Rehydrating dry yeast

[kl Roosevelt brewer]

You guys all have convinced me that when I finally build my batch of beer next week I am going to double sprinkle a double dose of us 05

 

[IslandLizard]

I feel that the brewer needs to be careful about some of these procedures [in-line responses]:
[...]
IMO some improvements should wait until the brewer has some experience. I agree with these points, but they should be done with adequate knowledge.

Really good points!
I wasn't going into procedural details, just listing areas of improvement, but those sure need to be addressed when implemented.

Many of those procedures do NOT need more experience, they're just a different way, doing it right the first time. Some are to replace kit instructions that are sheer wrong. A novice brewer who learns a method, isn't aware that it is wrong, and takes it as "word." Who in the world has ever heard "racked to secondary" (fermentor) unless you've brewed or made wine. Those bad habits become routine, they're considered "word," and are very difficult to let go of or unlearn for some reason. I can write more than a chapter on those.

 

[kl Roosevelt brewer]

Well when you think about it those big conical Brewing primaries I see online with the trub trap on the bottom if I understand it correctly that is a 1 vessel fermenter and they don't use a secondary. I don't have one of those but I will use the bucket and not use a secondary. Then you guys are going to have to teach me how to save and reuse my yeast

 

[IslandLizard]

Well when you think about it those big conical Brewing primaries I see online with the trub trap on the bottom if I understand it correctly that is a 1 vessel fermenter and they don't use a secondary. I don't have one of those but I will use the bucket and not use a secondary. Then you guys are going to have to teach me how to save and reuse my yeast

The big breweries do dump the trub from the bottom of the conicals. After transferring the beer to a bright tank they save some of the yeast for their next batch(es), pitching from cone to cone.

Buckets are fine for us homebrewers, and they come with a built in handle.
When racking your beer to a bottling bucket or keg, leave the trubby layer on the bottom behind with a quart or so of beer. Swirl up, making sure all the yeast goes into suspension, including the sticky stuff on the bottom, and pour the lot into a large mason jar, I use a 1/2 gallon glass pickle jar. Divide up into smaller ones jars from there, and store in fridge.

 

[kl Roosevelt brewer]

Well I just ordered Palmer's how to brew book 4th edition figured it couldn't hurt to put off Brewing my first batch for a few days till I read the book. I decided to do that when I noticed that it is possible to overcook or undercook your beer and I need to understand what that's all about as well. So when it comes to transferring into my keg from my primary as you taught me already I'm obviously going to have to pull the lid off the bucket to get my racking cane down in there. I understand the function of the siphon hose being underneath the beer as it fills up The Keg to keep it from splashing and gaining extra oxygen. So I am assuming that the contact with oxygen with the lid off during the time it takes to transfer to keg is not a big deal? And now if I'm going to save my yeast cake that is going to give it a little more exposure to air which I am assuming that's no big deal either correct? And I also am assuming to put a lid and ring on the mason jars full of yeast and putting them in the fridge they shouldn't explode because they are cooled down correct? I have so many questions that's why I figured I better buy that book

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Well I just ordered Palmer's how to brew book 4th edition figured it couldn't hurt to put off Brewing my first batch for a few days till I read the book.

+1 for being willing to pay for well curated resources.

What's interesting about HtB, 4e is that chapter one provides enough information to have a good 1st brew day. While you're waiting for the batch to ferment, you can continue reading the book. As a "stand alone" book, it will give you a good base of knowledge. With experience, you'll be able to blend in ideas from other well curated resources to may your brewing process "your own".

 

[kl Roosevelt brewer]

I did the same thing when I started making Mead I bought the book titled the compleat meadmaker and they gave some pretty basic information but where I really started to shine in making Mead is when I got on these forums and found some real professionals with some updated protocols it gave me a more complete understanding. I never drink Mead in my life and did not know really what to expect so to me Gathering all the information I could was important. I got a wild idea of making Maple wine out of pure maple syrup but there is no information out there to speak of when it comes to finding somebody who has done it before. I have been using my Mead protocols and I have to say I have a wonderful batch going already almost 3 weeks old. I even built a test batch using Frozen concentrated orange juice and maple syrup. I haven't tried that yet but it is clearing really nice and I think I'll get my first taste here today as I rack it into my secondary. So all the help I can get from you homebrewers here is much appreciated

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I haven't brewed any extract beer recipes except for only one years and years ago. I pretty much have been a Mead and cider maker and trying something new with Maple wine using just pure maple syrup and that seems to be going okay. But today I ordered the dead ringer IPA malt extract kit with specialty grains from Northern Brewer and it comes with the dry yeast us 05. Can anybody give me pointers on how to use this yeast? Do I hydrated the same way I do with Mead using Go Firm? What is the protocol

In short - follow the instructions, kh54s10 gave the current link here, which is neutral, either rehydrate or sprinkle. Since you're new to this, KISS and sprinkle - the fewer steps you take on the cold side, the less risk of infection. And we're all lazy, right?

