Rehydrating dry yeast

[stickyfinger]

I had to make a trip out of the mountains today to go to the doctor so I stopped at but local homebrew shop and bought me extra us 05 yeast so I can double pitch

what is this, little brewery on the prairie? ma and pa took the wagon to town to see the doc. stopped for provisions on the way home. we're all stocked up for the next 3 months.

 

[kl Roosevelt brewer]

Yeah whatever it's more like being disabled and doing what I can

 

[stickyfinger]

Yeah whatever it's more like being disabled and doing what I can

oh. now i feel like ****. i was just making a stupid joke. sorry, dude. i'm an a-hole. i thought maybe you were an apocalypse guy or something. seriously, best wishes and good brewing.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Brochure_Tips_and_Tricks_GB_web_planche-bd.pdf

This is one of the better overview documents I've seen on yeast.

The pitching options listed here appear to remain consistent with the data sheets for the the individual strains:

" — WATER OR WORT?
Fermentis yeast can be rehydrated with sterile water or sterile wort,
but in both cases, sterility of the rehydration environment is fundamental"

Has dry yeast, as a manufactured product, has gotten better over the last 5-10 years?

 

[IslandLizard]

The Tips and Tricks section of the Fermentis website https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Brochure_Tips_and_Tricks_GB_web_planche-bd.pdf has some info that I haven't seen before [...]

That simplifies the procedure by eliminating the 30 minute stir time. But the individual instructions for US-05 still call for the 30 minute stir. It seems contradictory. I imagine very few home brewers stir for 30 minutes.

Thanks for the link!
I have never seen that brochure or even some of its essential parts before.

Their website is not especially intuitive, and as you said, contains contradictory information and instructions. Or should that rather be "incomplete information and instructions?"

For example, in this bulletin they don't mention anywhere the temperature between the rehydrated yeast slurry and the wort to be within 10°F (or better within 5°F) when pitching. There's not a word about wort aeration either.

This is the first time I see them mention chlorinated water will kill the [rehydrating] yeast. Although, IIRC, Chris White's book "Yeast" makes note of it.

I don't think ANY homebrewer will stir that rehydrating slurry for 30 minutes unless he/she uses a stir plate. And that may not be good either.

 

[IslandLizard]

With any kit (or recipe) I brew it "as is" the first time. NB also offers customer support with their kits - so they would be a good resource.

I would brew the kit any way I'd see fit, and totally ignore any of their instructions that mention the use of a secondary. Leave it in the primary until you're ready to bottle or keg it.
Also their fermentation "time table" is ultra conservative, especially when applied to hoppy beers.

Customer support? I wouldn't take their word for truth either. The advice given here, especially from those who have been brewing for years, is so much better and up to date.

Why isn't there a hop stand in that Dead Ringer? It's 2018 already!

 

[IslandLizard]

I read a recent article that says that stirring the yeast is really bad. But I find that after 15 minutes there is still dry yeast across the top of the water. So I gently stir it up until all the yeast is wet. [...]

Do you happen to have a link to that article?

I can understand stirring at the wrong time would indeed not be good. Perhaps because at critical times their cell walls are not up to it. Possibly shear stress?
Or one may incorporate oxygen while stirring, and that may harm the yeast at that point without having any sugars around to consume.
They're very fragile creatures, especially during the rehydration process. That sketch of a yeast's cell wall, before and after rehydration, tells stories. See how wrinkled it is when dried?

Refreezing or refrigerating an open brick or partially used pouch is not recommended either. If you do, you need to use them within a few days or discard after that period. Something bad must happens to them. Probably moisture related. I'm sure they've done the research, it's their business.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm going to rat myself out.
It seems my preference is evolving toward liquid yeasts simply because of variety. The last dry strain was a pitch of 32/70 and the beer didn't turn out well from start to finish, so it's more than likely just bias. SO-5 has worked well in the past on simple cider and beer, but I found myself buying WLP-001 to compare. The German-styled hefeweizen yeasts I like are practically non-existent in dry form, so there's that, too.
I've been wanting to try the S-189 yeast for a Pilsner-styled beer. It seems a great fit for that sort of brew ... then again, my local brewshop carries the Budvar strain as a liquid yeast.

