Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

[wcarter1227]

i have not had good results with 4766, besides it drying out the cider it is next to impossible to stop. I crashed a cider with 4766 twice and when i thought it was stable at 1.10 for 2 weeks, i bottled it. Bottles lasted about 1 month and then started bursting. I took the gravity reading of one at 1 month and it was down to 1.00.

It also leaves the cider tasting like plain old rocket fuel and requires quite a long time to age. My first batch of 4766 i made over a year ago and is just starting to become drinkable. tastes more like a white wine with a splash of apple.

Im not a huge fan of apfelwein as it is also too dry IMHO, however my 4766 cider makes apfelwein look like a bottle of fine wine

 

[phishie]

i have not had good results with 4766, besides it drying out the cider it is next to impossible to stop. I crashed a cider with 4766 twice and when i thought it was stable at 1.10 for 2 weeks, i bottled it. Bottles lasted about 1 month and then started bursting. I took the gravity reading of one at 1 month and it was down to 1.00.

It also leaves the cider tasting like plain old rocket fuel and requires quite a long time to age. My first batch of 4766 i made over a year ago and is just starting to become drinkable. tastes more like a white wine with a splash of apple.

Im not a huge fan of apfelwein as it is also too dry IMHO, however my 4766 cider makes apfelwein look like a bottle of fine wine

Good to know, if I hadn't been clueless when I bought it I certainly wouldn't have. It'll be a fun 5 gallons to experiment with but that's about it. Glad I was able to pick up the Wy3333 tonight and rack/crash the current brew after only 7 days of primary fermentation. Better set that fridge extra cold, pasteurization is going to be a must.

 

[CvilleKevin]

wcarter - did the 4766 taste OK at 1.010? Being impossible to stop could be useful for someone who is bottle pasteurizing and doesnt want the crash to stop the yeast

phishie - The Wy3333 makes a tasty cider but I strongly recommend not trying to use nitrogen reduction to bottle carb this next batch. Its not a reliable process and I would not recommend even experimenting with it to anyone who has not already had some experience and success with cold crashing.

It is important that first you verify that you can successfully crash the juice and stop it completely, so that it does not restart later. You may want to start with just a gallon for this. Or maybe crash just a gallon and pasteurize the rest.

After you crash the Wy3333, keep an eye on it. If your juice is like mine you will see a tiny bit of airlock activity for a few days, but only a few days. If it goes for much longer then it may not every be safe to put in a bottle without pasteurizaton. Otherwise, you want to note how long it takes to go flat and stay flat

You also might want to do some experimenting with gallon batches using some other yeasts. I suspect other wheat yeasts like 3068, 3056, 3638, WLP300, WLP380 have similar properties depending on the juice so one of these may work better with a given juice source. Also dont do this unless you are prepared to deal with burst bottles.

 

[phishie]

Experiment I will! I want to grab 10-12 single gallons this weekend for some extensive testing. I really like the flexibilty of brewing in the 1 gal jugs so any advice on that practice is greatly appreciated. Hopefully I can convince the orchard to sell me some empties as well. Do you reuse these at all?

I think I'll try out 3-4 different yeasts and attempt a couple wild yeasts with this round. Probably try US05, Wy3333, Wy3068, and S05 depending on what LHBS has in stock. Overzealous me bought two packets of Wy4766 a couple weeks ago so I have one of those left over. I think I'll let that ferment out to 1.000 with a gallon or two and then age in the bottle for a year or more to see how it turns out in the long run. I believe I'm partial to sweet/semi sweet ciders but I haven't tasted that many ciders so I'm still up in the air.

At the very least it'll be great practice for taking SG readings.

Edit: In the realm of the "perfect yeasts" topic, I'd like to use yeasts that produce drinkable ciders as quickly as possible. The use of k-meta and sorbate probably have a larger affect on this than yeast choice but wanted to throw that out there.

