Recipe Etiquette

[pwkblue]

I'm curious to hear the general thoughts on "recipe etiquette". A recipe represents the effort and creativity of the author. Clearly if it has been posted in a public forum there is no reason not to use them...I am still a rookie, but I find it more satisfying to put my own twist on each recipe.

I guess the real question is recipe etiquette for contests. I see comments suggesting people are submitting clones, and direct copies of recipes in contests. This seems odd?? I agree that the "recipe" is only part of the equation...execution is still required.

For the record: I love the recipe database! I appreciate the time, effort, and knowledge reflected. Thank you to all who have submitted!

 

[neosapien]

my cake is flour sugar eggs and chocolate. i bake it at x degrees for y minutes. you think it's awesome. now you have the recipe. make your cake taste exactly like mine.

same thing.

i thought it was odd at first too.

 

[Yooper]

am still a rookie, but I find it more satisfying to put my own twist on each recipe.

And that's great!

I'm more of a perfectionist, and I am always looking for the perfect beer of a style I'm making. If I'm making a Bohemian Pilsner, for example, I'll try my best to use soft water (RO) water, and Weyermann's pilsner malt, and the proper yeast along with a triple decoction. In that scenario, my own twist on the recipe wouldn't improve it at all, so I go with a pretty standard approach.

I don't think either way is wrong. It's just what each brewer wants to do with their beer.

I think a great way to learn about ingredients and what they bring to the table is to brew alot, and to brew standard recipes. It's hard as a new brewer to know what biscuit malt, amber malt, crystal malt and brown malt bring to a recipe and if they use them all then it's hard to pick out what is going on with the beer.

But I agree that recipes can be just guidelines, just like cooking, for people with a little experience.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

It's all part of the homebrewing community in my opinion. For some people with some recipes they have their secrets. On the other end....Avery has a lot of their recipes posted on their site down to the percentage of each malt to use. People are proud of their work and they like to share it with the world. I may not be able to share a beer with you, but I can give you a recipe for that beer and you can enjoy a whole batch of it. As for tweaking recipes, you just have to be careful how you do it. Most people have already made it several different ways before settling with the recipe you see.

 

[Rev2010]

Not fully sure what you're getting at pwkblue. I mean, I too tweak recipes to make them mine, I've not once used a recipe I found online just straight up, but I do use strict guidelines if I'm trying to achieve something. For example, I did an English Ale recently that was meant to be a heck of a lot like Fuller's London Pride, but I didn't want a straight up clone so I used the info I could find and tweaked it ever so slightly as to get it very close but still somewhat different. I used their posted hop bill but one hop was out of stock so I used a substitute hop. I tasted the hydrometer sample at bottling time and it smelled and tasted absolutely amazing.... but I have to give credit to Fuller's (for posting their recipe) and others that made clones and similar recipes, it got me in a good ballpark. However, if I had someone visiting whom I knew loved Fuller's London Pride I would certainly consider a straight up clone recipe.

I've only posted two recipes here and none are in the recipe database but were rather posted in threads. My extract Weizenbock, even though I now do AG, still stands as one of my most hands down amazing beers, so I shared the recipe. If someone wanted a sure fire awesome Weizenbock they can use my recipe and be assured it will be awesome - because I've brewed it several times, shared it with many people, and each time it was amazing and was told how great it is. That's an instance where someone might consider using my recipe straight up. If they want they can certainly tweak it to their liking but it might be hit or miss... not something some might want to chance if their Weizenbock loving relative from Deutschland is visiting in a few weeks and wants to taste one of "your" beers.

The second recipe I posted for someone wanting a good Belgian Wit recipe. I posted it and the person brewed it but is as the nature of the internet and time I never heard back how it came out. So all in all when I'm trying new things I like to work out my own recipe but I myself have done many recipes from NorthernBrewer and others just to try something new and be assured it will be good. From there I might analyze what could be improved upon and make some small changes for the next batch.

Brewing is about experimenting and also making great beer. Sometime experimenting doesn't create a great beer and using a sure fire recipe would've done a better job. It's up to you to choose which and when Overall though, in reference to what you'd said... I personally would NEVER EVER enter someone else's recipe in a competition no matter how great it is because even though I made it I didn't think it. Just not my style honestly.


Rev.

 

[pwkblue]

It's all part of the homebrewing community in my opinion. For some people with some recipes they have their secrets. On the other end....Avery has a lot of their recipes posted on their site down to the percentage of each malt to use. People are proud of their work and they like to share it with the world. I may not be able to share a beer with you, but I can give you a recipe for that beer and you can enjoy a whole batch of it. As for tweaking recipes, you just have to be careful how you do it. Most people have already made it several different ways before settling with the recipe you see.

