RIMS for Dummies

[Sawdustguy]

I really wonder about using the PID alarm. Here is the problem as I see it... you are relying on the PID temp probe to set the alarm when the temp gets to high, but if the RIMs tube empties what will the probe read? I understand that it "should" work if the element boils the tube empty and generates steam, but I'm not sure it will really work??

If the tube empties it's gonna get real hot in that tube real fast. The temperature probe will read that and and as soon as the temperature goes above the alarm setting the PID relay will open therefore breaking the connection from the PID to the SSR. That will turn off the element. I am from the better safe than sorry school so I use both the alarm relay and flow switch.

 

[Sawdustguy]

My local home depot has 1500W 120v elements for under $10.

I just found out mine does also but you have to make sure they are low density.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

If the tube empties it's gonna get real hot in that tube real fast. The temperature probe will read that and and as soon as the temperature goes above the alarm setting the PID relay will open therefore breaking the connection from the PID to the SSR. That will turn off the element. I am from the better safe than sorry school so I use both the alarm relay and flow switch.

Well, I agree the element is gonna get really hot really quick, but I don't know if the air in the tube would transfer the temp to the probe quick enough to save the element?

I agree if you got it you might as well use it... just not sure I would depend on it to do the job.

 

[Reelale]

Well, I agree the element is gonna get really hot really quick, but I don't know if the air in the tube would transfer the temp to the probe quick enough to save the element?

I agree if you got it you might as well use it... just not sure I would depend on it to do the job.

That's my concern as well. What is the fail-safe, other than making sure you have flow?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

That's my concern as well. What is the fail-safe, other than making sure you have flow?

I tested mine as if I had a stuck mash by closing the valve and completely stopped the flow...
I use a BCS460 and the control, caught the temp before it reached 170f. (It spiked about 10f above the setpoint) That is out of the box setup (I can't take credit fur tuning), I'm not sure an Auber PID would do the same, the other thing is that my tube is 2" in diameter so it has a fairly large volume to "dampen" the temp spike.

What I haven't tested is what happens if the tube drains... say a hose breaks???

I think you HAVE to make sure that the tube will not empty from a siphon or something... my input is lower than the output and both are well below the level of the mash in the mash tun.

A flow switch on the output of the rims should work... But most I have seen don't seem to be rated very well for particulates in the flow... so, I don't know??? I don't have one, but I'm interested to see how it works out. (I know SawDustGuy has a flow switch, but I don't know the specs on his or if he has tested it with wort)

You can see the spikes in this graph where I closed the valve, then the temp leveled off to setpoint (157), then where I opened the valve back up. (The setpoint was 130 the first time I closed the valve)

 

[Reelale]

I'm very interested in the flow switch design. It looks like your's behaved well, if I am reading the graph right. Never did exceed 170F. That's good, no?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I'm very interested in the flow switch design. It looks like your's behaved well, if I am reading the graph right. Never did exceed 170F. That's good, no?

Yes, I am very happy with the way it behaved. The fear was that it would almost immediately boil the wort in the tube, turn it to steam and empty the tube which would expose the element to a dry fire.

 

[Reelale]

I'm very much hoping that a PID will react the same. If it does, I can live with that, along with a visual check of wort flow. I still would like to see a design/wiring for a flow switch

 

[ScottSA]

i know this is the RIMS for Dummies thread, so its okay to ask this...

Whats the difference between HD and LD elements? is there a way i can tell by looking other than it saying so?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

HD, LD and ELD (extra low density, I think) are the choices.
What it relates to is the surface area of the element that the heat is generated through... so basically how hot each square inch of surface becomes.

A larger element with the same watt rating is going to be a lower watt density.

So without a label, or another element to compare, I don't know anyway you can tell by looking. If you are looking at a local store, you might be able to find more info available for the element on-line.

 

[Reelale]

I'm new too, but IIRC, the HD and LD, and ULD refer to the watt density. In other words, how the watts are spread out over the area of the element. Larger=less dense.

 

[Sawdustguy]

Well, I agree the element is gonna get really hot really quick, but I don't know if the air in the tube would transfer the temp to the probe quick enough to save the element?

I agree if you got it you might as well use it... just not sure I would depend on it to do the job.

I don't think it is as much of a function of the probe as much as it is a function of how fast can the pid respond to the change in temperature as read from the probe. The probe reads the change in temperature. It doesn't know whether it is in a liquid or air, nor does it care.

