Reducing the Kviek twang

[theflamingchicken]

I've been having some success brewing pseudolagers with Lutra, mostly at room temperature. The resulting beers have a clean profile and they are very quaffable, but every one of them has a slight but discernible twang. It's difficult to describe, but I would call it something approximating a tart lemon flavor. It's less noticeable by the end of the pint then it is on a first sip. But when a friend brought over some clean German lagers, I was exceedingly aware of that lemony tartness in my beers.

I have heard some mention that Kviek fermentation can lower pH. First, I wonder to what extent the lower pH has on the tart flavor of the resulting beer. Second, I wonder if by raising the pH, e.g., in the mash, I can effectively offset the Kviek's effect and remove the tart flavor altogether.

Has anyone successfully removed that Kviek twang from Lutra in their pseudolagers?

 

[mac_1103]

Fermentation with any yeast lowers pH. Are Kvieks supposed to lower it more than others? Actually checking the pH of your finished beers might be informative, especially if you have some fermented with other yeasts for comparison. I would be concerned that raising the mash pH would create more problems than it solves.

 

[theflamingchicken]

No, I haven't checked the pH of my finished beers. I've read online at Milk the Funk that Kviek yeasts can lower pH more than other yeasts. They link to this article suggesting to use mineral additions to the water to buffer. I've never tried this, but I'm curious to give it a shot!

 

[Bobby_M]

The best way to do it is stop using Kviek yeast. I'm hoping it's a fad and I'm ready for it go back to being a regional curiosity. I was tolerant of that flavor in a lot of NEIPA when I first experimented with it but jamming it in to all other styles is immediately obvious. I'd recommend changing over to 34/70 if you have to warm ferment. Try to keep it in the 60s for the first 5 days and it will clean up just fine.

 

[Willy]

I used to disparage kveik until I fermented Voss at 90+°F for 14 days. It was crazy hot, in the garage with outside temps hitting 99+. It turned out really nice with no twang. High temps and a little patience. If you are kegging it after 4-7 days of fermenting (cuz it's so fast) - chill. Patience. Give it 2 weeks at high temps. The recipe I used was a Euro Blonde IPA. Yum. The fruit twang (apple?) wasn't an issue.

 

[HopSing]

+1 for increasing fermentation temps for Kveik. I use 34/70 in the colder months, but my summer "lagers" all use Kveik Lutra pitched at 85F and kept between 82F and 87F for the first 4 days even if you're wrapping the fermenter in blankets. Let it run for 2 weeks even if it is done.

Also, how often do you deep clean your hot side, cold side, and your beer lines? I was getting an odd lemony flavor a while back in batches I've made dozens of times and it went away after cleaning my lines with BLC and also doing a deep clean and soak of kettles and fermenters with hot (150F) PBW. I now clean my lines and stainless every 4-6 months, which is probably longer than most, but it works for me. Might not be your cause, but something to consider.

~HopSing.

 

[theflamingchicken]

I've been loving Voss for IPAs and other big brews, e.g., my Christmas Ale. I agree that twang isn't an issue for me in those; I'm not sure I ever perceived it beyond the half pound of hops and other adjuncts.

Also, how often do you deep clean your hot side, cold side, and your beer lines?

~HopSing.

Hmm, my beer lines could use a good clean out. I suppose it's been a few months. I will try it directly from the fermenter the next time I use Lutra and see if I still identify that tartness.

I typically pitch my Lutra at warm temperatures (90 or so) and then let it ferment at room temperature. Do you keep it in the 80s for the full two weeks?

That lemon flavor may just be inherent in the yeast. I went back to the manufacture's website and found this:

Our tasting panel described a sample Helles brewed with the Lutra® isolate as clean, crisp, dry, grainy, and “lemony dough.”

 

[Willy]

+1 for increasing fermentation temps for Kveik. I use 34/70 in the colder months, but my summer "lagers" all use Kveik Lutra pitched at 85F and kept between 82F and 87F for the first 4 days even if you're wrapping the fermenter in blankets. Let it run for 2 weeks even if it is done.

