Recipe Etiquette

[Yooper]

So is this acceptable at a professional level? Is it fine for a professional brewery to create their beers using posted recipes from other sources (professional, amateur, whatever) and then make their money and/or win their awards based off of those beers?

I can't see why it wouldn't be. I mean, if something is public it's not a protected recipe.

I don't think any pros would want to, though, as the pro brewers I know are proud of their creative ability and recipe formulation. Some have been trained in Germany or at the Siebel, and I can't imagine them searching online for a Sierra Nevada clone.

But sure, if they want to see how another brewery does a peach saison, or something, they can peruse the recipes online.

 

[BrotherGrim]

You made me choke on my beer!

Here's the thing, though. It's YOUR beer. You made it, it's yours.

I never told anyone that you brewed it, I took all that credit myself! And yes, it was mine. I would have shared a pint with you, but it was still mine! I just wanted to give the credit for the recipe that in my opinion you deserved. When I made your fizzy yellow, I changed the hop schedule a bit and used a different yeast, so I am sure that the end result was different than what you brew.

My method for this one was reading the recipe thread completely (yes... all of it... it took for. ev. ver.) I was then able to decide how I wanted to alter it and brew it. I made the changes I wanted and brewed up what was regarded by all who tasted it a mighty fine beer. I gladly took credit for how it turned out, but when asked by other brewers if the recipe was mine, I told them it was not, and where the original could be found.

I just think that acknowledging the original author/artist/brewer/brewmistress/etc. is an honest thing to do. There was work and effort that was not my own applied to creating the recipe, and it should be recognized. I do appreciate the fact that you posted it out here where any of us can access it, and I know I could have brewed it and you would have never known, but I would.

So thanks again for a great recipe.

 

[pwkblue]

So is this acceptable at a professional level? Is it fine for a professional brewery to create their beers using posted recipes from other sources (professional, amateur, whatever) and then make their money and/or win their awards based off of those beers?

legal yes, but at a commercial level not really proper. At a slightly higher level it happens all the time: Just look at KBS...it gets rave reviews and acclaim...now every brewery in the country is making a bourbon barrel aged imperial coffee and chocolate stout. Are some clones and copies? perhaps, and while many are similar they all end up unique. Of course...was Founder's the first to do it? Probably not?

At a commercial level I don't think it is proper(legal yes)

 

[moti_mo]

I can't see why it wouldn't be. I mean, if something is public it's not a protected recipe.

I don't think any pros would want to, though, as the pro brewers I know are proud of their creative ability and recipe formulation. Some have been trained in Germany or at the Siebel, and I can't imagine them searching online for a Sierra Nevada clone.

But sure, if they want to see how another brewery does a peach saison, or something, they can peruse the recipes online.

I agree with this completely, and I think this is part of the point Rev2010 is trying to make, if not completely winning over some people. At a certain point in a lot of (but not all) brewers' careers, brewing other peoples' recipes doesn't cut it any more. If your process is good, your process is good, and winning competitions using well-established recipes that you know are winners doesn't really feel like that much of an accomplishment any more.

At that point, the next step is to create your own recipes so that you're making something that isn't readily available out there, using your knowledge of the subtleties of how different ingredients play off of each other to make a unique and delicious beer. To downplay the development of a unique recipe, like some (but not everyone of course) in this thread has done, is a disservice to those who try to do this on a regular basis (amateur or professional).

You don't have to have attended Siebels to come up with great recipes and to put a strong emphasis on creative ability and recipe formulation in your brewing. Tons of amateur brewers do this all the time. Its just another approach to brewing, and another approach to entering competitions. If you're really looking to get feedback on how you're dialing in your process and your brewing skill, then entering tried-and-true recipes that are known winners is a great way to do this. So that is another approach. Neither are wrong, as you said. I just think that discounting recipe formulation as secondary to process doesn't tell the full story. Both are paramount to making good and unique beer.

 

[Rev2010]

Copyright law says a recipe is not enough to earn copyright. This is because my own process and decisions directly influence the outcome of the recipe.

No, it's not copyrightable because no one should have a monopoly on how to make a food item.

The difference is that anyone can't just come up with that song.