I tested mine as if I had a stuck mash by closing the valve and completely stopped the flow...
I use a BCS460 and the control, caught the temp before it reached 170f. (It spiked about 10f above the setpoint) That is out of the box setup (I can't take credit fur tuning), I'm not sure an Auber PID would do the same, the other thing is that my tube is 2" in diameter so it has a fairly large volume to "dampen" the temp spike.

The Auber Instruments PID responds very quickly. It may be a bit more robust for the application being it is designed explicitly as a PID instead of a processor running PID software. This is a hunch on my part though.

The flow switch works well with wort so far but I have done only 7 brews since installing it. I do however clean it thoroughly after every brew (love those triclovers, makes disassembly a piece of cake)

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I don't think it is as much of a function of the probe as much as it is a function of how fast can the pid respond to the change in temperature as read from the probe. The probe reads the change in temperature. It doesn't know whether it is in a liquid or air, nor does it care.
...

I know the PID responds to the probe, but the temp of the probe has to change before the PID will react.

As an example;
If a heating element is submerged in water and the surface of the element is 212f, you won't be able to put you hand in the water (it will all be 212f). However, in open air, you can put your hand relatively close to a red hot element that is way hotter than 212f.

The Auber Instruments PID responds very quickly. It may be a bit more robust for the application being it is designed explicitly as a PID instead of a processor running PID software. This is a hunch on my part though.

The Auber PID will respond based on it's tuning. If it was Auto Tuned with a high volume of liquid flowing across the element then when/if the flow stops, there may be an issue.

 

[Sawdustguy]

I know the PID responds to the probe, but the temp of the probe has to change before the PID will react.

As an example;
If a heating element is submerged in water and the surface of the element is 212f, you won't be able to put you hand in the water (it will all be 212f). However, in open air, you can put your hand relatively close to a red hot element that is way hotter than 212f. The Auber PID will respond based on it's tuning. If it was Auto Tuned with a high volume of liquid flowing across the element then when/if the flow stops, there may be an issue.

That is a proximity issue. The sensor and PID will respond quick enough but the issue is if the sensor is close enough to the element to sense the heat rise. If the water is at 212f and the sensor is in the water it will measure the rise easily. The only time I see this being a problem is when the inside of the RIMS tube is completely dry. With a stuck mash there should be some fluid left in the tube that will absorb heat and turn to steam and that will definitely be responded to by the PID. This is exactly why I mount my RIMS tube horizontally with the outlets facing upwards. The tube will never be dry when experiencing a stuck mash and the protect relay will kick in because it will be submerged.

 

[Reelale]

Can someone post the parameters and process for programming the AL1 or AL2 outputs on the PID to prevent dry-firing of the RIMS element? Thanks.

 

[EarthBound]

I think it would be easier to use a CROSS and simply put a valve on the 4th side. After the brew session, open the valve and drain. But that is me.

I know you can't hear this Pol,, but THANK YOU for being someone else who's saying this. Crosses should be used so much more. Maybe they aren't because they're more expensive than two tees... *shrugs* but I think it's way better. In this case, it's with an E-RIMS tube, but there are man yother applications. For instance, I was thinking of drilling two holes (like most people) near the bottom of the kegs - one for the sightglass/thermowell combination and one for the ball valve. However, I can combine that elbow and tee into one cross using only one hole. It looks better and is easier to use because I have the ball valve on the bottom of the cross. Yeah.

 

[erikrocks]

First of all, thank you. Everyone. This thread is awesome.

I'm not sure, though, how people are connecting the tubing to the RIMS tees. Are you using hose barbs and hose clamps? Since I'm using QD's on all my tubing, can I just screw two QD's into the tees on the RIMS pipe?

 

[jerryalan]

First of all, thank you. Everyone. This thread is awesome.

I'm not sure, though, how people are connecting the tubing to the RIMS tees. Are you using hose barbs and hose clamps? Since I'm using QD's on all my tubing, can I just screw two QD's into the tees on the RIMS pipe?

Yup. I'm in process of building this right now and I will be screwing in male QD's on both tees.

 

[klyph]

First of all, thank you. Everyone. This thread is awesome.