I agree...and often the feedback is documented in the thread. To me it is just more fun to make something my own. As an example: BM's Centennial Blonde recipe might be the most commented on recipe I've seen. I was looking for a Pale Ale instead of a blonde....changed Vienna to Munich and bumped the hops slightly...pretty much the same, but totally different. I liked it so much that I decided to brew the BM's accurate recipe as well..currently in primary.

 

[hercher]

My thought is that it really doesn't matter where the recipe comes from. Who executed the beer? You did. You could take the recipe for Dogfish 120 or Pliny the Elder or Bud light, but your beer would turn out every so slightly different.

So if you find a recipe online, in a book, or borrow it from a friend, the beer is still yours. Now if you break into my house and steal my recipe book, we have a problem....

In all seriousness, I don't consider recipes sacrosanct. I've always shared mine with anyone who asks -- its all about the execution.

 

[pwkblue]

Not fully sure what you're getting at pwkblue....

I personally would NEVER EVER enter someone else's recipe in a competition no matter how great it is because even though I made it I didn't think it. Just not my style honestly.


Rev.

I think you got it exactly right!

I LOVE the assistance and knowledge sharing of the recipes posted. I don't see anything at all wrong with using recipes directly...or tweaked. Quite honestly I probably wouldn't be making beer still....if I was just making "kits" from the LHBS....so the recipe and knowledge sharing is HUGE.

I'm just a little shocked to see people openly submitting clones and the recipes of other in contests.

 

[IffyG]

I don't understand what the hang up on this issue is. IMO, the recipe is the smallest contribution to the overall beer. The process you implement is far more important than any recipe will ever be. Give ten people the same recipe and you will end up with ten similar, yet distinct beers.

 

[Rev2010]

I don't understand what the hang up on this issue is. IMO, the recipe is the smallest contribution to the overall beer. The process you implement is far more important than any recipe will ever be. Give ten people the same recipe and you will end up with ten similar, yet distinct beers.

I don't agree with this mentality at all. You ask ten people to make an Amber Ale from scratch and you will get wildly different results from those people. You ask 10 people to make an amber ale with the exact same grain bill and mash temps and you will get slightly different beers but all rather similar in taste.

Beer making is waaay more than process. I guess I might be amongst the few in this belief because many make the claim of how different the same exact recipe would come out among different brewers but I personally feel that recipe formulation is an art in and of itself. Any new AG brewer can make an Amber Ale following a recipe having no idea whatsoever the difference in taste between C40, C60, C80, Belgian Special B, etc. A recipe is easy to follow which is why it's easy for anyone to make a good cake.

Now, before those of you chime in saying what makes the difference between a great cake and a good cake is the process I will say this... take a person that is well familiar with making great cakes off of recipes and a cake chef that is well familiar with all the ingredients and makes their own formulated cake. There's a reason there are chef's and Iron Chef's.


Rev.

 

[bobbrewedit]

While I would disagree that the recipe is the smallest part of making good beer, I will say that brewers methods and equipment vary sooo much, that it would be very difficult to have two separate brewers make beers that taste the same off of the same recipe. "They will vary slightly" is a huge understatement IMHO.

 

[IffyG]

I personally feel that recipe formulation is an art in and of itself.

I don't disagree with you, it takes great skill to perfect a recipe. However if you take that recipe and subject it to different processes, different fermentation conditions, different water you will end up with dramatically different beer.

I'll admit that my initial statement regarding the contribution of a recipe to the finished beer was hyperbole, but it certainly doesn't change the fact that process plays a huge role in the finished beer.

 

[Rev2010]

However if you take that recipe and subject it to different processes, different fermentation conditions, different water you will end up with dramatically different beer.

...but it certainly doesn't change the fact that process plays a huge role in the finished beer.

It surely does play a huge role, as does water or mash PH which typically isn't included in most recipes. My point though is if you give a recipe, mash temp, and fermentation temp and all those listed variables are followed exactly then outside of wildly varying water profiles most results will be within a pretty similar ball park. Certain beers require really specific water profiles, like certain Pilsners for example. But a good majority of beers shoot for average PH ranges. If that is within limits and people follow the recipe, get the mash temps quite accurate, and ferment at the recipe's temp then it will be really close in taste with only a smaller variable from processes that will affect the taste. This is why breweries can reproduce the process and repeat the beer over and over again with only small variables (outside of the big wigs that have the money and tech to keep things 99% consistent).


