Ready to bottle my bock. Need some reassurances.

[Bauzer]

So I'm sanitizing my bottles as we speak, and I was thinking about bottling today, but I've never lager-ed before and I wanted to check a few thing with you guys before I go ahead.
I turned off the ferment chamber last night, as I figured that it would be better to bring up the temperature so it would be closer to what bottling temp would be. Plus I figure it would be closer to what the priming sugar temp would be, once cooled.

does this all sound about right? Current temp is 13C/55F, it was lagering at 1-2C/33-35F

I thought it might raise a bit closer to room temp, say 18-20C/64-68F but clearly would need a bit more time.

Now second thoughts make me wonder if I should be doing any of this, and really it should be cold when im bottling.. not that it would be cold when carbing, it would be room temp.

So ya, you lagering pro's, let me know if something sounds amiss. I'm pretty stoked about this Bock, and I don't want to mess it up.

I have also had issues with Carbing in the past with other beers. Planning on a 2.5 vols target, and what I'm seeing is I should aim for 2.7oz of priming sugar, which sounds to me like a good number. 2 sites have given me that number so I think its better than what Beersmith was saying at 4oz.. which i have done in the past, and both of those beers were waaaay over carbed. I'm assuming that in the calculator when it asks for temp, its the temp used for the longest period? the 1-2C/33-35F? Not the 1 or 2 days worth of it bringing the temp back up to room temp.

Just looking for some reassurances, and any advice. If there is something glaringly wrong, please let me know!!

 

[Gavin C]

So I'm sanitizing my bottles as we speak, and I was thinking about bottling today, but I've never lager-ed before and I wanted to check a few thing with you guys before I go ahead.
I turned off the ferment chamber last night, as I figured that it would be better to bring up the temperature so it would be closer to what bottling temp would be. Plus I figure it would be closer to what the priming sugar temp would be, once cooled.

does this all sound about right? Current temp is 13C/55F, it was lagering at 1-2C/33-35F

I thought it might raise a bit closer to room temp, say 18-20C/64-68F but clearly would need a bit more time.

Now second thoughts make me wonder if I should be doing any of this, and really it should be cold when im bottling.. not that it would be cold when carbing, it would be room temp.

So ya, you lagering pro's, let me know if something sounds amiss. I'm pretty stoked about this Bock, and I don't want to mess it up.

I have also had issues with Carbing in the past with other beers. Planning on a 2.5 vols target, and what I'm seeing is I should aim for 2.7oz of priming sugar, which sounds to me like a good number. 2 sites have given me that number so I think its better than what Beersmith was saying at 4oz.. which i have done in the past, and both of those beers were waaaay over carbed. I'm assuming that in the calculator when it asks for temp, its the temp used for the longest period? the 1-2C/33-35F? Not the 1 or 2 days worth of it bringing the temp back up to room temp.

Just looking for some reassurances, and any advice. If there is something glaringly wrong, please let me know!!

No need to raise the temp to bottle. All it will do is release CO2 from suspension stirring up trub

Temperature to use in your priming calculations is the warmest temperature the beer was at following complete fermentation.

I bring my lagers up to 68°F at the end of fermentation prior to cold crashing and lagering. 68F would be what I would need to use as my guide.

If you use an incorrect lower temperature (which you seem to be planning) that will tell the calculator that there is more residual CO2 in suspension than there actually is. The calculator will recommend too small a mass of sugar to prime with.

2.7oz of priming sugar for a 5 gallon batch of beer is too low for a lager. It will not get you 2.5 volumes. (perhaps your volume is less)

For lagers I would be aiming for 2.8-3.0 volumes based on my own preferences. Use the warmest temp after fermentation and you'll be all set.

1oz dextrose/gallon of beer is a reasonable middle of the road that will work for many styles ignoring priming calculators.

Over carbonation with 4oz of priming solution and 5 gallons of beer speaks to other more likely causes of the over carbonation you experienced. Not a priming problem unless it was inadequately homogenized.

Also no need to allow priming solution to cool. Add it to the bottling bucket hot. Racking the beer onto it will cool it in seconds with no adverse consequences. Cooling it does no harm, it's just not needed.