Sure they can. Plenty of musicians have been sued over nearly exactly similar musical passages that the originator claimed was "ripped off" when the accused artist never even heard any of that artists material. There are only so many notes on a guitar and so many ways to arrange them that things that have been done are always repeatedly being done again by someone else. In those instances it has to be proven to be copied directly from the accusing artist and not a new body of work that is still it's own separate work (different lyrics, bassline, drumbeat but same guitar passages for example).

Recipe formulations are limited and style limits them further.

It's beer. Last I checked there are no limits. Maybe if you want to compete in a specific style then yeah, but the same thing applies if I showed up to a flamenco guitar competition and played the blues.

Changing the instrument does not change the song. Changing the conditions of fermentation does change the beer.

Changing fermentation temp changes the taste of the beer. It doesn't change the style.

So you're saying it's not absurd that music is copyrightable but it isn't absurd that a recipe isn't. There has to be some reason one is OK and the other is not.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. A song is a several minute long culmination of notes, lyrics, drums, etc arranged in a certain way. There are plenty of instances where there is the same "riff" in different songs, it's all over the place and no one is getting sued because no one can own the exclusive rights to the E Chord -> D Chord -> G Chord combination. This is the same for recipes. No one can own exclusive rights to a pumpkin pie with 4lbs of pumpkin, 1 tsp of Cinnamon, 1/2 tsp of Nutmeg.... you get the point.



Rev.

 

[moti_mo]

legal yes, but at a commercial level not really proper. At a slightly higher level it happens all the time: Just look at KBS...it gets rave reviews and acclaim...now every brewery in the country is making a bourbon barrel aged imperial coffee and chocolate stout. Are some clones and copies? perhaps, and while many are similar they all end up unique. Of course...was Founder's the first to do it? Probably not?

At a commercial level I don't think it is proper(legal yes)

Again, I'm not sure why it would be "proper" at one level and not another. Is it an ethical issue to use someone else's recipe only when you make money off of it? If so, why does money make it an ethical issue? In both cases, the recipes are free and public. Is it unethical if you enter a comp with someone else's un-credited recipe and win a medal, and potentially another prize (cash, gift certificates, etc.). At what monetary level does it change from "proper" to "not proper"?

 

[kblankenship11]

You are kidding yourself if you think you are brewing a classic style and believe you have created a new recipe. EVERYTHING has been done before in brewing...if it hasn't been done, it is probably a dumb idea and won't work.

I like this discussion!! I agree with gbx. If you are brewing something that isn't wildly unique (oyster stout comes to mind...) it's been done before.

Pilsner Urquell is a pretty basic recipe. But the execution of a recipe like that is critical. There are a million ways to f*k that up--and I bet if you put a homebrew bottle of that next to a bottle from the store and gave it to your buddy he would notice the difference, even if you had the recipe from the brewery.

 

[BrotherGrim]

I think it really boils down to choice. If you feel that entering a competition with a recipe that you did not create yourself is OK and the recipe is in a public forum, then go for it. It's not for me, but I don't mind if you do. If I did enter such a beer, I would have to make a note of who's recipe it was. For instance, I might be convinced to enter "Revvy's Pale: A helluvaway to haul water!!"

Different strokes and all.

 

[lou2row]

My two cents:
-I try to give credit in one form or another to anyone I have gotten a recipe from on here. If I make Yoopers "I pooped today" brown ale, I may keep the same name. Or I may give Yooper credit by keeping her in the name; say "Yoopy's brown Poopy" ale. Or if I get asked about the recipe, I would say where it originated, and then comment what changes I made.

-If I am happy with how my version of Yooper Pooper came out, I would have no problem entering it in a competition if I am looking for comments on it from experts. Though I will add, I would not likely enter it into a big competition to win prizes, unless I had made several revisions and changes to the original. Just my personal etiquette.

-The world is full of people that will steal ideas to make themselves feel important. I have dealt with this at work, as ideas I came up with were stolen and engineers would say they came up with it after I had to draw them pictures of how to make it work.

 

[malweth]

I think this is an issue that can never get universal agreement. I expect most people don't enter unique beers into competition. We are hopefully getting exactly what we expect out of the comp.