Rev.

 

[bobbrewedit]

If that is within limits and people follow the recipe, get the mash temps quite accurate, and ferment at the recipe's temp

Rev.

The obvious problem here is that people don't. Whether or not the variance comes from process or equipment, most use the "there, that's close" approach.

 

[naiek]

It's a brewing contest, not a recipe contest.

 

[Rev2010]

The obvious problem here is that people don't. Whether or not the variance comes from process or equipment, most use the "there, that's close" approach.

But see, that's a variable that is outside the recipe. I'll go back to the cake analogy, if someone is baking an Apple Pie following a recipe that says to use 2 tbsp of Apple pie spice and they use 1, and the recipe calls for 1lb of dark brown sugar and they use 1lb of light brown sugar (because that's all that was available or all they had) and it was listed to bake at 425 for 2 hours and they baked at 375 for 90 minutes - well then of course there will be a difference.

But I think any of us on here with enough experience are able to hit and maintain a mash temp, get the grain bill right, know their efficiency and tweak the recipe to compensate, and ferment at the right temps. If any of us can't do this within a small margin of error than I'd say those amongst us that can't still haven't worked out their systems and processes fully yet. Not that there's anything wrong with that of course, but once one gets experienced enough most of us can manage to hit the numbers and hold the temps and all that. Any variables after that, like say fermentation temp swings due to weather conditions, power loss, etc, are unforseen variables which will no doubt expectedly lead to a change from the intended outcome


Rev.

 

[Rev2010]

It's a brewing contest, not a recipe contest.

Brewing includes a recipe does it not? Couldn't people just buy a keg and bottle popular beers and submit them? Somehow I think the judges might say, "Ummm... this tastes EXACTLY like a Budweiser (or Hoegaarden, or insert a beer name here ____).


Rev.

 

[naiek]

Couldn't people just buy a keg and bottle popular beers and submit them?Rev.

That isn't your ability to brew being judged, that is a commercial brewers ability being judge. In a contest it is your ability that is being judged, not the recipe, in so far as the brew adheres to style guidelines

 

[IffyG]

It surely does play a huge role, as does water or mash PH which typically isn't included in most recipes. My point though is if you give a recipe, mash temp, and fermentation temp and all those listed variables are followed exactly then outside of wildly varying water profiles most results will be within a pretty similar ball park. Certain beers require really specific water profiles, like certain Pilsners for example. But a good majority of beers shoot for average PH ranges. If that is within limits and people follow the recipe, get the mash temps quite accurate, and ferment at the recipe's temp then it will be really close in taste with only a smaller variable from processes that will affect the taste. .


Rev.

Have you ever listened to any of the Can You Brew it podcasts on the Brewing Network? They often get a near complete recipe from a brewery and fail to come close to the beer they are attempting to clone. I'd say that argues against your assertion that process makes a minimal contribution to the final outcome.

 

[Rev2010]

That isn't your ability to brew being judged, that is a commercial brewers ability being judge. In a contest it is your ability that is being judged, not the recipe, in so far as the brew adheres to style guidelines

No, you're still missing the point. A brew consists of a recipe and your brewing of it (and all the variables included obviously). If you have the best brewing process nailed down and have a sucky recipe with grains that conflict rather than compliment and enhance one another than you will still fail.

Why is this so outlandish?


Rev.

 

[Rev2010]

Have you ever listened to any of the Can You Brew it podcasts on the Brewing Network? They often get a near complete recipe from a brewery and fail to come close to the beer they are attempting to clone. I'd say that argues against your assertion that process makes a minimal contribution to the final outcome.

I haven't and can't explain why but I will offer some possible reasons.

1. Breweries will often simplify their ingredients. They'll say 7lbs of Pilsner malt, but they won't say *which* Pilsner malt they are using. They'll do the same with some hops that have US, UK, and German variants, they just generalize which type they use.

2. They may generalize or completely omit which exact strain of yeast they use. They might simply say American Ale yeast when that can mean any one of several variants.

3. They almost NEVER outline their pitching rates.

4. They also rarely ever mention their fermentation temps or generalize those as well. Many of them ferment/condition at several temperature ranges.

Look, I'm not in any way saying process has little importance, of course it does. I'm merely saying I personally believe a lot of people are severely downplaying the importance of recipe formulation. If recipe formulation was the least important I doubt Ray Daniels would've bothered writing Designing Great Beers. Professional breweries sell a product. Giving away the 100% exact way to reproduce their product seems illogical. Giving away general information to get close appears admirable to the homebrewing community.


