. I mean, would the air space inside the bucket infect the yeast or anything? It seems like it would be okay but, I wanted to ask. I'd rather not go through the trouble of rinsing and decanting if possible when I'm going to brew tomorrow, anyway.

It will be fine with a little bit of beer on top of the yeast

 

[slayer021175666]

Thank you, guys. Just now I read this thing that said pitching on the cake is never a good idea because it is over pitching the yeast. I wonder if it would be okay if I split the yeast cake in one bucket in order to make two buckets of beer. Instead of, using both yeast cakes. Just, split one yeast cake between the two five gallon buckets on my next brew. What are you guys think?

 

[Dr_Jeff]

It will be fine either way

 

[hotbeer]

Might take into consideration how much is trub and how much is yeast. Especially if the remaining volume of your FV is getting scarce compared to how much wort you intend to put in there.

 

[Sammy86]

Just now I read this thing that said pitching on the cake is never a good idea because it is over pitching the yeast

If it was such a bad idea, then why do people do it all the time with good results?

 

[slayer021175666]

I don't know. I've done it before with good results, myself. It's just something I read today.

 

[kevin58]

This has been posted by Denny Conn several times when the question of yeast rinsing/washing comes up. The short version is... don't.

DON’T WASH/RINSE YOUR YEAST!

Don't rinse your yeast (unless you use acid you're rinsing, not, washing.) Read this...From Mark Van Ditta
Basically, it has always been a bad move that has been difficult to kill because every newbie wants to
gain some street cred by publishing an article on yeast rinsing. Do you want to know where the practice
of rinsing yeast with boiled water originated within the amateur brewing community? Charlie Papazian
introduced it in the “New Complete Joy of Homebrewing” (it may even date back to an earlier
publication of that book). He also promoted the use of a secondary fermentation vessel as a way to
prevent autolysis. While using a secondary fermentation vessel to prevent autolysis has gone the way of
the do-do bird, amateur brewers still cling to yeast rinsing, a practice that is not based on science and
provides no microbiological advantage.
Brewing yeast strains are Crabtree positive. What that means is that whenever the medium gravity is
above the Crabtree threshold of 0.2% w/v (an S.G. of 1.0008), brewing yeast cultures will chose
fermentation over respiration even in the presence of O2. There is scientific evidence that brewing
cultures became Crabtree positive due to competitive pressure. You see, the main reason why we have
cell counts in the first place is that they are primarily a safeguard against a micro-organism other than the
pitched yeast culture owning the wort. From the time a yeast culture is pitched until the culture grows
large enough to reach high krausen, it is in competition for ownership of the wort with wild microflora
(boiled wort is not absolutely sterile and sanitization is not a synonym for sterilization). A yeast culture
owns a batch of wort by doing three things. First, it consumes all of the dissolved O2, shutting out
aerobic microflora. It then lowers the pH to around 4, which shuts out pH sensitive microflora. The pH
sensitive microflora include the pathogen Clostridium botulinum, which cannot replicate below a pH of
4.6. The final defense that a yeast culture mounts is the production of ethanol, which is toxic to all living
organism at a given level, even human beings (i.e., people die from alcohol poisoning every day).
When a brewer rinses yeast with boiled water, he/she removes the protective force field that a yeast
culture built for itself, basically opening it up to infection from house microflora while providing zero
microbiological advantage. A yeast culture does not need to be kept free from trub and hop particulate
matter. It is needs to be kept as free from wild microflora as possible because every time a culture is
pitched it is an opportunity for microflora other than the culture to replicate. This reality is what places
an upper limit on bottom-cropped yeast more so than any other reason when a yeast culture is not
serially overpitched.
Now, top-cropping an interesting take on cropping. While the top-cropped yeast should also be stored
under green beer, top-cropping naturally purifies a yeast culture because wild microflora do not floc to
the top, which means that top-cropped yeast can be re-pitched almost indefinitely as long as care is
taken to not infect the culture. The sad thing is that I have never heard of true top-cropping lager yeast.
If you need further evidence that yeast rinsing an amateur brewer fabrication that is not based on
microbiology, watch how a craft or industrial brewery bottom crops yeast. They either pump it out of
the cone into a yeast brink for temporary storage or into a fermentation vessel with fresh wort. I have
yet to see a professional brewery rinse yeast with water before repitching it.

 

[slayer021175666]

This has been posted by Denny Conn several times when the question of yeast rinsing/washing comes up. The short version is... don't.