 

[phishie]

From the pictures I really like the clear flip-top bottles you use, it's cool to see the various cider colors side by side. I'm sure you don't store them in the sunlight but just out of curiousity, does sunlight affect cider like it does beer? In which case, brown bottles would protect the cider a bit better?

Will be picking up some new bottles soon, hence the interest.

 

[CvilleKevin]

I really like the flexibilty of brewing in the 1 gal jugs so any advice on that practice is greatly appreciated. Hopefully I can convince the orchard to sell me some empties as well. Do you reuse these at all?

Yep, brewing in the 1gal jugs is handy. I usually get a couple extra empty jugs from the press and use them when I crash. When I crash gallons, I rack into the empty jugs, then chill for a few days, then rack back out into bottles. If I'm crashing more than two gallons at a time (which is most of the time) I'll clean the trub out of the ones I just racked, sanitize them and reuse them to crash the next two batches. But I'll just reuse them once like this. After all the ciders are bottled, I toss all the jugs in the recycling. Gallon jugs ferment faster than carboys so you need to keep an eye on them, but they are easier to crash. If you do a lot of these, its handy to have a small auto syphon. Also the bottle filling tip is handy for the 2nd rack into bottles.

does sunlight affect cider like it does beer? In which case, brown bottles would protect the cider a bit better?

Probably. I cover my bottle racks with a tapestry to keep the sunlight off them. Brown bottles would likely work better, but the clear ones look really cool, so I suppose this is a matter of style over substance.

You should probably start with a case of PET bottles while you determine which yeasts work best. Before I started using bottles several years ago, I did a whole season of using just empty gatorade bottles. That way you cut down on risks while working the process out.

I'd like to use yeasts that produce drinkable ciders as quickly as possible

That would be the ale and wheat yeasts. Lager yeasts should also work well if you use Papper's pasteurization method, as they are difficult to stop with cold crashing. I'm really liking the Brewpak Ale. It may replace S04 as my favorite all around yeast. IMHO its worth a few bucks to have it mailed from the UK

 

[phishie]

That would be the ale and wheat yeasts. Lager yeasts should also work well if you use Papper's pasteurization method, as they are difficult to stop with cold crashing. I'm really liking the Brewpak Ale. It may replace S04 as my favorite all around yeast. IMHO its worth a few bucks to have it mailed from the UK

Ah nice, hadn't come across any mention of Brupak yeast yet. All I can find on google is the Brupak brewing packs, no pun intended. Linkage for buying from the UK? Which Brupak Ale yeast you've been using?

I found this list of Brupak Ale Yeasts on their site:
#1007 German
#1028 London
#1056 American
#1084 Irish
#1098 British
#1214 Belgian Abbey
#1275 Thames Valley
#1318 London III
#1335 British II
#1388 Belgian Strong Ale
#1728 Scottish
#1968 Special London
#2565 Kölsch
#3056 Bavarian Wheat
#3068 Weihenstephan Wheat
#3787 Belgian Trappist
#3944 Belgian White Beer

 

[CvilleKevin]

Those ones you listed are Wyeast. Here's the link to the UK place where I've been buying the Brupak ale

http://www.hopandgrape.co.uk/catalog/detailV2_8.asp?itemid=BRU20226716&catid=DRI2123070

 

[notjustgc]

I havent tried WLP775, but its on my list to check out, along with WYeast #1010

I've got a WLP775 batch bubbling away right now. Did you ever get a chance to try it? If you did, any observations?

This 5-gallon batch started at 1.075 (cider at 1.060 sweetened with 15 points of cane/dextrose blend). I'm planning to bottle at 1.025 and pasteurize once it's carbed to keep it fairly sweet for SWMBO. This is my first batch of cider, so... does that sound like a decent plan?

 

[CvilleKevin]

I've got a WLP775 batch bubbling away right now. Did you ever get a chance to try it? If you did, any observations?