On the other hand, while I can respect the point of view, I'd be offended if someone said my medal didn't count because I used someone else's recipe.

Is it more of a creative output to start from scratch? Certainly. Is it going to win? Not without more money than I can spend on beer or more beer than I can possibly drink (at least without destroying my body) (or a lot of luck). Luckily for all the homebrewers who aren't at the master brewer level there are amateur and pro brewers willing to release their recipes. It's also lucky for the AHA that recipe-users are welcomed to enter competitions (how would you feel winning in a category with two entries)?

Furthermore, at what point does one's output become not worthwhile? Did you read Designing Great Beers? Do you credit Ray Daniels on each of the recipes you create?

I can't subscribe to elitist points of view and I can't categorize this any other way.

 

[BrotherGrim]

I don't mean to take anything away from what you accomplish however you do it. As you said, we all would have our own reasons for submitting a brew, and if you should happen to win in my opinion that win is just as valid.

My statements about not submitting somebody else's recipe apply to me and my reasons for entering a competition. As I stated before, I will happily brew somebody else's recipe if it is what I am wanting to brew at that time, I just choose not to enter those beers into a competition. My reasons to enter are to see how my recipes and processes stack up. That is all.

 

[zeg]

My statements about not submitting somebody else's recipe apply to me and my reasons for entering a competition. As I stated before, I will happily brew somebody else's recipe if it is what I am wanting to brew at that time, I just choose not to enter those beers into a competition. My reasons to enter are to see how my recipes and processes stack up. That is all.

I certainly understand these points, and I am quite sympathetic. I generally prefer to generate my own recipes, and I've yet to follow a recipe to the letter. Whether you're interested in entering someone else's recipe in a contest is entirely up to you. However, as a general matter, I still don't see that there is any etiquette problem with using a non-original recipe in a competition (unless, as I said earlier, it's against the contest rules).

This debate is very similar to the endless debates about extract versus all-grain brewing. In that case, some people are interested in doing every step themselves, whereas others are content take various shortcuts or simplifications. Here, some people are interested in designing beers from the ground up, while others are content to focus only on the brewing.

Every brewing contest I'm aware of is a judge, ultimately, of the latter. So are most similar competitions. To run with the analogy with music, I don't recall many bands in the high school Battles of the Bands who were playing original songs---most were covering songs others had written. (And, incidentally, it's only a VERY recent phenomenon that musicians are expected to perform their own compositions.)

To me, the only etiquette question that comes up is when someone asks about where your recipe came from. If it borrowed heavily from someone else's work, then I think one should best be gracious and honest enough to acknowledge that.

 

[Pilgarlic]

Etiquette prescribes generally accepted social conventions that define courteous behaviors. A reasonable way to glean etiquette would be to ask "how do courteous people behave under these circumstances?" When so focused, the etiquette question with respect to "borrowed" recipes for competition is clear. Submitting cloned or borrowed recipes for judging in competition is not generally considered to be discourteous; on the contrary, it's a common, conventional and accepted practice.

Whether one prefers to do it or prefers not to has nothing to do with the etiquette question.

 

[johngault007]

I just got sucked into reading 8 pages of this post and came to this conclusion. I suck at brewing....LOL

One of my standard recipes that I created and make all the time is a little different each time I make it. Not much, but I notice the difference. Of course, I don't have temperature control, and I haven't quite dialed in my setup due to slight changes ever so often.

Back to the post, if I use someone's recipe and modify it, I still like to personally give credit, "It's mine, but I used so-so's original recipe as a guideline/source." Not saying it's right or wrong, just how I am. And I wouldn't be upset sharing a recipe with someone and not getting credit.

 

[dogbar]

As to professional breweries ripping each other off, the whole reason we have "styles" is because someone once made a great beer and dozens of nearby breweries copied it

Even when I try to copy recipes, there's always that one ingredient I have to sub because I can't find it and that extra pound of base malt because my efficiently stubbornly sits at 70%.

I copied your stout recipe recently, Yoop. Should have listened to you on the yeast.

 

[kombat]

To paraphrase Bill Clinton, "it depends on what the definition of 'recipe' is."