I'm not sure, though, how people are connecting the tubing to the RIMS tees. Are you using hose barbs and hose clamps? Since I'm using QD's on all my tubing, can I just screw two QD's into the tees on the RIMS pipe?

I have the McMaster brass quick connects on mine.

 

[erikrocks]

Cool. Thanks.

 

[limulus]

Nice heater

 

[Bru]

Whats the purpose of having a T-peice on both ends ? In other words run the wort straight in from the opposite side the element is installed.

 

[Reelale]

Whats the purpose of having a T-peice on both ends ? In other words run the wort straight in from the opposite side the element is installed.

Probably one end for thermocouple, one end for element. Tees are for wort in/out.

 

[Bru]

In this case the thermocouple is installed on the same side as the element. The wort could enter from the end. Unless theres another reason for the t-peice straight flow would be better.

 

[IPAAAA]

Anyone have a basic how-to explanation on how this all works. It is kinda confusing to look at this all and figure out what all everything does.

Hopefully this isn't too dumb of a question.

 

[limulus]

Anyone have a basic how-to explanation on how this all works. It is kinda confusing to look at this all and figure out what all everything does.

Hopefully this isn't too dumb of a question.

I'll be your Huckleberry: Basically you have a mash tun with a valve at the bottom. That MT can be a keggle or a cooler. A pump recirculates wort from the bottom and that passes through a heating tube (RIMS tube like the copper one a few posts up) and gently back to the top of the grain bed. Most people use a PID of some sort with a K-type probe inserted into the wort or into the RIMS tube. That tells the heater when to cycle on and off for maintaining the mash temp. The pump recirculates the wort for the entire mash. Never allow the heating element to run dry or you'll be replacing it.

A lot of guys build their own PID but you can buy a ready made one like I did from Auber Instruments. Also, the RIMS tube parts are not available at your local Home Depot or Lowes. The weldless parts are what most guys have used and you will spend around $100 for those in stainless. However, there is a vendor on this forum who is manufacturing a ready to use welded tube for $75! http://brewersequipment.com/SSRimsTube.html
You will also need the electric element that screws into the tube and hose barbs for your tubing. The elements are typically water heater elements and they can be bought at HD or Lowes. Everyone recommends a low watt density element so your wort will not scorch. There are some threads here about which ones to use and how to wire them.

You could also do this:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/introducing-lazy-mans-rims-195790/

 

[Reelale]

In this case the thermocouple is installed on the same side as the element. The wort could enter from the end. Unless theres another reason for the t-peice straight flow would be better.

Yes, on closer inspection I see that. Seems counter-intuitive to have the temp probe so close to the element. I would want it measuring the flow from the outlet.

 

[Bru]

I suspect the probe is at the outlet but that doesn't explain why there is a T at each end. Hopefully klyph will tell us.

 

[pickles]

Yes, on closer inspection I see that. Seems counter-intuitive to have the temp probe so close to the element. I would want it measuring the flow from the outlet.

It is rather close to the element, but looking at his pump orientation, I would say it is monitoring the outlet.

 

[IPAAAA]

I'll be your Huckleberry: Basically you have a mash tun with a valve at the bottom. That MT can be a keggle or a cooler. A pump recirculates wort from the bottom and that passes through a heating tube (RIMS tube like the copper one a few posts up) and gently back to the top of the grain bed. Most people use a PID of some sort with a K-type probe inserted into the wort or into the RIMS tube. That tells the heater when to cycle on and off for maintaining the mash temp. The pump recirculates the wort for the entire mash. Never allow the heating element to run dry or you'll be replacing it.

A lot of guys build their own PID but you can buy a ready made one like I did from Auber Instruments. Also, the RIMS tube parts are not available at your local Home Depot or Lowes. The weldless parts are what most guys have used and you will spend around $100 for those in stainless. However, there is a vendor on this forum who is manufacturing a ready to use welded tube for $75! http://brewersequipment.com/SSRimsTube.html
You will also need the electric element that screws into the tube and hose barbs for your tubing. The elements are typically water heater elements and they can be bought at HD or Lowes. Everyone recommends a low watt density element so your wort will not scorch. There are some threads here about which ones to use and how to wire them.

You could also do this:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/introducing-lazy-mans-rims-195790/

Thanks.

So this is basically all for the mashing processes to be easier? You don't have to sparge or anything with a recirculating mash since your entire water volume is already gonna be in there?