Re-creating Authentic German beers at home

[Daniel_Colaco]

I'm a german homebrewer, located close to Hamburg.

I got into making more lagers recently, trying to make an excellent pils is my goal right now. It's kind of a tough task as a homebrewer. I'm at version 3 of my pils right now. the 2 previous ones where good, but not quite perfect. Right now I got my hands on the liquid version of the 34/70, straight from the Weihenstephan yeast bank. Att whent down to 82%, the beer is about to be kegged. I'm kinda nervous how it's gonna taste. It was a 95% pilsner malt and 5% chitmalt grist, easy 2-step infusion, 12°P. Fresh 2019 hops of tettnanger and saphir, I bittered with akoya (new hop, to replace perle in the long run) to 40 IBUs.

It all comes together, you can't hide much under a layer of dryhops or hazyness or whatsoever. Yeast, pitching rate and fermentation temperatures are the first and most important things you should focus on at first imo. I pitch at 8-9°C, at 50% att i let the temperatur rise step by step to 12°C, where i let the beer attenuate to the end. A little diacethyl rest follows before I cold crash for 3-4 days.

Pitching rate is key. With dry yeast I use 1g/l wort, liquid I use 2l(starter)/10l of wort.

For darker or more maltier beers decoction mash is the way to go.

This baby right here was Version 2. Good beer, but it was lacking in bitterness and was just a tiny bit too fruity.
But it's possible. I recently tasted a homebrew some dude from south germany sent me. It was a Pils made withe the W120 (Weihenstephan) and it was the best Pils i've had in a while. I will also try to encourage some german dudes, that are better than me in brewing good german lagers, to participate here.View attachment 683650

The standard german lagers made by the big players like Bitburger are not considered "authentic" by people that know beer. These are very good lagers, but not what those beers, especially pilsners, used to be. The IBUs are down, hop aroma is down, they all taste the same. Authentic beers are usually made by old, smaller breweries that still focus on their region, not shooting for the big markets. Talking about Pils here. Most other styles are not made by the big breweries anyways.

What all german breweries do good, even the big ones, is Hefeweizen. There is no Weizen that isn't good. Some are only good, thats the worst you can get.

I'm from Portugal and I've visited Germany several times. I fear I haven't had many of those "authentic" lagers you talk about, but the Hefeweizen... they were absurdly good. I buy them in Portugal often, and I like them, but man, having them on tap in Bavaria is a whole different level... amazing, simply amazing.

 

[couchsending]

The Low Oxygen practices are a place to spend some time reading. It’s often hard to implement everything depending on your system but even some practices will help considerably.

Step Mash, step mash, step mash

Pitch way more yeast than you think, way more!

Ferment cold, pitch colder

Spund or krausen for carbonation

 

[Nate R]

The Low Oxygen practices are a place to spend some time reading. It’s often hard to implement everything depending on your system but even some practices will help considerably.

Step Mash, step mash, step mash

Pitch way more yeast than you think, way more!

Ferment cold, pitch colder

Spund or krausen for carbonation

You say: Ferment cold, pitch colder

Question- let's say i ferment at 55.
What temp do i picth at? What temp should the yeast be at?

I know there are specifics for each sttain, etc. Just looking for general idea
Thanks

 

[couchsending]

Mash in at 131°-135°F, raise immediately for beta rests at 144°F (say 20 minutes) and then at gel temp, say 147°F for 30 or more minutes (this has to be determined by data for the lot of malt,) possibly a short rest at 153°F, a long (30 minute) one at 163°F for completion of alpha activity and glycoprotein synthesis while retaining high fermentability, and finally mash off at 170°F.

What your indicator on the malt COA when it comes to the “gel temp”? The Kolbach index for modification?

Good you give an example of say X number would benefit from X temp?

I’ve seen this mentioned quite a bit and I assume it has to do with modification but I can’t really find any more technical info on what determines the optimum beta temps.

 

[couchsending]

You say: Ferment cold, pitch colder

Question- let's say i ferment at 55.
What temp do i picth at? What temp should the yeast be at?

I know there are specifics for each sttain, etc. Just looking for general idea
Thanks

Yeah that depends on what strain you’re using and how much yeast your pitching. If using enough yeast and something like the liquid forms of 34/70 or 2206 or any of the good cold fermenting yeasts you can pitch at 43 and ferment at 46, max at 48. If you’re using dry yeast or maybe other warm fermenting strains like Augustiner might mean pitch at 50 and ferment at 52.