I still havent tried WLP775, but I've seen a lot of positive posts on it. If you use the forum search you can find posts on this and a lot of the others that are mentioned here.

I'm planning to bottle at 1.025 and pasteurize once it's carbed to keep it fairly sweet for SWMBO

Sounds like a good plan. Thats fairly sweet, when you taste it at 1.025 you might want to let it go a little longer, but you can make the call then. Once it starts getting close it would probably be a good idea to re-read the sticky on bottle pasteurization and make sure you have everything you need on hand. you may also want to search the forum for "bottle pasteurization" to find other tips on this.

 

[phishie]

Pulled a sample of the Wy4766 batch after cold crashing for 24 hours (only at about 40 degrees, crappy fridge). SG is @ 1.0138 now. Seems pretty crazy for it to drop 0.0039 in 24 hours when it's in the fridge. Guess that speaks to how hard it is to stop Wy4766.

Interestingly the carbonation is pretty evident already.

 

[wcarter1227]

wcarter - did the 4766 taste OK at 1.010? Being impossible to stop could be useful for someone who is bottle pasteurizing and doesnt want the crash to stop the yeast

phishie - The Wy3333 makes a tasty cider but I strongly recommend not trying to use nitrogen reduction to bottle carb this next batch. Its not a reliable process and I would not recommend even experimenting with it to anyone who has not already had some experience and success with cold crashing.

It is important that first you verify that you can successfully crash the juice and stop it completely, so that it does not restart later. You may want to start with just a gallon for this. Or maybe crash just a gallon and pasteurize the rest.

After you crash the Wy3333, keep an eye on it. If your juice is like mine you will see a tiny bit of airlock activity for a few days, but only a few days. If it goes for much longer then it may not every be safe to put in a bottle without pasteurizaton. Otherwise, you want to note how long it takes to go flat and stay flat

You also might want to do some experimenting with gallon batches using some other yeasts. I suspect other wheat yeasts like 3068, 3056, 3638, WLP300, WLP380 have similar properties depending on the juice so one of these may work better with a given juice source. Also dont do this unless you are prepared to deal with burst bottles.

Kevin- Im honestly not a fan of 4766, Ive used it 2 times in cider and once in a graff. Even at 1.010 it tasted pretty bland, all the apple flavor was gone. Reminded me of a cheap sparkling white wine. I usually crash most of my ciders at around 1.005 to 1.010 and have had some very great results.

All in all I just think 4766 is not a great yeast, unless you plan to totally dry your cider out and age it for at least a year I would recommend staying away from this yeast.

 

[wcarter1227]

Pulled a sample of the Wy4766 batch after cold crashing for 24 hours (only at about 40 degrees, crappy fridge). SG is @ 1.0138 now. Seems pretty crazy for it to drop 0.0039 in 24 hours when it's in the fridge. Guess that speaks to how hard it is to stop Wy4766.

Interestingly the carbonation is pretty evident already.

Even if you crash it a few times, it really just slows it down. Like I mentioned before I was able to crash it twice and thought it was stable at 1.010 only to have bottle bombs after being in bottles for a month. Your best bet is to just let it rip through your cider and dry it out, backsweeten and then pasterize.

 

[phishie]

Even if you crash it a few times, it really just slows it down. Like I mentioned before I was able to crash it twice and thought it was stable at 1.010 only to have bottle bombs after being in bottles for a month. Your best bet is to just let it rip through your cider and dry it out, backsweeten and then pasterize.

Haha I'm considering it. I'm also beginning to think my taste for cider is pretty elementary because the cider tastes pretty good to me at this point.

 

[wcarter1227]

Haha I'm considering it. I'm also beginning to think my taste for cider is pretty elementary because the cider tastes pretty good to me at this point.

Keep experimenting, youll find a combo that you really like soon. My fav yeast for cider has been notty fermented on the cold side so i can control it and crash it easier.