<pulls hair>

Leave your hair, and stick to that Budvar. It makes an incredible Pilsner!

I read somewhere lately that dry Pilsner/Lager yeasts aren't quite Pilsner/Lager yeasts... Something to do with them no being able to survive the drying or rehydration process, IIRC.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I would brew the kit any way I'd see fit ...

That approach works for a lot of people.

In my experience, those who I've seen start brewing by following the kit instructions have (knock on wood) always had a good initial experience. Those who decided to customize almost always had a good initial experience. So I'm willing to trust the kit manufacturers for that good initial brewing experience, then help brewers customize their processes as time goes on.

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] In my experience, those who I've seen start brewing by following the kit instructions have (knock on wood) always had a good initial experience. [...] So I'm willing to trust the kit manufacturers for that good initial brewing experience, then help brewers customize their processes as time goes on.

Kit instructions are horrendously outdated, and sometimes plain wrong.
(Beer) kits are made for convenience, almost foolproof if you can follow directions. But they may not give you the best possible beer from it.

If someone buys a kit and brews it as is, that's fine, doesn't know any better. It will be beer, but no real Ringer 6-8 weeks later when he or she opens the first bottle.

But if that brewer has been on HBT, looked around, posted a thread on that kit, and is now better informed, why shouldn't he or she apply some of that wisdom right there?

The brewer is still adhering to the kit, mostly, with any or all of the following optional tweaks:

• just adds only half the extract to the 3 gallons of steeping water at the beginning of the (partial) boil,
• the balance of extract added at flameout,
• jostles some hop additions around and adds a couple ounces,
• adds a 30' hop stand at a lowered temperature, rather than outdated 30, 15, 10, 5, and/or 0 minutes hop additions,
• rehydrates the dry yeast before pitching,
• and possibly aerates the wort a bit.

• Then sticks the fermentor in a nice cool spot, ferm fridge, or in a water filled tote,
• skips the whole 2-4 weeks of secondary,
• dry hops in the primary fermentor, 2 weeks after pitching or when FG is on target and stable,
• cold crashes if possible,
• packages 5 days after dry hopping rather than after 2 weeks,
• and limits exposure to air as much as possible during the whole process

I don't think we should deny the brewer that right by not telling him or her in advance.

 

[kl Roosevelt brewer]

When using the primary fermenter only and eliminating the secondary and dry hopping in the primary they gave me what looks like hop pellets and I'm assuming you just crack the lid on the primary and throw them in at the appropriate time. Then after five days I plan on siphoning it out into a 5 gallon stainless steel keg. I am assuming I should be able to siphon without sucking up any pieces of hop or trub? Does everything sink to the bottom? So I should just be able to siphon off the top until I get to the bottom?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I don't think we should deny the brewer that right by not telling him or her in advance.

hmmm... I was just offering my opinion and what works well for the people that I encounter when homebrewing. I wasn't denying anyone anything, just politely offering my opinions.

But, if outdated kit recipe processes are the problem, I'll offer this:

If you (and/or the forum) were to put together a complete, well thought out, well written, poka-yoke'ed modern (2019) first brew day process, I would likely be a big fan and promoter of it. If it was well written and "bullet-proof", it would offer a the opportunity for both a good first brewing experience and a really good first beer.

 

[IslandLizard]

When using the primary fermenter only and eliminating the secondary and dry hopping in the primary they gave me what looks like hop pellets and I'm assuming you just crack the lid on the primary and throw them in at the appropriate time. Then after five days I plan on siphoning it out into a 5 gallon stainless steel keg. I am assuming I should be able to siphon without sucking up any pieces of hop or trub? Does everything sink to the bottom? So I should just be able to siphon off the top until I get to the bottom?