I’ve been using the Andechs strain a lot lately and have had great luck pitching at 46, setting to 48, setting to 50 on day 2 and raising to 52 for the final 1* plato. Zero diacetyl, drops incredibly clear, very clean at the end of fermentation.

 

[Robert65]

What your indicator on the malt COA when it comes to the “gel temp”? The Kolbach index for modification?

Good you give an example of say X number would benefit from X temp?

I’ve seen this mentioned quite a bit and I assume it has to do with modification but I can’t really find any more technical info on what determines the optimum beta temps.

Gelatinization temperature increases with decreasing Hartong VZ 45°C. So you won't necessarily know the exact gel temp, but can estimate it, and judge whether a particular malt might necessitate adjusting the mash program. Some of Weyermann's malts, for instance, particularly the Barkes, have had higher gelatinization temperatures in recent crop years.

Remember also that gelatinization is not an on/off switch, but happens over a range leading up to the full gelatinization temperature. There is plenty of substrate available to enzymes well below this temperature, and enzyme activation and denaturation is similarly something that occurs well outside the usually stated conditions. So extended mash rests at lower temperatures will contribute lots of highly fermentable extract.

 

[Vale71]

What your indicator on the malt COA when it comes to the “gel temp”?

You won't find that on any COA as there is no standardized test for malt, only for raw unmalted grain.

 

[Broothru]

Lots of good suggestions so far. I enjoy the hell out of German beer styles and have made some very good ones over the years. The low oxygen techniques intrigue me although I have not yet brewed with that methodology. With rare exception most of the German style beers I've tried that were made in the US never lived up to their Old World heritage on my taste buds. There is an elusive profile in good German lagers combining a deceptively rich body with a very clean and slightly dry finish. These qualities are often missing and immediately flag the beer in my mind as "this sure wasn't made in Germany".

A simple recipe with a grist bill of fresh German malts is a good start. German hops or good domestic versions (like the Mt Hood family) are also a must as is a well-prepped pitch of your favorite German yeast strain. The mash schedule is also important in trying to reproduce the "German profile". I'm a long time fan of decoction mashing but the Hochkurz mash program can also produce excellent brew. The temperature differences in these mash styles IMO is one of the big reasons why most of the domestic attempts at German brews never seem to achieve that classic beer profile I find so appealing.

Of course attention to detail in recipe creation and mashing goes hand in hand with the the other steps in brewing the beer from fermentation, aging/lagering, and packaging.

As for commercial examples I'd first check your area to see if there are any bars or restaurants featuring German beer and look for a big selling fresh one on tap. Obviously things are sketchy right now with shutdowns and such but be patient and wait for things to fully open up if there is such an establishment in your area. Other than that I'd look for four packs of 500ml cans of German lagers. I've seen several pils and some dark lagers sold this way from Bitburger, Dinkel Acker, and Kostritzer among others. Maybe not the best German beers but still pretty damned good and the modern cans deliver a better product more often than bottles nowadays.

I'm just not convinced that you'll ever get an "authentic" German beer outside of Germany. Beyond the psycho-babble about "mood, set and setting" being major contributors to human perception and enjoyment, there's more to German beer enjoyment than consumption in a centuries-old Brau Haus, starting with the differences between export and non-export versions of the same beer. I don't know what or why, but believe it to be much more than simply Reinheitsgebot. Perhaps our German brewing friends can weigh in?

Brooo Brother

 

[Robert65]

You won't find that on any COA as there is no standardized test for malt, only for raw unmalted grain.

See post previous to yours. Or just dismiss out of hand information published by a slate of so-called experts from TUM-Weihenstephan.

 

[BruceH]

I'm just not convinced that you'll ever get an "authentic" German beer outside of Germany.

Brooo Brother

The .5 liter cans are an improvement over most of the bottled stuff imo.

I agree with you about it not being the same. I don't usually order a specific brand, just ask for a beer and sample what I get.

While I like Pils I'm also fond of the Bavarian Lagers. I did order a Pils at Ayinger in Munich, of course that resulted in the waiter answering in English to make sure I knew what I was ordering, lol.

I wish I could remember all of the different local beers from the last Germany vacation, we went around the entire country.

 

[Vale71]

See post previous to yours. Or just dismiss out of hand information published by a slate of so-called experts from TUM-Weihenstephan.

I fail to see how a "guesstimate", however educated, constitutes the equivalent of an analytical value such as one you might actually find on a COA, which is the claim I was responding to.

 

[Jeff...]

