Reverse Circulation / Braumeister

[Owly055]

I was looking at the Braumeister videos, and found the concept of reverse circulation interesting. It looks like it would prevent the grain bed from sticking, but it also looks like when you shut the circulation off, and lift the basket, the reverse flow would free up all the chaff and junk that had been filtered by the grain bed, and that would flow out the bottom.
Can anybody enlighten me on why this doesn't happen?

H.W.

 

[Weezy]

Filters are used at top and bottom, akin to a BIAB bag. With any such filter, be it Braumeister or BIAB, stuck grain beds are a nonissue. Large debris to clog pumps is a nonissue.

 

[Owly055]

Wheezy:
The real (important to me) question was about reversing the flow when you lift the grain basket to let it drain. Ever blow an air filter out and note all the dust that comes out? You aren't running that much flow just letting it drip, but you are still reversing the flow, and that's going to loosen things.

H.W.

 

[Weezy]

Understood. Why are you worried about the grains? there are filters top and bottom. Its like tea in a tea bag. What do think is going to happen if you stir up the grains? Its not going to change oh, its not going to extract tannins, its not going to be appreciably cloudy (and any fine particulate that does get through is just going to precipitate out in your carboy in 10 minutes).

The reverse flow is genius. Continuously agitating the grain is going to speed up extraction and increase mash efficiency. The downside is that there is a minimum volume of water necessary to mash with the system. Its not especially forgiving on batch size.

 

[Owly055]

What I really like about the concept is the fact that the water flow is holding the grain in suspension against the top filter, and depending on flow, it should stay fairly uncompacted. I've been doodling a design that would use the same principle and be a self contained grain basket / circulation pump / heating system where the pump and heating element to maintain temp would be beneath the grain basket immersed in liquid. The motor for the pump might sit above the works with a shaft running down the middle of the grain basket through a tube. The motor would just rest in place with a really simple drive coupler along the same lines as an automotive oil pump drive shaft. The whole works would simply rest on top of your boil kettle, and draw the water / wort up, circulating it up through the grain basket / grain tube. where it would spill over the top and back down into the pot just like the braumeister. Everything would be self contained in one unit, and would work on any pot. Depth would be the variable. It might rest on it's own feet, or rest on rods like a hop spider on the edge of the pot. Your actual grain basket / tube would be above fluid level...... You wouldn't have to lift it or remove it until it had drained completely......... You would unplug the power and control box connectors, and lift the motor off, and start heating for your boil while the unit was draining. It would drain right down through the pump.... What was in the pump and the line going to the bottom of the grain basket / tube would drain quickly as you finally lifted the unit out.

H.W.

Understood. Why are you worried about the grains? there are filters top and bottom. Its like tea in a tea bag. What do think is going to happen if you stir up the grains? Its not going to change oh, its not going to extract tannins, its not going to be appreciably cloudy (and any fine particulate that does get through is just going to precipitate out in your carboy in 10 minutes).

The reverse flow is genius. Continuously agitating the grain is going to speed up extraction and increase mash efficiency. The downside is that there is a minimum volume of water necessary to mash with the system. Its not especially forgiving on batch size.

 

[Weezy]

A pump on top sounds problematic. How do you prime the pump? its a lot of hassle to build something with the reverse flow design. I'm not sure its worth the effort, imho. A traditional, top to bottom, continuous recirc rig using rims or herms ids 95% the way there and headache free build. Not too discourage, and I don't know your fab abilities, but id think long and hard before I bought parts.


Have you seen this build?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/braumiser-my-braumeister-inspired-rig-299192/

 

[crane]

A pump on top sounds problematic. How do you prime the pump? its a lot of hassle to build something with the reverse flow design. I'm not sure its worth the effort, imho. A traditional, top to bottom, continuous recirc rig using rims or herms ids 95% the way there and headache free build. Not too discourage, and I don't know your fab abilities, but id think long and hard before I bought parts.





Have you seen this build?



https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/braumiser-my-braumeister-inspired-rig-299192/

+1

From looking at the OP's other posts on HBT it sounds like he's rather new to all grain. Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel I would follow some more commonly used techniques just to get the hang of things. There is a reason why most people follow the same basic setup when it comes to recirculating MASH. The reason is KISS. If you are having problems with a particular technique I suggest fixing those problems before you abandon it for something completely new. There are thousands of people using these more traditional techniques everyday without such problems.

 

[Owly055]

I am new to AG............. and was not particularly happy with the BIAB experience I used.... a cooler mash tun is next on my list.......... keeping it simple for now. That doesn't mean that I simply switch the thinking cap off.