I did a cider last year with Brett b, I let it sit for 3 months before I drank it. Developed some tropical fruit flavors with just a bit of barnyard funk. Was a very interesting cider.

Right now Im trying to culture yeast from the dregs of JK scrumpy. I wrote them and they confirmed that they have enough wild yeast and no longer are using champagne yeast. Hopefully I can get a decent amount of yeast and Im gonna try to use to do my next batch, may even try lagering it and see how the cold ferment will change the profile of the cider

 

[wcarter1227]

Pacman and bells yeast might make for some interesting cider as well

 

[shay1989]

I am new to making cider, (just got my first batch going 11 days ago), and I am a little confused and was wondering if someone could dumb it down and tell me what steps to take to get a good cider. I used pasturized cider and added about a pound of golden brown sugar to each of my two, one gallon batches. You talk about cold crashing and I dont want my cider too dry so should I do that now and then bottle? I was under the impression I wanted to let it sit in primary 2 or more weeks then rack it to secondry for another month or two. Could i actually just rack it and let it sit for a day and drink it uncarbinated? Someone please point a blind man in the right direction I am so lost!

 

[CvilleKevin]

I am a little confused and was wondering if someone could dumb it down and tell me what steps to take to get a good cider.

Well, there are about as many styles and ways to make cider as there are for beer and wine, so this depends a lot on what you are going for. A good place to start is to read the other two stickies and use the forum search function to find more info on any topic.

You talk about cold crashing and I dont want my cider too dry so should I do that now and then bottle?

Not if you are using glass bottles - cold crashing can be very effective for stopping a fermentation, but it requires the right yeast and juice and takes some practice. If you cold crash, I'd recommend using PET bottles for the first season until you have it down. Also, you want to taste it first. You used a ton of sugar in these batches, so depending on the yeast, it may still have a fair amount of residual sugar even after 11 days. If you want a good bottle conditioned sweet cider, follow the instructions in Pappers' sticky on bottle pasteurization.

I was under the impression I wanted to let it sit in primary 2 or more weeks then rack it to secondry for another month or two.

That is pretty much the conventional cider recipe, which will usually give you a dry cider that requires many months of aging to taste good.

Could i actually just rack it and let it sit for a day and drink it uncarbinated?

Yes, although it may continue to ferment unless you keep it cold.

 

[CvilleKevin]

Yes! New bottle crates arrived yesterday. Now I can finally get rid of the crappy cardboard cases

I'm planning to do some more experiments with bottle carbing using nutrient reduction. Having these crates will let me get a little more aggressive. Not that I'm trying to burst any bottles, but if I do, they will be a lot easier to deal with.

 

[bullinachinashop]

CvilleKevin,
I fermented my flash pasturized, non sulfited 1.060 cider down to 1.008. Racked and cold crashed for 24 hours. Then racked to a keg.
It appears to have settled at 1.004.
Tasting it, I seem to get a little sulfer odor. Is that normal and will it disapate?
Nottingham yeast @ 66 degrees and fermentation took about a week.
Thanks
Bull

 

[CvilleKevin]

the sulfur odor will dissipate on its own but you can accelerate the process by scrubbing the cider, - pressurize the keg at 25psi until fully carbed (a day in the fridge or 2-3 at room temp, then let the pressure all the way out. Continue to let the pressure out every 4-8 hours until the cider is flat again and not releasing any more CO2 after the last interval (it usually takes about 24 hours for the CO2 to completely release at room temp, might be a little more or less if cold). The CO2 releasing will scrub out the sulfur.

Usually one cycle of this is enough, but repeat if necessary.

 

[Klaatu]

I do not own a CO2 system. How long , guesstimate, that it will take to come clean on its own in the 5 gal bucket and/or in the bottle.