Ask ten homebrewers one question and get eleven different answers

 

[Big Monk]

I fail to see how a "guesstimate", however educated, constitutes the equivalent of an analytical value such as one you might actually find on a COA, which is the claim I was responding to.

The point is that the Hartong Index shows a rough, inverse correlation to gelatinization temp.

 

[Pappers_]

Great thread. Agree on a ton of the info here. Pitch massive amounts of yeast, cold. One thing I've started doing that makes a difference is to raise the temp towards the end, not just for a d. rest but to eek out the last bit of attenuation from the yeast.

I think you can get excellent German-style beers in the US. The aforementioned Urban Chestnut, Chicago's Dovetail, a small brewery called Hailstorm (who won a GABF gold for their IPA) makes an excellent Bock. And I've had some truly excellent homebrewed examples of the German styles.

 

[couchsending]

New England actually has a wealth of great traditional lager breweries. Places that take the time and have the equipment to make produce unbelievably good lager.

Notch
Jack’s Abbey
Von Trapp
Shilling
Fox Farm
Hill Farmstead
Suarez

Just to name a few

Bierstadt in Denver

Dovetail in Chicago

Wayfinder, Heater Allen in OR

Chuckanut in WA

Live Oak in Austin, TX

And many more.

 

[Nate R]

This may be a bit off topic, but i seem to recall some (countries, regions, companies) pasturize their beer?
Maybe this is old school, or a rumor, or brewery-specific.
But i would think, like with milk and juice, anything pasturized will have a different taste then non.
This would account for the "better taste in person" maybe. Oh, and a months long boat ride in a shippig container. Then months long storage in an uncooled warehouse.

 

[Pappers_]

This may be a bit off topic, but i seem to recall some (countries, regions, companies) pasturize their beer?
Maybe this is old school, or a rumor, or brewery-specific.
But i would think, like with milk and juice, anything pasturized will have a different taste then non.
This would account for the "better taste in person" maybe. Oh, and a months long boat ride in a shippig container. Then months long storage in an uncooled warehouse.

I was vacationing in Ribe Denmark and there was a tiny little brewery - the owners had other day jobs, and I volunteered one day with a handful of others to help with a packaging run. They bottled everything, in bombers, and distributed them via bicycle to the restaurants and bars in this village LOL.

They used a pasteurizer - basically a big stainless steel container that we would put the capped bottles in, close the lid, a big hiss of hot steam would do its work, then we'd empty it. When I expressed some surprised, they said that it was pretty standard (for their area).

 

[doug293cz]

This may be a bit off topic, but i seem to recall some (countries, regions, companies) pasturize their beer?
Maybe this is old school, or a rumor, or brewery-specific.
But i would think, like with milk and juice, anything pasturized will have a different taste then non.
This would account for the "better taste in person" maybe. Oh, and a months long boat ride in a shippig container. Then months long storage in an uncooled warehouse.

Many beers used to be pasteurized, but I doubt many are any more. A while back (1970's?) micro-filters were developed that could remove yeast and other micro-organisms from the beer, eliminating the need for pasteurization, and the damage caused by the extra heating of the finished beer.

The story, as I understand it, is that Coors used to ship unpasteurized beer. They had limited distribution, so that they could insure that the beer was kept cold from brewery to store cooler. They then developed micro-porous ceramic filters that could remove the microbes. This change allowed them to extend their range of distribution, and expand nationally.

As a side hustle, since they had built their own factory to produce the filters, they also got into the business of selling ceramic substrates for electronic packaging. They were a major supplier to my first full time employer, and I had several visits to their operation in Golden, CO. Never got the opportunity to tour the brewery tho.

Brew on

 

[Jeff...]

I've read in a few differnt articles on the internet that pasteurization used to be a thing for export beers. But it's hard to know if true or not - it is the internet after all.

 

[Nate R]

Well, i want to say i recall it as being a sort of law for some- maybe most Eurpoean countries even?
Not sure, but i know any type of pasturezation, even flash, drastically alters taste.
Orange juice and milk come to mind.
I wonder what a NE/hazy would taste like?

 

[Nate R]

Many beers used to be pasteurized, but I doubt many are any more. A while back (1970's?) micro-filters were developed that could remove yeast and other micro-organisms from the beer, eliminating the need for pasteurization, and the damage caused by the extra heating of the finished beer.

The story, as I understand it, is that Coors used to ship unpasteurized beer. They had limited distribution, so that they could insure that the beer was kept cold from brewery to store cooler. They then developed micro-porous ceramic filters that could remove the microbes. This change allowed them to extend their range of distribution, and expand nationally.