DON’T WASH/RINSE YOUR YEAST!

Don't rinse your yeast (unless you use acid you're rinsing, not, washing.) Read this...From Mark Van Ditta
Basically, it has always been a bad move that has been difficult to kill because every newbie wants to
gain some street cred by publishing an article on yeast rinsing. Do you want to know where the practice
of rinsing yeast with boiled water originated within the amateur brewing community? Charlie Papazian
introduced it in the “New Complete Joy of Homebrewing” (it may even date back to an earlier
publication of that book). He also promoted the use of a secondary fermentation vessel as a way to
prevent autolysis. While using a secondary fermentation vessel to prevent autolysis has gone the way of
the do-do bird, amateur brewers still cling to yeast rinsing, a practice that is not based on science and
provides no microbiological advantage.
Brewing yeast strains are Crabtree positive. What that means is that whenever the medium gravity is
above the Crabtree threshold of 0.2% w/v (an S.G. of 1.0008), brewing yeast cultures will chose
fermentation over respiration even in the presence of O2. There is scientific evidence that brewing
cultures became Crabtree positive due to competitive pressure. You see, the main reason why we have
cell counts in the first place is that they are primarily a safeguard against a micro-organism other than the
pitched yeast culture owning the wort. From the time a yeast culture is pitched until the culture grows
large enough to reach high krausen, it is in competition for ownership of the wort with wild microflora
(boiled wort is not absolutely sterile and sanitization is not a synonym for sterilization). A yeast culture
owns a batch of wort by doing three things. First, it consumes all of the dissolved O2, shutting out
aerobic microflora. It then lowers the pH to around 4, which shuts out pH sensitive microflora. The pH
sensitive microflora include the pathogen Clostridium botulinum, which cannot replicate below a pH of
4.6. The final defense that a yeast culture mounts is the production of ethanol, which is toxic to all living
organism at a given level, even human beings (i.e., people die from alcohol poisoning every day).
When a brewer rinses yeast with boiled water, he/she removes the protective force field that a yeast
culture built for itself, basically opening it up to infection from house microflora while providing zero
microbiological advantage. A yeast culture does not need to be kept free from trub and hop particulate
matter. It is needs to be kept as free from wild microflora as possible because every time a culture is
pitched it is an opportunity for microflora other than the culture to replicate. This reality is what places
an upper limit on bottom-cropped yeast more so than any other reason when a yeast culture is not
serially overpitched.
Now, top-cropping an interesting take on cropping. While the top-cropped yeast should also be stored
under green beer, top-cropping naturally purifies a yeast culture because wild microflora do not floc to
the top, which means that top-cropped yeast can be re-pitched almost indefinitely as long as care is
taken to not infect the culture. The sad thing is that I have never heard of true top-cropping lager yeast.
If you need further evidence that yeast rinsing an amateur brewer fabrication that is not based on
microbiology, watch how a craft or industrial brewery bottom crops yeast. They either pump it out of
the cone into a yeast brink for temporary storage or into a fermentation vessel with fresh wort. I have
yet to see a professional brewery rinse yeast with water before repitching it.

Top cropping is my usual way. This time, I wasn't able to because I was working and I missed it. I usually store the top crop yeast on distilled or r/o water. I have heard arguments for and against this. Yours is probably the best argument that I've ever heard against it. What I'm wondering is, where would you get green beer from if you top crop? I mean, I crop with a slotted spoon and any beer just drains back into the fermenter through the slots in the spoon. That's why I always filled up the rest of the jar with distilled or r/o water.

 

[ToBrewIsHuman]

Here’s my opinion: Do what you like! If it doesn’t work, well, lesson learned I guess. I’ve followed the advice of some people and wished I hadn’t in some cases, likewise, I wish I had followed the advice people had provided in others. The point is, every brewing situation is different. There will always be points of contention but the whole idea of brewing, in my opinion is to have fun and enjoy the experience and the fruits of your labors. Too many “self entitled experts” spoil the experience. I say this while marveling at the fact that the experimental Mango Hefeweizen I created is absolutely fantastic and look forward to brewing other fruit based beers. Guava is up next. Good luck with your brewing and let us know how it goes!

 

[Kickass]

I’d leave the yeast and direct pitch onto it. That’s a common practice for me.

I’d don’t think over pitching on a 5 gallon homebrew scale is a concern.

