Dry yeast questions

[Zoltan]

What makes "before pitching" more convenient than "before the mash/before adding the extract"?

I only boil about 3 gallons, adding the other two to the fermenter along with the wort from the nicely-aerating tap. If heat destroys chloramine (one of the rumors I read), then those two added gallons wouldn't get treated. If heat doesn't destroy it, then I guess it would still be around when the two gallons are added. Is there any downside to adding it right before pitching?

 

[worlddivides]

I only boil about 3 gallons, adding the other two to the fermenter along with the wort from the nicely-aerating tap. If heat destroys chloramine (one of the rumors I read), then those two added gallons wouldn't get treated. If heat doesn't destroy it, then I guess it would still be around when the two gallons are added. Is there any downside to adding it right before pitching?

Heat does not destroy chloramine. That "rumor" was just straight-up wrong. In all-grain, you would want all chlorine and chloramine out of the water before doing the mash, but I'm not sure how exactly chlorine or chloramine would affect extract.

If you only boil 3 gallons, but then add another 2 gallons to the fermenter, what you would do is put 5 gallons in a pot, use the Campden on the 5 gallons, then remove 2 of those gallons into another container to add to the fermenter later, and just boil them. Either that or you'd keep them separate and just add the Campden to them separately.

So, Campden tablets kill yeast (it's commonly used to kill off wild yeast and bacteria), so as far as I'm aware, adding Campden immediately before pitching the yeast could potentially kill off all the yeast you've added. The reason why adding the Campden before the boil would not kill off the yeast is because potassium metabisulfite (the common active component of Campden tablets) decomposes at high temperatures. So usually it's added at the beginning to get rid of chlorine and chloramine, then the boil gets rid the Campden itself so it won't harm the yeast.

This is just my understanding of it, though, and I'm no scientist or expert, so I'd be glad for a specialist in the subject to chime in.

 

[Zoltan]

I misspoke above. What I read was that heat destroys Campden, not chloramine, which I think you're saying is true. I get you now that chloramine can affect the wort at boil time, so you want to do it early. I appreciate your information and patience.

 

[day_trippr]

I'm not sure how exactly chlorine or chloramine would affect extract.

It affects extract the same as all grain because the damage is done in the fermentor when the chloramine reacts with yeast derived phenols. When I started brewing it was all extract for a couple of years and the private water company we had back then periodically injected chloramine into the system with zero warning. If that happened on a brew day I'd get the band-aid character and had no idea where it came from back then (this was years before I discovered there was a homebrewtalk.com).

It only hit me a few times over the couple of years so it was a matter of bad timing. When that company folded forcing everyone in the area to dig wells the problem was resolved favorably though at significant expense. Definitely not recommending folks drill wells for brewing

Cheers!

 

[worlddivides]

It affects extract the same as all grain because the damage is done in the fermentor when the chloramine reacts with yeast derived phenols. When I started brewing it was all extract for a couple of years and the private water company we had back then periodically injected chloramine into the system with zero warning. If that happened on a brew day I'd get the band-aid character and had no idea where it came from back then (this was years before I discovered there was a homebrewtalk.com).

It only hit me a few times over the couple of years so it was a matter of bad timing. When that company folded forcing everyone in the area to dig wells the problem was resolved favorably though at significant expense. Definitely not recommending folks drill wells for brewing

Cheers!

I didn't mean "I'm not sure how exactly chlorine or chloramine would affect a fermentation using extract." I meant "I'm not sure exactly how chlorine or chloramine would affect extract in the boil." since he was postulating adding Campden before pitching the yeast since I've heard that chlorine and chloramine can have a negative effect on the mash (producing negative flavor compounds before any yeast has been introduced), but I'm not sure if it'd have any negative effects on extract.

When I first started brewing in the San Francisco Bay Area, I had some of the same experiences you had. Sometimes clean fermentations and sometimes with band-aid flavors, and it seemed impossible to predict at the time.

 

[worlddivides]

I misspoke above. What I read was that heat destroys Campden, not chloramine, which I think you're saying is true. I get you now that chloramine can affect the wort at boil time, so you want to do it early. I appreciate your information and patience.

No prob. At the very least, it'd be worth seeing how much of a difference it has on your brews.

In my case, I actually used distilled water and RO water that I bought from the supermarket before I started using Campden tablets, but I saw a pretty huge difference in the chlorine/chloramine never being present anymore (though my case was like day_trippr's where it seemed like sometimes there was chloramine in the water and sometimes there wasn't).