Also, how often do you deep clean your hot side, cold side, and your beer lines? I was getting an odd lemony flavor a while back in batches I've made dozens of times and it went away after cleaning my lines with BLC and also doing a deep clean and soak of kettles and fermenters with hot (150F) PBW. I now clean my lines and stainless every 4-6 months, which is probably longer than most, but it works for me. Might not be your cause, but something to consider.

~HopSing.

Agree. Let it run till it's done (2 weeks).

I clean the beer lines (BLC, rinse, star San, purge, pour) once a month or more. It is on my to do list for today.

 

[Miraculix]

You cannot get rid of the twang, it's part of this yeasts flavour. Some express it stronger like Voss and some weaker like lutra, but ultimately all of them have it. You have to accept it and build recipes that suit these type of yeasts. Kveik (not kviek) does very well in stronger beers with lower hopping rates in my experience. Something like 7% abv and stronger plus 20-25 ibus results in marvellous brews.

It does also very well with rye and wheat. My favourite brew was a darker rye kveik so far. It didn't need aging but was still great after one year. I should brew that one again actually...

The beauty is you only have to chill the wort down to 37c, wrap the fermenter in a blanket and let it run it's course. Three days and fermentation is basically finished. Leave it for five days and you're good to bottle.

 

[camonick]

The best way to do it is stop using Kviek yeast. I'm hoping it's a fad and I'm ready for it go back to being a regional curiosity.

That’s the best thing I’ve read in a long time.

 

[Miraculix]

The best way to do it is stop using Kviek yeast. I'm hoping it's a fad and I'm ready for it go back to being a regional curiosity. I was tolerant of that flavor in a lot of NEIPA when I first experimented with it but jamming it in to all other styles is immediately obvious. I'd recommend changing over to 34/70 if you have to warm ferment. Try to keep it in the 60s for the first 5 days and it will clean up just fine.

Agreed, it needs it's designated wort. It's a kveik, not a lager. If done correctly, it has it's own beauty.

 

[lumbergh]

A few years ago when I was still bottling, Voss gave an odd taste (I think it was the twang) if I wasn't careful when pouring and got some of the yeast in the glass. That problem went away once I started kegging.

 

[Halfakneecap]

I always got a flavour from Lutra. Im trying Opshaug soon. Will report back.

I dont think any of them are clean.

Im hoping to use the Opshaug in everyday beers with hops. Mostly hoppy amber ales where i may not pick up the flavour. Plus, my fermenting fridge is dying, so thought id try them again. Good excuse to try another strain

 

[Miraculix]

I always got a flavour from Lutra. Im trying Opshaug soon. Will report back.

I dont think any of them are clean.

Im hoping to use the Opshaug in everyday beers with hops. Mostly hoppy amber ales where i may not pick up the flavour. Plus, my fermenting fridge is dying, so thought id try them again. Good excuse to try another strain

As others have said before, 3470 fermented warm would be an excellent choice for this scenario. Wlp800 is also remarkably clean at room temperature. Diamond lager as well, it's basically 3470 with better flocculation. Skip the kveik. They are kveik yeasts and therefore only suitable for kveik type of beer.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Where did lager yeast come into it?

Lagers i use S23 and S189, quite happy with them.

 

[Miraculix]

Where did lager yeast come into it?

Lagers i use S23 and S189, quite happy with them.

OP asked for something lager-ish and clean without temp control. That is a perfect case for the yeasts I have mentioned.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Has anyone successfully removed that Kviek twang from Lutra in their pseudolagers?

What does your brewing water look like? I have wondered how much the brewing water might impact final beer pH.

I have only use Lutra a few times. A while back I did a 3 gal batch that was split with US-05, Voss, and Lutra. I measured the pH and they were all quite close (within margin of error with my $40 meter) As I recall, the US-05 measured the lowest. I did feel that the Lutra batch had a bit of a twang, but I could it seemed to age out after a few weeks.