The problem I'm having with this discussion is that I think it's silly to try to lay claim to the idea that 8 pounds of Pilsner Malt and 2 oz. of Saaz is some kind of unique formulation for Pilsner Lager. That's obviously silly.

But if your definition of "recipe" includes everything from the spacing of your mill rollers to the fermentation schedule of your 2-step yeast starter, then I can sort of see how there might be some room for personalization there that could be construed as uniquely insightful.

I guess what I'm saying is, if by "recipe" you mean "8 pounds of Pilsner malt mashed at 150 for 60 mins, then a 90 minute boil with a single 60 minute addition of 2 oz. of Saaz", then no, I don't think there's anything "unique" or worthy of protection there. That's the same basic recipe EVERYBODY uses. Even extending it to other styles, there's really very little variation from the established baseline recipes.

But if your idea of a "recipe" includes all the little brewing details, then that might be a little different story.

 

[eelpout]

I'm just a little shocked to see people openly submitting clones and the recipes of other in contests.

Are you entering a recipe formulation contest or a homebrewed beer competition ?

 

[stratslinger]

Interestingly enough, last winter I brewed a double batch with a buddy of mine. We pitched the same amount of the exact same yeast, but he fermented at his place, I fermented at mine. I have a temp controlled fermentation chamber, he does not. The two finished beers were clearly different - and neither of us has anything approaching a BJCP judge's trained pallette.

If two beers out of the same kettle, with the same yeast, came out different due only to different ferment temps, I think it's safe enough to say that the "give 10 brewers the same recipe, get 10 different beers" idea holds water. I see nothing inherently wrong with brewing and entering a third party's recipe in a competition.

 

[user 98891]

To me recipes are frameworks and not absolutes. Let's use cookies as an example. The standard framework for all chocolate chip cookies is on the back of nestle chocolate chip bags. It's pretty much the gold standard for making chocolate chip cookies.

If you follow that recipe, it's pretty hard to make a bad cookie. But the methods you use to execute that cookie will change the cookie. You have all these variables that can't be in the recipe. Is your oven temp right? Is your oven evenly heating? How did you scoop out the batter? What was your cookie sheet made of? How did you cool the cookie? How did you determine when to take the cookie out? etc.

On top of all this, this rock solid base is the perfect foundation to make the cookie you want. Do you want a thinner, flatter, crispier cookie? Let's take out an egg and add some milk. Do you want a chewier cookie? Let's swap the butter for margarine and use 1 egg, 1 egg yolk, and some milk. Do we want more chocolate flavor in our cookies? Let's add some cocoa powder to the batter.

All of this is still basically the same recipe. So this is my approach to brewing, find rock solid frameworks for the style of beer I enjoy (a clone recipe for my favorite commercial example works here) then modify it to bring out the traits I enjoy most.

 

[Krovitz]

I got a question I think is related to recipe etiquette.

Recently, I was pm'ed for my only 1st place recipe. My girlfriend picked out all the ingredients while I just figured out our process. I asked her if she minded giving out the recipe and, to my surprise, she was adamantly opposed to it. I told her he was an HBTer. No. I said we've brewed HBT recipes. She said they chose to post those. I said he's from Memphis, and not part of our local homebrew competition in Mass. No!

I truly believe everyone in this community stands on the shoulders of giants. Sharing of knowledge and ideas is a huge part of homebrewing and makes us all better brewers. She wants her secret recipe.

I've been ignoring the guy. I'm obviously not going to lie to my gf and give him the recipe but maybe there's a compromise. What should I do? How do you guys feel about posting recipes for the world to see?

 

[Pilgarlic]

I got a question I think is related to recipe etiquette.

Recently, I was pm'ed for my only 1st place recipe. My girlfriend picked out all the ingredients while I just figured out our process. I asked her if she minded giving out the recipe and, to my surprise, she was adamantly opposed to it. I told her he was an HBTer. No. I said we've brewed HBT recipes. She said they chose to post those. I said he's from Memphis, and not part of our local homebrew competition in Mass. No!

I truly believe everyone in this community stands on the shoulders of giants. Sharing of knowledge and ideas is a huge part of homebrewing and makes us all better brewers. She wants her secret recipe.

