RIMS for Dummies

[The Pol]

No big deal. I do think that the alarm relay could be set to say 200* and be used to permanently (only until power is cycled) disconnect the control lines between the PID and SSR with a small latching relay and act to save your element in case of a stuck sparge. It certainly would be simple and inexpensive to implement.

Where would one find such a relay? I am interested.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Pol, this is the FB I use. Same as you?
http://www.northernbrewer.com/default/abt-large-hole-false-bottom-1-2-hole-no-elbow.html


Sorry bout that Ed. PIDs work real well and only seem simple. Just be grateful that they have a decent auto tune function! I've spent days manually tuning PIDs for some processes.

OP, sorry we derailed yah. Maybe this should be split?

Sometimes you should just keep quiet...
The BCS-460 does not have an Auto Tune feature. I think I have found my Guru.

BTW... I put a new drawing in the other thread you were helping me in

Ed

 

[CodeRage]

I had a few drinks with a client at lunch and may not be thinking clearly but wouldn't an easy, inexpensive solution be to put some sort of small mechanical latching relay between the pid and ssr that would be latched by the PID's alarm relay output.

You could run the control line through an alarm output before going to the SSR. Set a low (Yes I meant low) level alarm where you do not want the mash temp to exceed. When the alarm clears the contact will open and the element will turn off.

You should be paid to drink!

 

[CodeRage]

Sometimes you should just keep quiet...
The BCS-460 does not have an Auto Tune feature. I think I have found my Guru.

BTW... I put a new drawing in the other thread you were helping me in

Ed

Lol, me or, well... I won't throw Kladue under the bus! oops

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Pol, this is the FB I use. Same as you?
http://www.northernbrewer.com/default/abt-large-hole-false-bottom-1-2-hole-no-elbow.html


Sorry bout that Ed. PIDs work real well and only seem simple. Just be grateful that they have a decent auto tune function! I've spent days manually tuning PIDs for some processes.

OP, sorry we derailed yah. Maybe this should be split?

Had a thought...
So what would happen if I Auto Tuned my PID with the RIMs tube full, but the pump OFF. Then started the circulation. It may not be as efficient at heating the mash volume, but would it protect the element in case of a stuck mash?

Ed

 

[The Pol]

You could run the control line through an alarm output before going to the SSR. Set a low (Yes I meant low) level alarm where you do not want the mash temp to exceed. When the alarm clears the contact will open and the element will turn off.

You should be paid to drink!

Hrmm, so the PID output would be routed through the PID LOW Alarm... set the Alarm to the value that suits me, say 160F so that I do not bake my elements.

 

[Sawdustguy]

You could run the control line through an alarm output before going to the SSR. Set a low (Yes I meant low) level alarm where you do not want the mash temp to exceed. When the alarm clears the contact will open and the element will turn off.

You should be paid to drink!

Maybe with a few less drinks I would have realized you don't need an external relay and can just use the alarm relay. Hell, I'm goin back for Harry Hour!

 

[The Pol]

Maybe with a few less drinks I would have realized you don't need an external relay and can just use the alarm relay. Hell, I'm goin back for Harry Hour!

Next time I am out in NY, we can discuss how smart you are.

 

[CodeRage]

Had a thought...
So what would happen if I Auto Tuned my PID with the RIMs tube full, but the pump OFF. Then started the circulation. It may not be as efficient at heating the mash volume, but would it protect the element in case of a stuck mash?

Ed

It would make for an under tuned PID. During regular operations it would be very reluctant to get to the set point. The low level alarm sounds like the best suggestion to me. I wounder if you can reconfigure those as active open or closed? Sure it is in the manual somewhere.

 

[p-nut]

Where would one find such a relay? I am interested.

I am using a RIMS heater like the one in this thread. I am using a Johnson Controls A19ADB. This is located where Sawdustguy put his temperature probe. http://www.shancontrols.com/PDF/A19 Series Heating Thermostats.pdf
It has a setpoint knob and a manual reset. I had to add a 1/2" Tee on the output side of the RIMS for my temp sensor. I am using the A19 to open a 40 amp contactor that feeds the SSR. This way if it trips it will kill both legs going to the element. I am also using a current transducer on the hot leg of the pump. If the pump turns off for any reason it will also open the contactor. I schedule mine to come on before I wake up so I am trying to be as safe as possible. Keep in mind I got most of my stuff from work for free.

 

[The Pol]

Looks like I can use the Alarm mode on the PID, which will be nice, no extra stuff!

 

[bakins]

So basically if you ever get a stuck mash, you are completely hosed. Sounds like an awesome way to heat a mash!

FWIW, my inlet is down and outlet is up. I've got stuck mash in the past and it did not burn up the element or drain dry. My tube is now actually about 6" above my Mash tun and 2 feet above my pump ( I rearranged the rig). I don't know the science behind it (partial vacuum, etc.) but my tube didn't run dry any.

Now that I just BIAB, I run my pump WFO and never worry. RIMS seems to be able to do "steps" faster the faster the wort is pumped.

 

[p-nut]

I like to heat my strike water before I wake up so I want something that will have to be reset manually.

 

[kladue]

I am curious why everyone wants to use a PID controller for heating water in the HLT, generally if the process takes a significant amount of time to reach setpoint the integral windup makes auto tuning almost impossible. A simple temperature switch is better suited to those long ramp time applications, and PID controllers for fast changing RIMS heaters.