As a side hustle, since they had built their own factory to produce the filters, they also got into the business of selling ceramic substrates for electronic packaging. They were a major supplier to my first full time employer, and I had several visits to their operation in Golden, CO. Never got the opportunity to tour the brewery tho.

Brew on

This of coyrse gave rise to the greatest TransAm movie of all time!!

 

[Nate R]

Yeah that depends on what strain you’re using and how much yeast your pitching. If using enough yeast and something like the liquid forms of 34/70 or 2206 or any of the good cold fermenting yeasts you can pitch at 43 and ferment at 46, max at 48. If you’re using dry yeast or maybe other warm fermenting strains like Augustiner might mean pitch at 50 and ferment at 52.

I’ve been using the Andechs strain a lot lately and have had great luck pitching at 46, setting to 48, setting to 50 on day 2 and raising to 52 for the final 1* plato. Zero diacetyl, drops incredibly clear, very clean at the end of fermentation.

A few more questions if it you dont mind... this is kind-of off topic, but i am trying my first Vienna lager, so... maybe on topic?
Anyways- new to lagering.
Q's are numbered.
Dumb noob questoon- #1: do you use a blow off hose for a lager? I have a spike cf5, so no airlock. I have a spunding valve, #2: but is it too soon at first fermenting to spund?

#3: i pitched white labs mexican wlp940. White labs says 50-55. I am pitching at 50. I will keepit there for 2 days, then move to 53 (inkbird, so any temp set swings +/- 1 degree).
3 weeks enough in primary? 4? Should i want close to fg before i move to keg? I plan to lager in keg in my keezer for a few weeks, to.

Thanks all!

 

[Vale71]

Well, i want to say i recall it as being a sort of law for some- maybe most Eurpoean countries even?

No, not mandated anywhere in Europe. The reason being that spoiled beer is not hazardous to your health, it simply won't taste so great, so the choice is left to the brewery.

Milk pasteurization on the other hand is mandatory because of milk being the main vector of tubercolosis infection. That's probably what you were thinking of.

 

[couchsending]

A few more questions if it you dont mind... this is kind-of off topic, but i am trying my first Vienna lager, so... maybe on topic?
Anyways- new to lagering.
Q's are numbered.
Dumb noob questoon- #1: do you use a blow off hose for a lager? I have a spike cf5, so no airlock. I have a spunding valve, #2: but is it too soon at first fermenting to spund?

#3: i pitched white labs mexican wlp940. White labs says 50-55. I am pitching at 50. I will keepit there for 2 days, then move to 53 (inkbird, so any temp set swings +/- 1 degree).
3 weeks enough in primary? 4? Should i want close to fg before i move to keg? I plan to lager in keg in my keezer for a few weeks, to.

Thanks all!

If you pitch enough yeast and oxygenate well you don’t really need more than 10 days max. Beer should be done fermenting in 5-7 days. Do a force ferment test. When you’re .5-1* plato from terminal attach the spunding device.

Leave for 2 more days after terminal if you wish then slowly cool to 40 (2-3*) per day. Leave for a few days at 39/40 then transfer to a keg (you know how to transfer carbed beer right?) then slowing continue cooling to 30* (if you can) and lager for as long as you want.

 

[Nate R]

If you pitch enough yeast and oxygenate well you don’t really need more than 10 days max. Beer should be done fermenting in 5-7 days. Do a force ferment test. When you’re .5-1* plato from terminal attach the spunding device.

Leave for 2 more days after terminal if you wish then slowly cool to 40 (2-3*) per day. Leave for a few days at 39/40 then transfer to a keg (you know how to transfer carbed beer right?) then slowing continue cooling to 30* (if you can) and lager for as long as you want.

Thanks.
Transfer carb beer- have the spunding valve on the "gas in" post of the keg, right? Basically same way of low oxygen transfers (closed transfers) right? I think i need to pressurize the keg first.

Yes my keezer is set to about 28, with a 10 degree variance to save the compressor. So i can keg and let it rest.

Another question- when lagering, does adding CO2 affect it in any way? In other words- say i was force carbing- should i wait a few weeks then hook up c02, or can i hook it up to begin with?
Thanks

Edit- you say 7-10 days... even for a cold lager? I thought fermentation went slolwer due to temp?

 

[couchsending]

Thanks.
Transfer carb beer- have the spunding valve on the "gas in" post of the keg, right? Basically same way of low oxygen transfers (closed transfers) right? I think i need to pressurize the keg first.