To preserve the CO2 rich headspace you could drop 1-2 ounces of dry hop pellets down the airlock hole, a bit of a pain, but doable.
Or lift the lid enough, drop in the hops, and close.
If you have CO2 available, flush the headspace when done.

5 days after dry hopping, cold crash for 2 days at 32F. That should drop most yeast and hop matter to the bottom.

Don't stick that racking cane/siphon all the way down to the bottom, in the trub. Start siphoning from the middle, and lower slowly as the beer level drops.
You could tie some hop bag material or voile draped loosely around the racking cane/siphon to hold back any loose suspended hop fiber.
Tilt the fermentor toward the cane when you get close to the bottom so the beer well remains deeper. Leave the last quart (or 2) of beer. You can use that to swirl up the yeast/trub slurry, store in a mason jar in the fridge, and pitch some into your next beer.

Oh, I use a bucket clip that holds the cane along the bucket's side, at any height. The best $2 I ever spent.

 

[kl Roosevelt brewer]

Thank you so much going to get started on this next week and I will keep you posted you have been so helpful

 

[IslandLizard]

hmmm... I was just offering my opinion and what works well for the people that I encounter when homebrewing. I wasn't denying anyone anything, just politely offering my opinions.

But, if outdated kit recipe processes are the problem, I'll offer this:

If you (and/or the forum) were to put together a complete, well thought out, well written, poka-yoke'ed modern (2019) first brew day process, I would likely be a big fan and promoter of it. If it was well written and "bullet-proof", it would offer a the opportunity for both a good first brewing experience and a really good first beer.

No, the opinion you offered is good, you may have more experience dealing with brew n00bs. It can be a pretty intimidating process, so anything that makes it easier to follow and more foolproof is a road to success. People hate spending $30-50 on a kit and have it fail. Besides, that first homebrewed beer always tastes surprisingly good, why change that?

Bad and outdated kit instructions are everywhere, it's a real shame. Most we never see, lying under the LHBS counters.
I noticed, very recently NB has changed the use of a secondary into an optional step... that's at least some progress.

Sorry, that last line of "not denying them" was kinda tongue in cheek. A Jurassic Park paraphrase.

Good idea on creating good, solid, clear, basic kit brewing instructions that make better beer first time around. That would be a very useful project, yeah!

Now good (kit) instructions do exist, e.g., Palmer's are top notch. There are plenty around here too, and elsewhere, just not all in one place.
The more difficult task is getting those instructions to kit users before they follow the included ones and convince them into using the alternative. NB is gonna have kittens and sell their kaboodle before that happens.

Of all kit users, how many are on HBT? Or other brew forums? The majority doesn't even know we exist.

I talk to accomplished homebrewers and many still secondary. Their beer is always good, they've mastered the process. It's just not something newbie brewers should be doing, it's an advanced technique, more can go wrong than right and it isn't obvious.

 

[kl Roosevelt brewer]

Don't build a house by watching the do-it-yourself programs on TV or by reading a book. Talk to an expert like me! That's where I shine you guys definitely shine with all of your experience here and I'm so grateful

 

[kl Roosevelt brewer]

Show my next questions are concerning my keg. When I bought the keg I saw it off one of the pickup tube to keep from dispensing any settling debris from the mead or ciders overtime. I have a red raspberry apple cider keg that should run out about the time my beer is ready and I was going to clean it good and use it. If I use the protocols you mentioned with the cold crash and then siphon with a filter of some sort on the racking cane am I going to pick up enough yeast settlement to worry about in my keg? Just going to use the CO2 to carbonate instead of the priming sugar is that the best process?

 

[kl Roosevelt brewer]

One of the quick question I seen the come up with lots of them. When making Mead it is a daily protocol just the world the bucket vigorously 2D gas the must. From what I am Gathering when you make beer it is a set and forget it approached?

 

[NGD]

One of the quick question I seen the come up with lots of them. When making Mead it is a daily protocol just the world the bucket vigorously 2D gas the must. From what I am Gathering when you make beer it is a set and forget it approached?