If you go to the Fermentis website and download the spec sheet it has rehydration instructions there, and no mention of just sprinkling on the wort.

https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/SafAle-US-05.pdf

You just can't read, it explicity says "Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation vessel" - it doesn't prefer one over the other.

Here are the rehydration instructions from Fermentis (Nov 2016 Tech Data Sheet)...An undated bulletin I downloaded in 2013 has the exact same language...

Did they mean to say 30 seconds instead of 30 minutes and forgot the rest? Lost in translation?

You can regard as obsolete any Fermentis instructions from before the introduction of Easy 2 Use in October 2017. And no, they didn't mean 30 seconds - they're thinking in terms of a stir plate.

By pitching 2 packs, you're compensating for killing off half of each. That's why you don't see a difference.
Making starters with dry yeast is trickier since the inoculation rate is much too high in a typical 2 liter starter. Use a larger starter or pitch less dry yeast. Again, proper rehydration gives you twice the viable cells from the start compared to just sprinkling.

This is a fact....

The "rehydrators" forget the dead sprinkled cells provide a massive dose of nutrients allowing the surviving cells to complete a healthy fermentation.

Has anyone seen a study on cell counts making a starter with dry yeast? If it is true that you kill off half of the cells pitching in wort. Then you are really starting with half a pack then building back up. You might end up with the same cell counts after doing the starter that the pack held in the first place!

Here's the thing, that 50% figure for sprinkling versus rehydration gets quoted widely, and it's true that was the figure from a number of studies 10+ years ago. It's also worth noting that methylene blue is not terribly reliable for this kind of test. But even that Sean Terrill study from 7 years ago mentioned above saw that differential creeping up to 56% for US-05 (43% in wort versus 77% in water), he saw 67% difference in a later experiment with 1.078 wort, and last year @Duffman870727 found that Nottingham had essentially the same viability (96% versus 97%) whether it was rehydrated in wort or warm water. Now that's just one data point, so proves nothing, but it does hint at the kind of process improvements that have led Fermentis to introduce their Easy 2 Use branding. Just as a reminder, the claim for E2U (scroll down a bit) is :

Till now, in the beer world, you had to take great care of yeasts prior pitching. You had to rehydrate and acclimatise them while watching water and must temperature carefully.

With E2U™, you will save time, contribute to sustainability and gain comfort. Offer yourself an E2U™ active dry yeast. It has an extended shelf life. You can pitch it directly. You keep the same quality of viability, fermentation abilities and organoleptic profiles.

That applies to all their beer yeasts except for HA-18 and F-2 (which are almost certainly wine yeasts).

The other thing to consider is that manufacturers are very conservative with the pack sizes - typically they quote >6 million viable per gram, but over 20 million is pretty normal and Terrill found almost 23 million per gram. It's interesting that one exception is Lallemand New England which obviously doesn't like being dried, they quote >1 million/g for the commercial pack and have yet to release it in retail form.

Just don't assume that you are killing 50% of your yeast by sprinkling direct.

Is there a list of specific problems (off flavors, ...) that I should be looking for if I continue to not rehydrate dry yeast?

The risk is not about rehydration per se, but the possible problems caused by its effects (or not) on cell count. Underpitching tends to increase all kinds of off-flavours, particularly fusels - but at the same time that may be desirable for the particular style of beer. So people tend to underpitch NEIPAs and British styles a bit whereas you want to be generous with your yeast for lagers.

At the same time, the other side of the coin is how much growth you get after pitching - one more generation of growth means you can recover from hypothetically killing half your yeast earlier. Typically you expect 3-4 doublings after pitching, and this growth is limited by nutrient availability. One key limiting factor is lipid reserves in the original yeast which allow the daughters to make cell membranes - yeast without those reserves need oxygen in order to make them.

Dry yeast typically have 5% lipids, enough for 3 generations after pitching so that you don't have to worry too much about aeration after pitching dry yeast. But if you make a starter from your dry yeast you're using up a lot of the food reserves that the manufacturer has carefully put into the yeast, so you need to be much more careful about keeping them happy in the fermenter, with aeration and potentially other nutrients.