 

[Bauzer]

Thanks for responding.

I will toss it back in the chamber now then, and get it back down to keep that CO2 in suspension. Will do as you mention and transfer cold, and leave the sugar solution hot.

Your numbers are making me a tad paranoid. I'm curious what you thoughts on possible issues with over carbing would be.

I did do a diacetyl rest at 68F but I think I did it too late to really have it take proper effect. Regardless, it would be the highest temp it ever was, and use that in my calculations.

New results are pointing to about 4.4/4.8oz of priming sugar... makes me feel a tad uncomfortable...

 

[Gavin C]

Thanks for responding.

I will toss it back in the chamber now then, and get it back down to keep that CO2 in suspension. Will do as you mention and transfer cold, and leave the sugar solution hot.

Your numbers are making me a tad paranoid. I'm curious what you thoughts on possible issues with over carbing would be.

I did do a diacetyl rest at 68F but I think I did it too late to really have it take proper effect. Regardless, it would be the highest temp it ever was, and use that in my calculations.

New results are pointing to about 4.4/4.8oz of priming sugar... makes me feel a tad uncomfortable...

4-5 oz is reasonable for a 5 gallon batch. I would have no concerns. I'd probably go a bit higher if bottling. Priming a keg will take less sugar if going that route.

Causes of overcarbonation include

• Fermentation was not complete at bottling
• Infection
• Over priming
• Inadequate homogenization of primer and beer (some over carbed some under carbed)

If the beer has already warmed up there is no need to rechill it. Just the bubbling out of CO2 in the beer can upset the trub. If the beer has warmed that has either already happened or was not going to happen given the duration the beer spent at 68F.

The CO2 wont go back in solution after the beer has warmed. It's effectively a 1 way street in that respect.

 

[estricklin]

I agree with everything stated above. No need to worry about what the temp of the beer or priming sugar is when you bottle. It is a good idea to let your lagers come up to room temp sometime during the process, just to help make sure the fermentation is complete. I usually do it before lagering, but after is fine too, it's probably really not necessary.

I would aim for about 2.5 volumes of C02. Measure the amount of beer your bottling accurately, 4.5 gallons vs. 5.5 gallons, there is a difference. It's almost always going to come out to 1 oz of corn sugar / gallon though. I use table sugar because it's cheaper and I always have it on hand, with table sugar I subtract 15% of the total amount by weight of what the calculators say for dextrose.

How long did you ferment the beer?

Congrats on your first lager!

 

[estricklin]

Sorry double post.

 

[TurnipGreen]

I've under carbed a lager by using the lagering temperature and temperature at bottling in the priming sugar calculator. The temperature to use in there is the warmest temp your brew has been.

The co2 leaves the beer but it doesn't go back unless yeast has sugar to make more co2. So use the warmest temp you've had it at.

 

[Bauzer]

Thanks again guys for responding. I'm pretty excited about this bock, as I tested it last night while working on sanitation, and I think its promising.

I did throw it back in the chamber after what you said Gavin, I started thinking about the trub, and how clear it looked when I tested the gravity and I wanted to try and mitigate that. Too bad about the lost CO2 stirring it up, but oh well.

After plugging in the new numbers, I think I am going to go with 4oz. Though I'm not 100% on my exact gal amount. I only have 1 bucket that has a good breakdown on my Gallons. I will be using it for bottling today to see how it is going. I suppose if I grossly miscalculated the gals I thought I'd yield I may have to boil up a bit more sugar.., but be it 4.5 gal or 5 gal, I think I can stomach trying 4oz again, despite my trepidation and experience. You guys have reassured me, so I'm grateful. I had also read something similar that .75oz -1 oz per gal was common scale used. So with this in mind, I can split the difference here if my Gal calculation isn't exact, since I looked at both numbers.

Hmm... I have a feeling that it has to do with not fully fermenting out the sugars. How can I tell that its 100% done?

I've never seen any terms regarding homogenization of the primer and beer before. Does that just refer to the blend/mixture being evenly distributed? If all the bottles are over carbed, I'd suspect that perhaps it was not fully fermented.

 

[Gavin C]

..