 

[Zoltan]

I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area and have never experienced a Band-Aid taste, though I'm not sure what a Band-Aid tastes like! But taste can be subtle, and I'm always looking to improve the beer, and this seems like a simple thing to do. If what day_trippr says is true and the band-aid taste forms during fermentation, then I could add it before pitching. Maybe I'll experiment with both ways.
I'm pretty sure that every municipal water system in the U.S. treats the water either with chlorine or chloramine, which is why we don't experience "Montezuma's revenge." Besides e coli, giardia is pretty much pandemic in wildlife and no reservoir or run-off water is safe. When I was a kid, I could go hiking in the Sierra Nevada and drink straight from running streams--no more! I've owned a cabin in the Sierra for decades and it used to be the water from the spring that feeds our small water system was safe to drink without treating--no more!
Chloramine may be used instead of chlorine now because, as someone said, it doesn't degrade and thus is more convenient for the water utility, but it's also better for the consumer because, unlike chlorine, it has no taste. When my utility switched it was a noticeable improvement--taking a shower was no longer evocative of a swimming pool, and the chlorine taste was gone. At the time, they did warn that aquarium water, for example, needed different treatment to make it safe for the fish. In times of drought in the Bay Area when the reservoirs get low, the water utilities sometimes draw supplemental water from the Sacramento river, and perhaps they increase the chloramine then, but it's always present in some amount.

 

[Willy]

I wanted to see if I could taste the difference - just using tap water or first run it thru an RV filter to nix the chlorine and chloramine bogeys.

Yes. It tastes better. Enough to notice.

My water is extra good in Charlotte, NC but still, absolutely worth it to add a Camden tablet or some MBS to take care of it. I think MBS is the simple way to go.

 

[Zoltan]

nix the chlorine and chloramine bogeys

Likely it's one or the other. Maybe if you're tasting it, it's chlorine. I agree that the Cambden treatment is easy, so why not?

 

[worlddivides]

If what day_trippr says is true and the band-aid taste forms during fermentation, then I could add it before pitching. Maybe I'll experiment with both ways.

That sounds pretty risky to me, but I'd be interested in seeing the results of the experiment. Although Campden won't kill brewers yeast like they kill wild yeast, they could potentially make the fermentation more difficult for them since you won't have the benefit of the heat of the boil decomposing the Campden. So I imagine you'll still get fermentation if you add the Campden immediately before pitching the yeast, but it might be a lot slower of a fermentation. I've never done it before, though.

 

[MaxStout]

Some people add small doses of metabisulfite at packaging, as an O2 scavenger. I do it, since I bottle. I add 10ppm, which does not affect the yeast. I would think a similar dose at yeast pitch would have no adverse effect.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Some people add small doses of metabisulfite at packaging, as an O2 scavenger. I do it, since I bottle. I add 10ppm, which does not affect the yeast. I would think a similar dose at yeast pitch would have no adverse effect.

Does anyone actually know what chemical/natural-extract is used, to make those "Oxygen-scavenging" bottle caps, well, "scavenge oxygen"?

 

[MaxStout]

Does anyone actually know what chemical/natural-extract is used, to make those "Oxygen-scavenging" bottle caps, well, "scavenge oxygen"?

There's a US patent (expired) that discloses several possibilities, including ascorbic, various salts, chelation agents, etc., in a polymeric carrier. Look at the patent's claims.

Your guess is as good as mine as to which substance(s) they actually use now.

 

[ncbrewer]

If what day_trippr says is true and the band-aid taste forms during fermentation, then I could add it before pitching. Maybe I'll experiment with both ways.

There is an old HBT thread from 2012 - 2014 (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/campden-tablets-sulfites-and-brewing-water.361073/) where AJ DeLange and Martin Brungard discuss chlorine/ chloramine. A question was asked: "Does the Campden need to be added before mash, or can it be added to the BK?" Martin Brungard's answer was "Yes, it MUST be added to the water prior to contacting any malt constituents or chlorophenols will be created." Since the extract comes from the grain, it may be best to treat the water with campden before adding the extract. I'm not sure about this - just tossing it out for consideration.

 

[LostHopper]

Pardon the interruption: longtime ale brewer and just starting to brew some lagers.
Almost all my beers are 1045-1052 OG. Is one packet of 3470 adequate? HBS owner said one is fine but two will just kick off faster.
That has been my experience but I didn't know if there are flavor impacts from the slow or fast start. I can't tell any difference. (4 hours vs 24+ hours)
I pitch at 62-64 as the temp is falling. Ferments at around 52-54 before bumping up for DA rest.
Thanks

When I heard Mitch Steele on a podcast say he uses dry yeast in his brewery I abandoned all liquid except the occasional saison.

 

[Miraculix]

Pardon the interruption: longtime ale brewer and just starting to brew some lagers.
Almost all my beers are 1045-1052 OG. Is one packet of 3470 adequate? HBS owner said one is fine but two will just kick off faster.
That has been my experience but I didn't know if there are flavor impacts from the slow or fast start. I can't tell any difference. (4 hours vs 24+ hours)
I pitch at 62-64 as the temp is falling. Ferments at around 52-54 before bumping up for DA rest.
Thanks

When I heard Mitch Steele on a podcast say he uses dry yeast in his brewery I abandoned all liquid except the occasional saison.

Use two or make a starter with one pack.