Thanks, Rick

 

[CvilleKevin]

How long , guesstimate, that it will take to come clean on its own in the 5 gal bucket and/or in the bottle

you dont need C02 to cold crash, just a fridge. Typical time to clearing can be from a couple days to 6 months depending on the type of apples, how the juice was processed before and after fermentation, type of yeast, whether clearing agents were added before or after. Try searching the forum for "cider clearing" to find some examples that match your situation.

 

[bullinachinashop]

the sulfur odor will dissipate on its own but you can accelerate the process by scrubbing the cider, - pressurize the keg at 25psi until fully carbed (a day in the fridge or 2-3 at room temp, then let the pressure all the way out. Continue to let the pressure out every 4-8 hours until the cider is flat again and not releasing any more CO2 after the last interval (it usually takes about 24 hours for the CO2 to completely release at room temp, might be a little more or less if cold). The CO2 releasing will scrub out the sulfur.

Usually one cycle of this is enough, but repeat if necessary.

Thanks for your help and all the great info on this thread.

Bull

 

[bmac8]

That is a fantastic photo and the information you take away from this calculated testing is invaluable. Keep up the good work!

 

[CvilleKevin]

I got another 48 gallons of juice yesterday. Its one of the best tasting mixes I've ever started with. 50 percent Stayman, 30 percent Pink Lady and 20 percent Albemarle Pippin. huge apple taste from the front to the finish. OG was 1.052 and pH was 3.9. The picture below was taken about six hours after the yeast pitch

In the right foreground are three ale yeast batches, Brupack, S04 and Gervin English. They each got 18oz of turbinado and 9oz of dextrose. The S04 started the fastest of these, its the one in the middle and has already got a pretty decent krausen starting by the time of the pic. The Gervin on the far right is lagging a bit.

On the bar, the fourth ale yeast - US05 is on the far left. followed by Wy3068 and Wy3056 wheat yeasts. These 3 also got the 18oz turbinado 9oz dextrose bump. The Wy3068 had the best start of the wheat yeasts

The two on the right side of the bar are Wy3638 and Wy3333 wheats. They each got 3lbs of orange blossom honey. In the pic you can kinda see that the honey has temporarily cleared the Wy3333 batch (2nd from end).

All the wheat yeasts have blow off tubes. The Wy3638 batch is already blowing a lot of foam, the others likely will follow in the next couple days.

The Wy3333 got off to a real slow start this time around. The pack was so slow to swell that I thought maybe I had a dud. I moved the pack to the warmest room in the house and drove to LHBS to get a new one just in case. The pack finally swelled but it took about 8 hours, while the others were bursting after 2-3 hours. This evening when I came home from work it looked like it was just starting to get going, but pretty weak compared to the others, so I pitched the 2nd pack. Its going pretty good now.

In the back row next to the fridge, you can see a carboy from the first pressing this season. it just cleared. This was a batch with Gala, Mac and Prima, S04 and wildflower honey. None of the batches with that juice blend cleared. I drank the other two cloudy and set this one on the shelf. It was muddy looking until about a week ago I noticed it suddenly went completely clear. Hopefully some of the rest of these will do this soon because I'm running out of space.

 

[McDiggitty]

So, this was my first time and I ready many threads, but I am still worried about bottling and overpressurization.
So here is what I did let me know what you think
Pressed on 10/20/2010, added 5x campden tabs (probably too many imo).
10/21/10 sg=1.051 added Wyeast 4766
10/21 fermented at 65 F
10/30/10 transfered to secondary and added 4.5 tsp Pectic Enzyme @60 F.
Waited for it to clear.
11/20/10 sg= 1.000 added 3/4c corn sugar and bottled.
I tasted it before bottling and adding the sugar and it was very tart, but still a distinct apple taste. I do think it has a slight yeast flavor that is a bit off-putting.
Will my bottles still explode, and what will aging do for the flavor. I usually make beer and so I just followed my typical bottling procedure, and have heard that I should let it mellow.