Rev.

 

[naiek]

I wasn't downplaying the importance of a sound recipe, I was asserting my opinion that the OP shouldn't feel bad for submitting a beer that they brewed using an others recipe into a contest

 

[Hop_Hero]

It depends on the brewer. The super competitive competition brewers i know will be polite and give the basics about their recipes but wont give their secrets. The average hobby home brewer will give you a minute by minute brew day brew schedule

 

[zeg]

I agree with the "brewing not recipe" sentiment, but it's important to understand the context. Obviously the recipe is an important piece, but it's the smaller of the two. Given a style, there are various recipes that can meet its guidelines, but they really don't vary that widely. A good brewer can't rescue a profoundly terrible recipe, but a perfect recipe isn't going to help a careless brewer produce a better beer than a great brewer with a fair one.

With respect to etiquette, I think it's important to be honest about your sources. I've got a beer that is based on one of Yooper's recipes, except that I swapped out the malt, the hops, the yeast, and converted it to PM. But I developed it directly from hers, keeping the specialty malts and the proportions. So it doesn't feel right not to give credit. The first beer I brewed was "my" recipe, because I put it together based on guidelines after reading a bunch of books. Sure, it's almost identical to one of Papazian's books, but anyone asked to make a simple recipe for an extract ordinary bitter would give you the same recipe. In this case, I worked out the numbers myself, so I'm not going to bother crediting everyone who has written down a similar recipe.

I wouldn't worry about that if it came time to submit it to a contest, though. It's, at least partially, her recipe, but it's unquestionably my beer. If you're entering a pie in the state fair, you're not required to have your own secret trick, it just comes down to results.

 

[Rev2010]

I wasn't downplaying the importance of a sound recipe, I was asserting my opinion that the OP shouldn't feel bad for submitting a beer that they brewed using an others recipe into a contest

The OP agrees with me actually on the point of submitting someone else's recipe in a competition. I stand by my opinion but obviously people can do what they want and any recipe shared with the community can be considered open source. I personally couldn't pat myself on the back for winning a comp with a recipe I used 100% unchanged I got from someone's post online, I just couldn't. I didn't **design** the beer I merely brewed it following their instructions. I simply could not call it my own and feel proud winning a comp. For those that can, go for it, who am I to judge. I can of course enjoy it however and that is the point IMO, not to try to win comps.

My wife had something to say on this... ask someone who has no experience with a specific beer type to brew a beer of that style. With no information whatsoever that won't come anywhere close to that style without a recipe to get them in the ballpark no matter how awesome their process. They still need to know a general information about what the style entails! If someone has no idea what a Stout is and has never tried one how are they going to make anything anywhere near a stout just based on their system and processes? They won't. But take a noob extract or AG brewer and give them a recipe with all the instructions of what grains or extract to use, what yeast to use, what temps to ferment at, etc then they can make a stout. The recipe is a lot more important than most make it out to be and I still stand by that.


Rev.

 

[Rev2010]

Oh, one last point I wanted to make before hitting the sack... if recipe isn't as important as process then why does Coca~Cola, Pepsi, KFC, etc so secretly guard their recipes? Why not release them because due to the process they can't truly be replicated? Because the recipe is the most important stepping stone to reproduction.


Rev.

 

[zeg]

Oh, one last point I wanted to make before hitting the sack... if recipe isn't as important as process then why does Coca~Cola, Pepsi, KFC, etc so secretly guard their recipes? Why not release them because due to the process they can't truly be replicated? Because the recipe is the most important stepping stone to reproduction.

Why?

Marketing. That's why.

 

[Rev2010]

If you're entering a pie in the state fair, you're not required to have your own secret trick, it just comes down to results.

That's the thing though... would you personally feel extremely accomplished winning brewing contests following someone else's recipe and instructions 100%?

I know I wouldn't....


Rev.

 

[naiek]

That's the thing though... would you personally feel extremely accomplished winning brewing contests following someone else's recipe and instructions 100%?

I know I wouldn't....


Rev.

How much would you have to change it to feel accomplished?

 

[Rev2010]

Why?

Marketing. That's why.

Marketing? Really?? No, not at all in this case. It's because NOBODY'S chicken tastes like KFC, none. RC Cola doesn't taste like Coke neither does Pepsi, and while Pepsi markets like crazy Coca Cola is still the reigning king. Many try to imitate KFC and Coke but none ever become more popular and it has nothing to do with marketing in this regard but rather the taste of the product. But yes, in some instances like Bud and Coors marketing, along with lowest cost, reigns.


Rev.