Yes my keezer is set to about 28, with a 10 degree variance to save the compressor. So i can keg and let it rest.

Another question- when lagering, does adding CO2 affect it in any way? In other words- say i was force carbing- should i wait a few weeks then hook up c02, or can i hook it up to begin with?
Thanks

Yeah if it’s carbed you need to pressurize the keg to the same pressure as the fermenter. Then very slowly release gas from the keg. If you have the keg spunding valve then yeah set it so you hear a very faint hiss.

If you do everything well you should have pretty close to fully carbed beer. No need to put it on pressure it won’t necessarily hurt anything. Maybe just a few days at first then you don’t really need it.

 

[Jeff...]

A few more questions if it you dont mind... this is kind-of off topic, but i am trying my first Vienna lager, so... maybe on topic?
Anyways- new to lagering.
Q's are numbered.
Dumb noob questoon- #1: do you use a blow off hose for a lager? I have a spike cf5, so no airlock. I have a spunding valve, #2: but is it too soon at first fermenting to spund?

#3: i pitched white labs mexican wlp940. White labs says 50-55. I am pitching at 50. I will keepit there for 2 days, then move to 53 (inkbird, so any temp set swings +/- 1 degree).
3 weeks enough in primary? 4? Should i want close to fg before i move to keg? I plan to lager in keg in my keezer for a few weeks, to.

Thanks all!

I'm a newbie also but do have several dozen lagers under my belt. I pitch a quart liquid started about 48 hours after I got the yeast rolling. It's very active after around 48 hours.

I also ferment at the lower end of the manufacturer's recommended (ideal) range and I pitch the starter into my fermenter from 2 to 5 degrees lower then the lowest ideal temperature and allow it to come up to the lower end of the ideal range.

Depending on the OG, I primary for anywhere from 2 to 6 weeks holding the lower end of the ideal range. Then I take the fementor out of my temperature controled area and allow it to come up to room temperature over the course of 1 week. If I still see bubbles coming out of the air lock, I allow it to continue at room temperature until I don't see a bubble for once ever 90 seconds or longer. I've never needed a blowoff tube with a lager, I leave plenty of headroom and like I said ferment on the lower end of the ideal temperature range.

I then rack, pressurize my keg to 30 PSI and lager @ 34 degrees for many weeks (a minimum of 6 weeks for lower gravity lagers). After I can't stand it anymore... I pull the keg and tap it. I usually get a pint or two of trub from the bottom of the keg, then after that it's clear beer.

Right now I have a Monks Bread more than a Double Bock 1.096 OG that I brewed the beginning of October 2019. it's been in lager since Since Jan 10 2020. It was absolutely delicious when I racked it and it's gravity was 1.016. this is what it looked like coming out of the primary - intense ethenol warming going down and yum.

I probably won't pull the keg from lager until it cools off most likely October or November. So that will be a lager that's at least 1 year old since I brewed it. But with such a high OG and @ 10.76 ABV when I kegged it for lagering, it might be very good by then

 

[Jeff...]

I'm working on switching over to primarily and secondary (Ales) in sanke kegs or sanke to corny (Lagers), so I can easily do closed transfers via CO2. Instead of the traditional plactic buckets, glass carboys & racking cane. I'll still keep my ball lock cornys for severing kegs though because both of my keezers are the perfect sizes for 3 and 6 taps and they are so handy...

I've even taken my 3 tap keezer to wedding receptions, since it's so easy to move around with a hand dolly. Free Ice cold Homebrew on tap, makes everyone happy happy happy

 

[wstumper]

I have yet to go to Germany, but stateside the Urban Chestnut Brewery in St Louis is, in my opion, the closest i have found. Their brewer trained and studied for some time in Germany. As have man others of course.

I highly reccomend a visit here if you can. My in-laws (whom i was visiting) had to drag me out here kicking and screaming. Food was good, too.

Heading to STL later this month! Are you talking about the Forest Park location?

And just to keep on topic... I see they have a brewery in Wolnzach, Germany

 

[Nate R]

Heading to STL later this month! Are you talking about the Forest Park location?

And just to keep on topic... I see they have a brewery in Wolnzach, Germany

SO, they have an "original" location- my in-laws took me there the first time. I suggest their "new" location- I think they call it a beer hall. Self-guided walking tour of the production line & packaging line. Food, too. Sorry I wish I knew the street names- but look for the big community tables and beer hall in the titles on the google.