 

[Fletch78]

So, this was my first time and I ready many threads, but I am still worried about bottling and overpressurization.
So here is what I did let me know what you think
Pressed on 10/20/2010, added 5x campden tabs (probably too many imo).
10/21/10 sg=1.051 added Wyeast 4766
10/21 fermented at 65 F
10/30/10 transfered to secondary and added 4.5 tsp Pectic Enzyme @60 F.
Waited for it to clear.
11/20/10 sg= 1.000 added 3/4c corn sugar and bottled.
I tasted it before bottling and adding the sugar and it was very tart, but still a distinct apple taste. I do think it has a slight yeast flavor that is a bit off-putting.
Will my bottles still explode, and what will aging do for the flavor. I usually make beer and so I just followed my typical bottling procedure, and have heard that I should let it mellow.

According to Wyeast, that strain has a tolerance of 12% so it could ferment down to .985, theoretically. However, in my experience, I've never had bombs from bottling at 1.000. The fact you added too much cambden, and didn't feed the cider with malt or other nutrients, you are probably safe. If it makes you feel better, you could always sample it every few days (or weeks, if progress is very slow) until it's carbed up, then pasteurize.

Also, aging dry cider is pretty much mandatory. It definitely will clean up the harshness, just like beer, but even more dramatically in my opinion.

 

[McDiggitty]

Thanks Fletch. I had not even considered pasteurizing, but I will definitely look into it. I am used to making beer, but I guess that since I didnt boil the juice like I would with wort I did not sterilize it, duh. I am just familiarizing myself with this process. So, do you think that you could bottle ferment cider at a higher gravity to retain sweetness then pasteurize to kill the yeast and not end up with bombs, or should I just get a keg system?

 

[Slownewone]

First, just want to say thanks, as so many others have for starting this thread and keeping it going (2 years now!). The knowledge here is invaluable. This is my second year making cider and I've actually got some more questions to pose but will stick to just one for the moment if anybody would be so kind as to give me a recommendation. A buddy and I started a 5 gallon batch of cider over the weekend using some local heat pasteurized cider (hard to find unpasteurized this late in the season). No preservatives. Based on recommendations, we pitched 1/2 the recommended dose of k meta on 11/28 to kill of any wild yeasts (we don't know about the practices, sanitation, etc. at the press) and to hopefully help add some of the juice preserving properties CKev mentioned throughout the thread. We also made a starter using 16 oz. of the same starter and one packet US-05. Got the ferment going, released the pressure, and put in the fridge overnight. On 11/29 (24 hours after k meta), we added 2 lbs. honey (warmed to mix easier), and our yeast starter (also warmed to room temp to restimulate fermentation). Moved the 6.5 gallon ale pail to the basement to ferment at ~65 degrees. As of last night ~24 hours, no bubbling in the airlock so I moved the bucket back upstairs (~72 degrees) to stimulate quicker fermentation. Still no bubbling in the airlock this am and when I peeked in the bucket, there was minimal signs of fermentation (some small white piles of crusty on the top but no fizzing, etc. as I've seen in the past with wine yeast). Should I be concerned? I'm considering taking one of the following steps and would appreciate some advice:
1. Pitch the 2nd packet of US-05 yeast the way CKev does it: 1/3 of a packet at a time dry letting it sink in slowly before adding each third, stir it up and replace the lid.
2. Make a starter with the 2nd packet and pitch the starter once we’re getting some good activity.
3. Add yeast nutrient and energizer to see if we can get it going that way, either adding the full recommended dose of each for five gallons (I believe 5 t nutrient and 1 t energizer) or using staggered addition as recommended by AHA for mead (1 t nutrient and ½ t energizer each day for three days).
4. Just stir vigorously and see if adding some oxygen helps.

Regardless, I'll check the SG before I go ahead and if it looks like we're just not getting the visible signs, I may wait to do anything. Thanks again for the help, I'm worried about f***ing it up and don't want to make the wrong move!