I'd emphasise though that beginners don't need to worry about this stuff - just splash your wort into the fermenter and/or give it a good shake if it's not too heavy, and then sprinkle dry yeast and you'll make good beer.

I read somewhere lately that dry Pilsner/Lager yeasts aren't quite Pilsner/Lager yeasts... Something to do with them no being able to survive the drying or rehydration process, IIRC.

I think you're getting confused somewhere. Sure, the boundaries between "ale yeast" and "lager yeast" look increasingly fluid once you get down into the DNA, with the likes of WLP800 Pilsner being an ale yeast that has traditionally been used for lager and WLP051 California V a lager yeast that has traditionally been used to make ale. And that's before you get onto kolsches and Cali Commons.

But you can dry "proper" lager yeast of which 34/70 is the most notable example, the most common lager yeast in the world and archetype of the Frohberg group of lager yeasts.

 

[kl Roosevelt brewer]

I just love all you guys it's amazing how much stuff you know

 

[kl Roosevelt brewer]

Am I supposed to skim off the hot break at the beginning of my boil or let it fall back in

 

[brewbama]

Am I supposed to skim off the hot break at the beginning of my boil or let it fall back in

I skim. Others don’t.

 

[ancientmariner52]

Am I supposed to skim off the hot break at the beginning of my boil or let it fall back in

Definitely leave it. As to trying to remove it at the end of the boil, well, here we go again with many different methods and opinions. Personally, I remove as much as I can with a large kitchen strainer (scoop, dump, repeat), then 'whirlpool' with a big spoon to get everything spinning. Wait (patiently, if you can) about thirty minutes, and the remaining solids will mostly be in a pile in the center of the kettle. From here it depends a lot on your equipment. I pump my wort from a manifold around the bottom of the kettle, through a counterflow chiller and into a fermenter, cooled and ready for yeast. I don't know what you'll be doing, but whatever you do, be careful of hot wort! Don't pour hot liquid into glass or plastic.

 

[kl Roosevelt brewer]

I am working with very basic beginner equipment for my first batch. I am going to use a fermenter bucket as my primary and I'm not going to go to secondary fermenter. What would happen if I took my boiling Wort at the end of the boil and poured it through a sterilized sanitized stainless steel kitchen strainer into my sanitize fermenter bucket then clean out my brew pot 5 gallon stainless steel and pour the Wort back from my primary bucket back into my stainless and then cool it down in the sink in a cold water bath ice thing

 

[ancientmariner52]

Maybe off topic but I can't let it go. Watch out for boil over! It happens in the blink of an eye! Drop the fire immediately, and have a spray bottle of water handy to knock back the foam. Slooowly bring the heat back up until you get a nice controlled boil. Maybe you already know this, but I'd feel really bad if if I didn't say it again and something went wrong.

 

[kl Roosevelt brewer]

My kit has three hop additions. One with 60 Minutes of boil remaining and 1 with 0 minutes of boil remaining and then a dry hop addition. When it comes to my second hop Edition which is at flameout I want to whirlpool the 30 minutes and then cool. So after my 30 minutes is up that's when I plan on pouring my hole wart through the strainer and then into the ice bath. Am I out of line or should I not even worry about trying to strain it

 

[ancientmariner52]

I am working with very basic beginner equipment for my first batch. I am going to use a fermenter bucket as my primary and I'm not going to go to secondary fermenter. What would happen if I took my boiling Wort at the end of the boil and poured it through a sterilized sanitized stainless steel kitchen strainer into my sanitize fermenter bucket then clean out my brew pot 5 gallon stainless steel and pour the Wort back from my primary bucket back into my stainless and then cool it down in the sink in a cold water bath ice thing

That will work fine. Contamination isn't really an issue until you get below about 140°F, so don't be in too big a hurry to handle 5 gallons of boiling liquid. Let it cool naturally, a couple of hours won't hurt a thing. Once it's safe to handle, chill and get it in the fermenter and yeast pitched as soon as you can. If given a fair start, yeast can defend it's territory pretty well. Until then, cool wort is a perfect growth medium for all kinds of nasty stuff.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

kl Roosevelt brewer has started a separate thread on the subject of skimming hotbreak, I suggest further discussion of that topic happens over there.

Boilovers just don't happen if you use a product containing simet(h)icone - either one sold for brewing such as Fermcap S or sold as an over-the-counter treatment for excess wind.