 

[odie]

You are not going to keg today and drink tomorrow unless you seriously crank up the pressure and force it. But then it will still be cloudy until it all settles.

I would just wait to keg. Brew up the new batch. Right before you are ready to pitch the fresh wort, keg what's in the fermenter and then dump the kettle into the just emptied bucket.

FWIW...I am fermenting in the keg and dumping on the yeast cake in the keg. What I do is when a keg goes empty I will just leave it sealed up and store it cold. The yeast cake inside is no longer covered with a layer of beer but no air is getting inside and it seems to stay "wet". I'll then brew another beer. Once it's cooled down and ready for yeast, I will open the keg and dump the fresh wort in and seal it back up and let it ferment.

Only done a few times but so far it's been working ok.

 

[SeeMont]

You are not going to keg today and drink tomorrow unless you seriously crank up the pressure and force it. But then it will still be cloudy until it all settles.

I would just wait to keg. Brew up the new batch. Right before you are ready to pitch the fresh wort, keg what's in the fermenter and then dump the kettle into the just emptied bucket.

FWIW...I am fermenting in the keg and dumping on the yeast cake in the keg. What I do is when a keg goes empty I will just leave it sealed up and store it cold. The yeast cake inside is no longer covered with a layer of beer but no air is getting inside and it seems to stay "wet". I'll then brew another beer. Once it's cooled down and ready for yeast, I will open the keg and dump the fresh wort in and seal it back up and let it ferment.

Only done a few times but so far it's been working ok.

So after your ferment in your keg, Do you rack out to another keg? Are you serving out of your fermentation keg? I know that there is a fair amount of yeasty sediment in the bottom of my serving keg, I wonder if I can just add chilled wort to this and let it ferment?

 

[odie]

I ferment and serve from same keg.

I do run the entire kettle thru a 200 micron bucket strainer. Most all the trub is removed before the keg. So the keg sediment is mostly all yeast.

 

[SeeMont]

I ferment and serve from same keg.

I do run the entire kettle thru a 200 micron bucket strainer. Most all the trub is removed before the keg. So the keg sediment is mostly all yeast.

Thanks, this sounds interesting.
And then you just ferment right on top of what is left in your serving keg? How many times will you reuse the same yeast, before you clean the keg?
Thanks for this
Cheers

 

[odie]

yep. when the last pint blows out the tap, there is nothing but a yeast blob in the bottom of the keg. But you must use a floating dip tube, otherwise your first pint blows all the yeast out.

You can repeat several times. Once you get something you don't care for its time to clean the keg and start fresh.

Usually you can go a few rounds but I would recommend a "re-start" after a few times rather than wait until a batch goes south....

 

[SeeMont]

yep. when the last pint blows out the tap, there is nothing but a yeast blob in the bottom of the keg. But you must use a floating dip tube, otherwise your first pint blows all the yeast out.

You can repeat several times. Once you get something you don't care for its time to clean the keg and start fresh.

Usually you can go a few rounds but I would recommend a "re-start" after a few times rather than wait until a batch goes south....

Rather than a floating Dip tube, Have you tried just shortening the standard tube?
I use a 12 gallon Corney keg. (old eye wash keg) for my NEIPA brews and then transfer under pressure. I shortened the tube so I leave the yeast. I was thinking of just adding more wort and let it go.

 

[odie]

No but when I first started fermenting in the keg I left the old tube in place.

What happens is your first couple pints are full of yeast. You can harvest 2-3 yeast cakes or more. Fill some half pint mason jars and when they settle you will have a nice 1/2-1" yeast cake in each one with beer on top to seal and protect it........plus, when the keg is empty there will still be residual yeast left that is enough to just pitch fresh wort onto and it will ferment again.

If you wish to harvest lots of yeast for multiple jars then leave the old dip tube in place and collect more than you will ever need.

The down side of a standard dip tube is that it pulls beer from the bottom. The best beer is at the top since everything settles downward. The first few pints you drink will be cloudy, hazy, various clarity, etc until the beer fully settles out. Anytime the keg is moved or disturbed they yeast may lift and the tube will pick it up until it settles again.


With a floating dip tube, the first pint of beer is nice and clear. And it will pour clear until the last pint, which is when the yeast comes out. Also, any time you disturb or move the keg, any yeast that is stirred up will stay low and not get picked up by the floating dip tube. If you are taking the keg to a party or something, this is a very important point.