I've been ignoring the guy. I'm obviously not going to lie to my gf and give him the recipe but maybe there's a compromise. What should I do? How do you guys feel about posting recipes for the world to see?

It's entirely your choice. My only observation would be that with few exceptions the best commercial and homebrewers I know share freely, and it's one of the things I love about our culture.

 

[bobbrewedit]

While I agree that sharing is important...its not worth pissing off your other half. Keeping her interested in recipes and brewing would be more of a priority to me than sharing a recipe with others. There are a million recipes out there and as Rev mentioned several times, creating them is half the experience.

As for the guy whose PM'ing you, just tell him the recipe is not yours to give...and momma said NO!

 

[Homercidal]

As long as it's not one of mine, I say go for it.

 

[stratslinger]

Agreed with bob - let the guy know the situtation, I'm sure he'll understand. Most of us are more than willing to share recipes, many of us have done so, but we also understand that some folks are less willing to do so and we aren't about to get bent out of shape if we run across one of those. We may, however, get a little bent out of shape over being ignored.

 

[m_stodd]

Well, the recipe isn't hers, all she did was pick out the list of ingredients. Tell your gf that since you figured out the process, you're going to respond and give him the process.

A list of ingredients is honestly next to meaningless, it's like listing all the NFL teams on Sunday night but not giving any scores.
====================
Back to the original subject. I would enter someone else's recipe into a competition before I entered my own, I actually have a beer going right now that I'm planning on doing it with. As a brewing noob, it's hard for me to imagine that I'll make a recipe better than some of the seasoned veterans on this site, so I'm not going to try to yet. Plus, if I win, I can say "Hey BrewerXXX, you're recipe got me 1st place, you're super awesome" at which time we exchange internet high-fives.

If I were to post a recipe on this forum, it would be because I'm proud of it, think it's awesome, and want others to try is and tell me how awesome it is.

To the subject of a pro using my recipe for profit, that would be flipping awesome. Imitation truly is the most sincere form of flattery.

And to the point of pro breweries 'ripping off' other pro breweries. Who cares? If breweries work together so that they both have awesome recipes, then everyone wins. If a brewery is secretive and others try to rip them off, you've got the three 'i's: The innovators, the imitators, and the idiots. If the innovator is worth anything, they'll innovate again if the imitators take any of their market share.

 

[Rev2010]

A list of ingredients is honestly next to meaningless

I still cannot understand this dismissive mentality. How on Earth can you say the list of ingredients is meaningless!? That is the equivalent of saying the ingredients themselves are meaningless. I mean, it's 2-row malt right? Who cares what brand it is. It's crystal malt right, so who cares what company it's from?

If a recipe has the exact same grain bill but exchanges Weyermann Pilsner for Belgian Pilsner there will be a flavor difference and different end result. If the ingredient list of a Pumpkin Ale calls for 1/2 tsp of Pumpkin Pie spice and another calls for 2 tbsp's there will be a huge difference.

If a recipe says to use 8lbs of Rahr 2-row, 1lb of Caramel 60, mash at 149, and to use Wyeast 1056 and ferment at 66 degrees it will be wildly different from a beer who's recipe says to use 7lbs of Briess 2-row, .75lb of Caramel 40, and .25lb of Special B, mash at 154, and to use Wyeast 1968 and to ferment at 62 degrees.

Now before anyone says most recipes don't indicate which brand of malt to use fair enough, but the balance of those ingredients, the mash temp, and fermentation temp, still makes a big difference. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills (off handed Zoolander reference ).


Rev.

 

[malweth]

Another point:
Every recipe needs to be tweaked at least a little. I've never bought hops that had the AA% given in the recipe. At what point is it enough of a change? I adjust for bitterness. I substitute ingredients (especially at the LHBS where some things are impossible to get).

At what point is it mine?

I personally don't consider a recipe to be mine unless I entered everything (from scratch) in BeerSmith. (The beer itself is always mine).

 

[m_stodd]

I still cannot understand this dismissive mentality. How on Earth can you say the list of ingredients is meaningless!? That is the equivalent of saying the ingredients themselves are meaningless. I mean, it's 2-row malt right? Who cares what brand it is. It's crystal malt right, so who cares what company it's from?