I've never seen any terms regarding homogenization of the primer and beer before. Does that just refer to the blend/mixture being evenly distributed? If all the bottles are over carbed, I'd suspect that perhaps it was not fully fermented.

Sorry. That's my bad. I'm a bit long winded at times.

Yes it just means that the priming solution is uniformly mixed with the beer. I avoid using the term mix as many folks equate that with stirring the beer.

I never stir beer/cider when priming it. The swirling motion during racking provides ample mixing of the two together.

• Make priming solution. Bring to a boil. Done
  
• Add Hot priming soln. to bottling bucket
  
• Rack beer into bottling bucket with a swirl caused by the racking hose. This will mix the beer and primer.
  
• Bottle immediately

• Wait 3 weeks
  
• Refrigerate bottles to lager them.

 

[Bauzer]

Gavin, thanks for confirming for me. I had already been following that process in previous beers, so glad to see a bit of confirmation. I've actually only stirred once, but doubt I will ever again.

I suspect my over carbing must be from under fermenting. My last beer was an IIPA, and I didn't make a starter, though planned on it, just forgot/ needed a stir plate. That plus I believe my mash heat was higher than target and it was likely creating not enough simple sugars to eat. There definitely has been a flavor change in it since I first opened my first one.

I wonder what happend with the first one though... perhaps under pitching again... used 1 packet of dry yeast, not hydrated.


This bock, I didn't get a chance to bottle last night, and sadly I'm busy tonight as well. But as I'm researching.. it looks like my Attenuation only hit 69% Which leads me to believe I still have sugars in there that could ferment out and cause over carbing. Is there any chance this could happen? Est Atten was supposed to be about 82% :/ Though thats Beersmith's numbers. Lager X is between 70-76%

If it helps any..

All Grain - used Pilsner step mash, hit temps well.
Target OG:1.073
OG: 1.068
Target FG: 1.012
FG : 1.020
Target %: 8
Actual %: 6.3

Is there a way for me to perceive the possibility that there are too many sugars left in the beer and could cause it to over carb?

 

[estricklin]

If the gravity isn't dropping over the coarse of a few days, it probably is what it is. I give my bigger beers more time just for that reason, especially if I plan to bottle.

 

[Gavin C]

......

Is there a way for me to perceive the possibility that there are too many sugars left in the beer and could cause it to over carb?

No worries mate. Happy to offer what little I have learned. hopefully I'm not steering you wrong.

The number itself for FG is immaterial with regard to carbonation of the beer. It's the stability of the value that is important. Once the yeast have reached the maximal attenuation (depending on a myriad of factors) they are done and the gravity will not lower any further*

Add the simple sugars in the priming solution and it gets metabolized by the yeast, CO2 is produced. When that sugar is gone the yeast return to their crapped out state. Priming won't reinitiate an otherwise complete fermentation.

*Lager yeast will under the right conditions and adequate pitching rate undergo a very slow metabolism at cold lagering temperatures.

This causes a very tiny drop in SG over time.

If there was a very high percentage of poorly fermentable sugars in the beer (high mash temperatures, high stable FG) this could be a contributing factor to over carbonation.

This is one of the trickier nuts to crack if making big lagers and bottling. Shelf stability can become an issue.

I'm only mentioning this tangental fact for thoroughness. It's down the list of possible causes of your over carbonation in previous brews.

 

[Bauzer]

I believe that on my last over carbed beer, that it was my temps that caused issue. I know that I was above my target mash temperatures and was worried about not getting enough of the simple sugars for the yeast. I also under pitched that beer, so I'm sure that contributed as well.

Alright. Hoping that I finally have some time tonight to bottle this sucker finally. I'm glad that Gavin and the rest of the community were able to help me out with some friendly advice.

If I can remember, I'll try and post what happened in the end. Cross your fingers for me.

Cheers!

 

[Bauzer]

Weellllllllllllllllllllllll......

Undercarbed..

It did come out tasting pretty good, but I can see how much better it would be with proper carbing.

I think that the next beer will be okay though. I feel I learned a lot this run though, and thought about all the factors which caused me issues in the past. Next beer I will try following the 1oz per Gal method.

cheers folks!