Not sure I understand the question clearly, but if your asking if there's anything you need to check on daily during fermentation..the answer is your temp. Just make sure the temp is in the right range, and don't fuss with it otherwise. If you have good fermentation temp control, the less you mess with it the better.

 

[NGD]

Here are the rehydration instructions from Fermentis (Nov 2016 Tech Data Sheet):

REHYDRATION INSTRUCTIONS:
Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or wort at 25 to 29°C (77°F to 84°F).
Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes.
Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.

The "Gently stir for 30 minutes" has always boggled my mind. 30 minutes! Are they serious?

Did they mean to say 30 seconds instead of 30 minutes and forgot the rest? Lost in translation?

lol. I was just re-reading these instructions the other day because I thought my memory was failing me. I agree. Who the hell is going to stir for 30 minutes. I see that new link has these instructions, which make much more sense.

Rehydrate the dry yeast into yeast cream by sprinkling it in 10 times
its own weight of sterile water or wort.
- Gently stir and leave for 30 minutes.
- Finally, pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.

 

[ancientmariner52]

I've pitched the same yeast dry, pitched rehydrated, even made a starter once. Not scientific, but I could never tell a nickel's worth of difference. The big difference came with thorough aeration, using an aquarium pump for five minutes, or until the foam threatens to make a mess. I pitch just before aeration, because I don't want to wait for said foam to settle. Oh, and I always pitch two packages for 5 gallons, regardless of OG. YMMV, but it works for me.

 

[IslandLizard]

One of the quick question I seen the come up with lots of them. When making Mead it is a daily protocol just the world the bucket vigorously 2D gas the must. From what I am Gathering when you make beer it is a set and forget it approached?

Oh, to de-gas!
Beer should not be degassed, actually the carbonation from the fermentation helps protect it from oxidation. It also gets you to your final carbonation level faster.

Since there's nothing to set at that point, there's nothing to forget either.

The "set and forget" method generally refers to carbonating your keg of beer with pressurized CO2. Put it under 12 psi at 40F, and it takes about a week to 2 weeks to carbonate properly.

That in contrast to forced carbonation, which can be done in 15 minutes under 30-40 psi with strong agitation (rolling, shaking), and takes a day or 2 to stabilize. If overshot, it may take a week. I always force carbonate, have too little patience for "set and forget."

 

[IslandLizard]

I've pitched the same yeast dry, pitched rehydrated, even made a starter once. Not scientific, but I could never tell a nickel's worth of difference. The big difference came with thorough aeration, using an aquarium pump for five minutes, or until the foam threatens to make a mess. I pitch just before aeration, because I don't want to wait for said foam to settle. Oh, and I always pitch two packages for 5 gallons, regardless of OG. YMMV, but it works for me.

By pitching 2 packs, you're compensating for killing off half of each. That's why you don't see a difference.
Making starters with dry yeast is trickier since the inoculation rate is much too high in a typical 2 liter starter. Use a larger starter or pitch less dry yeast. Again, proper rehydration gives you twice the viable cells from the start compared to just sprinkling.

Agreed, oxygenation/aeration makes a notable difference in how the fermentation progresses, and finishes.

 

[IslandLizard]

lol. I was just re-reading these instructions the other day because I thought my memory was failing me. I agree. Who the hell is going to stir for 30 minutes. I see that new link has these instructions, which make much more sense.

Rehydrate the dry yeast into yeast cream by sprinkling it in 10 times
its own weight of sterile water or wort.
- Gently stir and leave for 30 minutes.
- Finally, pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.

What new link? Where did you find that? That sounds definitely wrong.

 

[kh54s10]

Has anyone seen a study on cell counts making a starter with dry yeast? If it is true that you kill off half of the cells pitching in wort. Then you are really starting with half a pack then building back up. You might end up with the same cell counts after doing the starter that the pack held in the first place!