Note that I wrote that I was "doodling a design"................not preparing to build something or implying that I had come up with the ultimate brewing system. I'm an obsessive designer...... I can't do anything without looking for novel and different approaches............It's a long stretch between doodling and cutting metal. A bit of pencil lead on a sheet of paper is a far cry from actually building anything.

The appeal to me in this is that it would give me the temperature control I had so much trouble with doing the BIAB, and give a pretty good efficiency, and still be a single pot system.

H.W.

+1

From looking at the OP's other posts on HBT it sounds like he's rather new to all grain. Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel I would follow some more commonly used techniques just to get the hang of things. There is a reason why most people follow the same basic setup when it comes to recirculating MASH. The reason is KISS. If you are having problems with a particular technique I suggest fixing those problems before you abandon it for something completely new. There are thousands of people using these more traditional techniques everyday without such problems.

 

[Owly055]

Wheezy:
I thought I made it pretty clear that the motor was sitting on top like an ice cream maker, and the pump on the bottom driven by a shaft.........

My thought process is driven by frustration with temp control using the BIAB system. A "Coleman Mash Tun" is on my grocery list to address this problem. I can preheat the mash tun, which should solve my problems.

The design I was proposing is actually pretty simple with very few components. Basically the grain tube has a bottom in it below the filter and screen. There's a hole in the center of this bottom, and your pump impeller sits right above this hole so it draws the liquid through the hole into the space between the bottom and the screen so that it rises up through the basket...... It's not a conventional pump designed to work in a housing with lines connected to it, but more like an automotive water pump. The idea is to eliminate plumbing entirely and incorporate all the working parts in the grain basket assembly. It's pretty far outside the usual "box"..... and it's actually very simple. As I mentioned above, the center of the grain basket has a tube running vertically through it instead a solid shaft, and that tube contains the drive shaft for the pump, with the motor sitting on top like an ice cream maker.

I did see your Braumeister clone and was very impressed with it! It represents a lot of fabrication and a lot of money and time. Something most folks couldn't even begin to build.

H.W.

A pump on top sounds problematic. How do you prime the pump? its a lot of hassle to build something with the reverse flow design. I'm not sure its worth the effort, imho. A traditional, top to bottom, continuous recirc rig using rims or herms ids 95% the way there and headache free build. Not too discourage, and I don't know your fab abilities, but id think long and hard before I bought parts.


Have you seen this build?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/braumiser-my-braumeister-inspired-rig-299192/

 

[Weezy]

Well, I hope your design works out well.

I think your original question was answered. Why doesn't all the "chaff and junk" flow out the bottom of the braumeister barrel when you remove it? there is a filter screen in the bottom.

 

[craigmw]

I was looking at the Braumeister videos, and found the concept of reverse circulation interesting. It looks like it would prevent the grain bed from sticking, but it also looks like when you shut the circulation off, and lift the basket, the reverse flow would free up all the chaff and junk that had been filtered by the grain bed, and that would flow out the bottom.
Can anybody enlighten me on why this doesn't happen?

H.W.

Perhaps another advantage of the Braumeister approach is that pumping through the wort as opposed to pulling the wort makes sense from the pump standpoint. Centrifugal pumps are better at pushing liquids than pulling them (as with a swimming pool pump), so there can be more efficient wort flow. It is near impossible to get a stuck mash with this approach.

 

[Owly055]

Perhaps another advantage of the Braumeister approach is that pumping through the wort as opposed to pulling the wort makes sense from the pump standpoint. Centrifugal pumps are better at pushing liquids than pulling them (as with a swimming pool pump), so there can be more efficient wort flow. It is near impossible to get a stuck mash with this approach.

Excellent point......... I think the big advantages would be that the grain bed is always in suspension like sand particles in quicksand..... You shouldn't get a stuck grain bed, and you should get washouts where the wort simply bypasses the grain....... provided your flow is nice and slow. It's a neat system, but like BIAB, all your strike water is in the mash (normally), and there is no sparge unless you hold water back.
I persist in envisioning a system that uses a single vessel for everything including fermentation. Your mash, and boil take place in your cone bottom fermenter...... You lift the grain tube / basket and heating element and wort chiller out, pitch the yeast and go..........

I'm obsessive about trying to figure out different ways to doing things........ I can only spend so much time actually doing things...... when I'm not, I'm doodling, and dreaming up new ideas. Sometimes it pays off..... sometimes it does not. In an upcoming project involving heavy welding, I was able to devise a system that will reduce materials cost and labor cost by several thousand dollars.... the labor is mine....... so I lose there, but I can charge more per hour......... because of what I've put into it before I've even started, recoup much of my labor, and still save the customer a lot of money. He'll call me next time instead of somebody else........... It's a long term investment....."work smart"......... the engineering is worth a lot in and of itself.

H.W.