 

[Sawdustguy]

I am curious why everyone wants to use a PID controller for heating water in the HLT, generally if the process takes a significant amount of time to reach setpoint the integral windup makes auto tuning almost impossible. A simple temperature switch is better suited to those long ramp time applications, and PID controllers for fast changing RIMS heaters.

You got me Kevin. When I first started this thread I intended it to just be a way to regulate your mash temperatures fairly inexpensively, but everyone wants the Hex to heat strike water, step mash etc. Nothing wrong with that but I never invisioned it heading in that direction.

 

[saq]

I just got my march pump and did the toolbox build. Gonna order the heater and pipe equipment etc next week. What would an alternative temperature switch setup look like?

 

[ScubaSteve]

I'm guessing a ranco temp controller or something similar?

 

[The Pol]

I will be monitoring my MLT OUTlet temp, RIMS OUTlet temp (latched to the Low Alarm on my PID as well), and my BK temp at the BK pump INlet.

I will use PIDs for all three... why? Because a PID is needed on the RIMS, a )PID is useful on the BK and a PID is CHEAP to monitor the temp with a thermocouple on the MLT OUTlet ($35)

 

[CodeRage]

I will be monitoring my MLT OUTlet temp, RIMS OUTlet temp (latched to the Low Alarm on my PID as well), and my BK temp at the BK pump INlet.

I will use PIDs for all three... why? Because a PID is needed on the RIMS, a )PID is useful on the BK and a PID is CHEAP to monitor the temp with a thermocouple on the MLT OUTlet ($35)

Hope you're not planning on using the chinese cheapo ebay PIDs (except for the temp read out). I was so disappointed with those damned things.

Saq and ScubaSteve, Auber's universal PID controllers have an off/on control mode like Kladue was suggesting.

 

[The Pol]

Hope you're not planning on using the chinese cheapo ebay PIDs (except for the temp read out). I was so disappointed with those damned things.

Saq and ScubaSteve, Auber's universal PID controllers have an off/on control mode like Kladue was suggesting.

I am using Auber, which I know people hate, but I have had no issues with thier PIDs, SSRs or the like.

I am sure my build will burn up on the first try, but it is worth a shot.

 

[Sawdustguy]

I will be monitoring my MLT OUTlet temp, RIMS OUTlet temp (latched to the Low Alarm on my PID as well), and my BK temp at the BK pump INlet.

I will use PIDs for all three... why? Because a PID is needed on the RIMS, a )PID is useful on the BK and a PID is CHEAP to monitor the temp with a thermocouple on the MLT OUTlet ($35)

What prompted you to do a RIMS this time?

 

[The Pol]

What prompted you to do a RIMS this time?

Something different. Plus I can heat my strike water with it fast.

Additionally, there are certain limitations to my design that would not really allow for anything else.

 

[CodeRage]

I am using Auber, which I know people hate, but I have had no issues with thier PIDs, SSRs or the like.

I am sure my build will burn up on the first try, but it is worth a shot.

Really? I didn't know that there was such a consensus with them. I have bought loads of stuff through them and have been very happy with them.

FYI, just a bit of nomenclature correction. The low level alarm contact is not a latch, it would be considered a lockout. Confused me when I read it

I said the same thing the first time I fired mine up too, still going strong.

 

[The Pol]

I have read plenty of dissenting opinions on Auber being cheaply constructed, poorly made. They are $35-$45, but I have always had good luck with them.

Will the Low Alarm then just override the PID functionality until the temp. drops below the Alarm set point? Or will this require user intervention to begin autotuning again?

Yooper got all my manuals when I sold her the HERMS

 

[ScubaSteve]

Pol-I can't help but wonder why you're not going with a BCS-460...Once you get past 2-3 PID's you might as well go with an embedded controller...not to mention the internet functionality it offers!

 

[The Pol]

Pol-I can't help but wonder why you're not going with a BCS-460...Once you get past 2-3 PID's you might as well go with an embedded controller...not to mention the internet functionality it offers!

How much is the BCS?

3 PIDs is $125

I could lose my job any day with terrorists being allowed to fly US airlines

 

[Sawdustguy]

How much is the BCS?

3 PIDs is $125

I could lose my job any day with terrorists being allowed to fly US airlines

More than the three PID's. It is about $187. The BCS460 is a good solution if you want to do automation like opening and closing valves but used simply for the PID functions, I feel is not cost justifiable.

 

[The Pol]

More than the three PID's. It is about $187. The BCS460 is a good solution if you want to do automation like opening and closing valves but used simply for the PID functions, I feel is not cost justifiable.

Good to know. One PID isnt going to DO anything, but it was a cost effective solition for thermocouple temp. readout of the MLT outlet. $35 is pretty cheap for an accurate panel mount thermometer.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Good to know. One PID isnt going to DO anything, but it was a cost effective solition for thermocouple temp. readout of the MLT outlet. $35 is pretty cheap for an accurate panel mount thermometer.

Sure, but you're creating the "Creme de la Creme" of rigs, right? The BCS can be used for quite a bit of stuff, including fermentation. You could go with the brewtroller, which would offer you similar functionality for around $85. It is capable of PID functionality IIRC.

 

[The Pol]

Sure, but you're creating the "Creme de la Creme" of rigs, right? The BCS can be used for quite a bit of stuff, including fermentation. You could go with the brewtroller, which would offer you similar functionality for around $85. It is capable of PID functionality IIRC.

I am producing MY dream rig... individual opinions may vary. (which is the main reason for not doing a real "build thread" this time)

I dunno that BCS or Brewtroller would give me anything extra, and honestly I have no knowlege of how either interface with a laptop and the SSRs.