The down side of a floating dip tube is you will not be able to harvest yeast efficiently nor effectively. All the yeast is trapped at the bottom. It will only come out when you draw that last pint. It's almost certainly going to happen while refilling your pint glass. So it's not a clean and sanitized container.

The best you can hope for is to immediately stop, get a sanitized mason jar and then finish "blowing the keg" to capture the remaining yeast to save for later....once you fully blow the keg, there is still going to be lots of yeast inside the keg for a fresh pitch of new wort. You could also try removing the gas post, flip the keg and try pouring any residual yeast out into a mason jar. But that yeast is going to be very gooey and there is no beer left to help wash it out.

Bottom line...if you need to multiple your yeast bank fast and get several batches of beer going quick, use the original dip tube and multiple a single yeast packet into several yeasts. Each one of which will then produce several yeast harvests once again. You can quickly, exponentially grow your yeast supply. But they are all the same yeast. But most brewers have a favorite go to for most their beers. You have your preferred ale or lager yeast that carries 75% of your work load or more.

If you use several different yeast all the time for all kinds of different styles and type beers that you are always doing...then the floating dip tube would allow you to have dedicated kegs for different yeasts. For example, I keep a hefe yeast keg, czech pils keg, english ale yeast, vienna/bock, saison yeast, kolsch yeast keg, SU-05 yeast keg, honey brown keg all in rotation. When one goes empty I brew another of the same beer or very similar and pour the kettle into the old yeast on the keg and let it ferment again. The empty kegs are always left sealed and pressurized and cold stored until they get filled with fresh wort.

 

[JAReeves]

I'm a little late to this party, but unless you are dropping fresh wort onto a yeast cake immediately, I would be concerned about the possibility of souring microbes/wild yeasties taking over the remaining beer/trub/yeastcake. I have made amazing beers and ciders on the leftover cake, but I drop fresh food on them the same day. If it was going to sit for any length of time, I would think that adding some boiled wort extract might kick off a small fermentation, thereby creating a blanket of CO2 over your cake and protecting it until you could make the next batch. But, I'm not a professional brewer or microbiologist.

 

[slayer021175666]

I'm a little late to this party, but unless you are dropping fresh wort onto a yeast cake immediately, I would be concerned about the possibility of souring microbes/wild yeasties taking over the remaining beer/trub/yeastcake. I have made amazing beers and ciders on the leftover cake, but I drop fresh food on them the same day. If it was going to sit for any length of time, I would think that adding some boiled wort extract might kick off a small fermentation, thereby creating a blanket of CO2 over your cake and protecting it until you could make the next batch. But, I'm not a professional brewer or microbiologist.

Well, the whole thing went south. I did get some lactobacillus so, I can't use that yeast anyway. I'm drinking a slightly sour hef, right now. You did make me think though, in the future, if I wanted to try it, I could just fill up the bucket with CO2 out of my tank! Sounds like a good idea to me.

 

[odie]

I'm a little late to this party, but unless you are dropping fresh wort onto a yeast cake immediately, I would be concerned about the possibility of souring microbes/wild yeasties taking over the remaining beer/trub/yeastcake. I have made amazing beers and ciders on the leftover cake, but I drop fresh food on them the same day. If it was going to sit for any length of time, I would think that adding some boiled wort extract might kick off a small fermentation, thereby creating a blanket of CO2 over your cake and protecting it until you could make the next batch. But, I'm not a professional brewer or microbiologist.

This is exactly my concern...so I leave my kegs sealed, pressurized and cold until I have fresh wort to dump. Usually within a few days after the keg "blows".

If I wasn't fermenting in sealed kegs, then I would brew a fresh beer ready to dump on the yeast cake BEFORE I racked that fermenter bucket into bottles or a serving keg.

 

[z-bob]

I just saw this thread. Here's what I woulda done: (a little late) Pour the schmutz from the bottom of the fermenter along with its residual beer into 2 sanitized jars with lids and put them in the fridge. Label them, or at least label one of them. Don't bother trying to clean it but do clean the bucket, of course.

While you're brewing your next batch in a day or two, take one of the jars out and let it warm up, and pour the whole thing in when you're ready to pitch. Leave the other jar in the fridge for next time.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Sanitize a turkey baster, then use it to fill some sanitized tubes for later use. The one time I poured wort onto an entire layer of yeast cake, it took me hours to clean up the mess fermentation made.