 

[IslandLizard]

Has anyone seen a study on cell counts making a starter with dry yeast? If it is true that you kill off half of the cells pitching in wort. Then you are really starting with half a pack then building back up. You might end up with the same cell counts after doing the starter that the pack held in the first place!

I would still re-hydrate the dry yeast before pitching into 1.037-1.040 starter wort.

And, no, haven't seen much on starters with dry yeast.

One important thing that has remained obscured when talking about yeast pitching is to keep the temperature difference between the yeast slurry and wort you're pitching in at 10F or less, 5F being preferred. This to prevent petite mutation. Petite mutation is a concern for all yeasts, liquid and dry, but Fermentis mentions it more prominently. This can have more detrimental effects than underpitching at the correct temp difference.

 

[ancientmariner52]

By pitching 2 packs, you're compensating for killing off half of each. That's why you don't see a difference.
Making starters with dry yeast is trickier since the inoculation rate is much too high in a typical 2 liter starter. Use a larger starter or pitch less dry yeast. Again, proper rehydration gives you twice the viable cells from the start compared to just sprinkling.

Agreed, oxygenation/aeration makes a notable difference in how the fermentation progresses, and finishes.

No doubt you are correct. I'm just kinda lazy. I guess what I'm saying is that beer and yeast are very flexible and forgiving. I've done more things wrong than there actually are, and still get, for me at least, good to excellent beer. I'm sure more refined palettes would disagree.

 

[ncbrewer]

I feel that the brewer needs to be careful about some of these procedures [in-line responses]:

Kit instructions are horrendously outdated, and sometimes plain wrong.
(Beer) kits are made for convenience, almost foolproof if you can follow directions. But they may not give you the best possible beer from it.

If someone buys a kit and brews it as is, that's fine, doesn't know any better. It will be beer, but no real Ringer 6-8 weeks later when he or she opens the first bottle.

But if that brewer has been on HBT, looked around, posted a thread on that kit, and is now better informed, why shouldn't he or she apply some of that wisdom right there?

The brewer is still adhering to the kit, mostly, with any or all of the following optional tweaks:

• just adds only half the extract to the 3 gallons of steeping water at the beginning of the (partial) boil,
• the balance of extract added at flameout,

Be aware of higher hop utilization with the lower gravity boil

• jostles some hop additions around and adds a couple ounces,

Need to know how to revise the hop schedule

• adds a 30' hop stand at a lowered temperature, rather than outdated 30, 15, 10, 5, and/or 0 minutes hop additions,

Need to know the effect on bitterness and flavor/aroma

• rehydrates the dry yeast before pitching,

There are some potential problems such as sanitation and too long a lag before pitching

• and possibly aerates the wort a bit.

Be careful about sanitation

• Then sticks the fermentor in a nice cool spot, ferm fridge, or in a water filled tote,

No problem

• skips the whole 2-4 weeks of secondary,

No problem

• dry hops in the primary fermentor, 2 weeks after pitching or when FG is on target and stable,

Be careful about air exposure when dry hopping

• cold crashes if possible,

Be careful about suckback

• packages 5 days after dry hopping rather than after 2 weeks,

No problem

• and limits exposure to air as much as possible during the whole process

No problem
I don't think we should deny the brewer that right by not telling him or her in advance.

IMO some improvements should wait until the brewer has some experience. I agree with these points, but they should be done with adequate knowledge.

 

[NGD]

What new link? Where did you find that? That sounds definitely wrong.

Apologies, I should have included the link. That quote is from page 10 of the fermentis Rips and Tricks .pdf.
https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Brochure_Tips_and_Tricks_GB_web_planche-bd.pdf

 

[RPh_Guy]

Again, proper rehydration gives you twice the viable cells from the start compared to just sprinkling.

This is a fact.

It's also well-established that sprinkling produces beer of the same quality, so either method is perfectly fine.

The "rehydrators" forget the dead sprinkled cells provide a massive dose of nutrients allowing the surviving cells to complete a healthy fermentation.

Can't we all be friends?