 

[kl Roosevelt brewer]

At least this way if I strain it I picture in my mind that I am eliminating a lot of the hop material from the pellets

 

[ncbrewer]

What would happen if I took my boiling Wort at the end of the boil and poured it through a sterilized sanitized stainless steel kitchen strainer into my sanitize fermenter bucket then clean out my brew pot 5 gallon stainless steel and pour the Wort back from my primary bucket back into my stainless and then cool it down in the sink in a cold water bath ice thing

If you strain the wort while it's still boiling hot, you won't remove the cold break - that happens during cooling.

Also, lots of brewers don't strain the wort at all, and others just try to minimize the amount. I dump it all in and don't seem to pick up any off flavors. For at least the first batch, I'd recommend not straining or siphoning with a whirlpool to keep it simple.

 

[IslandLizard]

You definitely should NOT pour hot wort through a strainer. Hot side aeration is bad.

 

[kl Roosevelt brewer]

I sure am glad I'm asking the right questions.

 

[stickyfinger]

kl Roosevelt brewer has started a separate thread on the subject of skimming hotbreak, I suggest further discussion of that topic happens over there.

Boilovers just don't happen if you use a product containing simet(h)icone - either one sold for brewing such as Fermcap S or sold as an over-the-counter treatment for excess wind.

this is generally true. i had a major exception a few months ago. i did a melvin 2x4 clone - 16G batch in my 20G kettle (which isn't usually a problem using anti-foam) and used 47 grams of hop extract to bitter. i literally had to watch the kettle for the full 60 minute boil as it was always in threat of boiling over! it was unbelievable!!

 

[kh54s10]

Use a hop spider or hop bag to contain the hops. Straining is a PITA. Or alternately just pour all but the very thickest sludge at the bottom of the pot into the fermenter. I lose only a few ounces when using a 5 gallon paint strainer bag clipped to the lip of my kettle for the hops.

 

[kl Roosevelt brewer]

I asked the guy at the lhbs if I needed a hop bag when I bought the kit and he said no because I'm using pellets

 

[kh54s10]

I have had both boil overs AND blow offs while using FermcapS. I don't use it any more. I just don't want that stuff in my beer.

 

[kl Roosevelt brewer]

I asked the guy at the lhbs if I needed a hop bag when I bought the kit and he said no because I'm using pellets

So for me it looks like on this first batch everything from the Brew Kettle is going into the fermentation bucket

 

[kh54s10]

I asked the guy at the lhbs if I needed a hop bag when I bought the kit and he said no because I'm using pellets

You really don't, but if you want to get a certain amount of beer you have to decide how much you are going to lose in the hop sludge and compensate. That will vary with how much hops are in the recipe.

A lot of people don't bag because they say they lose hop utilization. I have bagged my hops since batch 3 so I don't know. I get what I like using the bag.

 

[user 254557]

I would like to take you up on that offer, that is to have a kit that I purchase run through the HBT, I have been brewing the Northern brewer Kama Citra kit for years, I have found that very minor tweeks can give a different profile but still be good beer, I have a 10 gallon setup that I built and even had the fittings welded to my keggle by one of my buddies and made the control box myself, I use a two vessel recirculation system that I recirc for an about an hour and come in at about 1.042, once I get my volume, usually about 13 gallons(I do two kama citra kits at a time) I will run a nice rolling boil and chill with the CFC while whirlpooling then once I hit about 70 i run into two big mouth bubblers, pitch 1 1/2 packets of dry yeast into each fermenter, and then set on my bar with a sweatshirt on them to ferment, two weeks primary, two weeks secondary, after 10-14 days(usually right into secondary is the 7 day dry hop) then package, so pretty much I just follow the instructions on the sheet and dont really get to wild with anything, I have sent this to competitions and have scored anywhere from a 46 to a 19, out of 50...................if anyone has some words of wisdom that would be great

 

[IslandLizard]

I would like to take you up on that offer, that is to have a kit that I purchase run through the HBT

Feel free to do so, but please start a new thread for it.

Have you looked at some of the existing threads on that kit. Alas, some are old.
I looked at that kit, upon a friend's question, and it surely can use some tweaking. As with most (IPA) kits, it needs more hops, and the right ones!

That kit is on special sale right now ($22 if you order 3 of their special kit offerings), but that is one that offers only minor savings compared to buying loose ingredients from an LHBS.

 

[user 254557]

I have already ordered 4 of the kits, I usually do when they go on this sale, but i dont get yeast, ill do that when I am ready to brew and I get them unmilled, ill do that when I brew