If a recipe has the exact same grain bill but exchanges Weyermann Pilsner for Belgian Pilsner there will be a flavor difference and different end result. If the ingredient list of a Pumpkin Ale calls for 1/2 tsp of Pumpkin Pie spice and another calls for 2 tbsp's there will be a huge difference.

If a recipe says to use 8lbs of Rahr 2-row, 1lb of Caramel 60, mash at 149, and to use Wyeast 1056 and ferment at 66 degrees it will be wildly different from a beer who's recipe says to use 7lbs of Briess 2-row, .75lb of Caramel 40, and .25lb of Special B, mash at 154, and to use Wyeast 1968 and to ferment at 62 degrees.

Now before anyone says most recipes don't indicate which brand of malt to use fair enough, but the balance of those ingredients, the mash temp, and fermentation temp, still makes a big difference. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills (off handed Zoolander reference ).


Rev.

I don't think I was clear. The girlfriend picked out a bunch of ingredients, then the boyfriend figure out how to make an award winning beer from them, perhaps even not using all of some ingredients. The boyfriend calculated temperatures and volumes, when to add certain amounts of hops, chilling, fermentation temperature, clarification, packaging... In the context of someone wanting the recipe, the girlfriend shouldn't have even half of the say IMO, the boyfriend did all the hard work.

It's next to meaningless in that even if he was given a different bunch of ingredients, I bet he could still make an award winning beer.

 

[Yooper]

How do you guys feel about posting recipes for the world to see?

I have no problem sharing any and all of my recipes, whether posted or not in the recipe database. I don't understand why anybody would want it "secret", but if she does that's her choice.

The funny thing? I can drink a beer and pick out the ingredients. So, all I'd have to do to get your recipe is take a sip.

I was at a Homebrew club meeting on Saturday, and I never go to club meetings because they are over an hour drive away. But this was at a friend's brewery, and he's the only Nanobrewery in Wisconsin so I thought it would be fun. It was!

He brought out a beer and said, "What are my unique ingredients in this beer" I took a sip, and said, "Special B, and German Munich malt". His mouth fell open and he said "ding, ding, ding!"

Not everybody can do that, but sometimes just brewing for years and years (and drinking plenty of good beers for years and years) really helps with recipe formulation.

You can go to many commercial beer websites and they list their ingredients. Maybe not the actual recipe, but it'll say, "Klages two-row, Munich malt, crystal 40L along with 50 IBUs. Hops are citra, horizon, and centennial". If they have no fear about sharing their ingredients, why should you?!?

Beer has four ingredients- malt, yeast, hops, water. Nothing really too unique about that.

Here's something to think about. I can give you a recipe, and even tell you how to do it. But I can guarantee that your beer will NOT taste like mine. It might not even be all that similar, depending on the techniques. That's why some "clone recipes" don't even look like the original beer, but I'll be darned if they don't taste an awful lot like the original. And vice versa! I've had some spot on clone recipes made by other people and their beer isn't even close.

It's really implementation that makes a beer. I've had enough bad beers submitted to me in competitions to realize that. Great recipe + mediocre brewer= bad beer. Everytime.

 

[dogbar]

I got a question I think is related to recipe etiquette.

Recently, I was pm'ed for my only 1st place recipe. My girlfriend picked out all the ingredients while I just figured out our process. I asked her if she minded giving out the recipe and, to my surprise, she was adamantly opposed to it. I told her he was an HBTer. No. I said we've brewed HBT recipes. She said they chose to post those. I said he's from Memphis, and not part of our local homebrew competition in Mass. No!

I truly believe everyone in this community stands on the shoulders of giants. Sharing of knowledge and ideas is a huge part of homebrewing and makes us all better brewers. She wants her secret recipe.

I've been ignoring the guy. I'm obviously not going to lie to my gf and give him the recipe but maybe there's a compromise. What should I do? How do you guys feel about posting recipes for the world to see?

Half pound wheat malt, half pound C-40, half pound munich, half pound Victory, three pounds MO, three pounds 2-row, mash at 152, top up to gravity with 2# DME. Use 0.5oz each of Citra and Amarillo in four additions at FWH, 20, 10 and flame out. Ferment with Nottingham.

How close did I get?