Raw Vegan brewing.

[teresalgl]

By the time you got starch down to maltose at 100F, it would a disgusting soup of everything that is not beer.

How do you know? Have you tried it? And at this point in the process, we would want wort, not beer.

 

[theveganbrewer]

I talked with a raw juice manufacturer and quizzed them on their pasteurization process. They said they never get it over 40 degrees F and pasteurize with pressure. I know this doesn't help as their equipment sounded complicated.

 

[bottlebomber]

I've been doing some research on this, and I've found the evidence pretty compelling in favor of meat. Grass fad, pasture quality meat, not feed-lot, corn-fed garbage. I think a lot of the paleo/primal stuff is very fad-like, almost cult-like, but some of the research is extremely compelling.

Here's some reading I found interesting: (it's on the internet, it has to be true...)
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread67217.html
http://garytaubes.com/2012/03/science-pseudoscience-nutritional-epidemiology-and-meat/
http://nuclearfuzzgrunge.com/tlcm/

Again, I'm not pushing ideology here, just fostering discussion. I wholly affirm that we, the human race, don't know everything and there is no dietary silver bullet that cures all ails...Adam's curse prevails. And, my respect for you is not contingent upon your dietary choices.

I went through all the links, and they were interesting reads I didn't really see anything that expressly changed my views. I never said that meat was bad for you, I only refuted the idea that being vegetarian was somehow NOT healthy. However there are a lot of really fat and unhealthy meat eaters. I don't know any fat vegetarians, and I know a lot.

The one theme through the articles that I agree with heartily is that nutrition is not well understood. What's healthy for me may not be for you, and so forth. I do know though that many people are unwilling to change their diet and exercise(lack of) routines if it conflicts with their perception of what is comfortable. I say perception because I would be near suicidal if I became significantly overweight, but I know the issue is more complex than that.

I work with some very obese people and it is literally tragic for me to see some of them go through the same cycles every year of hating themselves, trying to diet, losing some weight, being proud, and then relapsing, gaining weight and hating themselves even more than they did before. I will say that from my observation meat is not the culprit here. It's a contributor, but sugar and carbs are by far the main culprit. It's the chips, the chocolate, the donuts. I actually think if some of these guys ate a big filling steak they would end up snacking less and being the better for it.

 

[JordanThomas]

I went through all the links, and they were interesting reads I didn't really see anything that expressly changed my views. I never said that meat was bad for you, I only refuted the idea that being vegetarian was somehow NOT healthy. However there are a lot of really fat and unhealthy meat eaters. I don't know any fat vegetarians, and I know a lot.

The one theme through the articles that I agree with heartily is that nutrition is not well understood. What's healthy for me may not be for you, and so forth. I do know though that many people are unwilling to change their diet and exercise(lack of) routines if it conflicts with their perception of what is comfortable. I say perception because I would be near suicidal if I became significantly overweight, but I know the issue is more complex than that.

I work with some very obese people and it is literally tragic for me to see some of them go through the same cycles every year of hating themselves, trying to diet, losing some weight, being proud, and then relapsing, gaining weight and hating themselves even more than they did before. I will say that from my observation meat is not the culprit here. It's a contributor, but sugar and carbs are by far the main culprit. It's the chips, the chocolate, the donuts. I actually think if some of these guys ate a big filling steak they would end up snacking less and being the better for it.

You ever see Prince Fielder? That dude's a vegan! LOL.

 

[TyTanium]

Agree 100% bottlebomber. Good post.

 

[zzARzz]

Somebody make it happen.

I found this post to be an interesting problem, so I started doing some research on it and came up with a recipe... of sorts. Let me preface this by saying I'm not vegan, I don't follow a raw foods diet, that I'll be the first to admit this recipe sounds really nasty and I will never actually make it, but theoretically it should work. It's for a honey wheat beer that is both vegan and raw food diet compliant. The major problem with this recipe is the original gravity is too low (anything in the 1.040+ range would make it about 8%+ ABV) as well as the final gravity, but without the ability to use real brewing ingredients or processes it's as good as it gets.

Rainbow Moon Beam's Honey Wheat Ale

Size: 5 gal
Type: Extract
OG: 1.033
FG: .994
IBUs: 14.1
ABV: 5.1%

Ingredients

3.5lb Turbinado Sugar
3lb Red Maca Powder
1lb Wheat Germ Powder, Defatted
1lb Agave Nectar, Organic (raw food compliant manufacturing process)
8oz Maltodextrin
1tbsp 52 pH Stabilizer
.25oz Citra hops, whole leaf (12%)
1pk Wyeast Belgian Wheat Yeast (3942) (2L starter would be better)
4oz Priming Sugar

Process

Dechloronate 5 gallons of water and leave 2 gallons in sterilized, sealed containers in refrigerator.

In 3 gallons of cold water, mix in sugar, maca powder, wheat germ, agave nectar, malto dextrin and pH stabilizer. In a 4 gallon brew pot, bring wort to 115F and add Citra hops. Hold at 115F for 1 hour, stirring occassionally.
Strain out wort into fermenting bucket, add the 2 gallons of cold water and pitch yeast when wort reads 70F.

Primary ferment 7 days and rack to secondary for 7-14 days until fermentation has halted. Bottle with 4oz corn based priming sugar.

Note: The only way I could figure to sterilize the wort without boiling would be to perhaps run it through an aquarium UV steilizer hooked to a pump for a few minutes, though this runs the risk of "skunking" it a bit due to UV's reaction with hops. This would of course be done before pitching the yeast.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

So what do you all think? A terrible violation of all that is holy in brewing?

 

[ACbrewer]

I found this post to be an interesting problem, so I started doing some research on it and came up with a recipe... of sorts.

Rainbow Moon Beam's Honey Wheat Ale

So what do you all think? A terrible violation of all that is holy in brewing?

I guess I'm wondering if it is still 'beer' or just 'fermented beverage' At which point I think we are back to wine with spices. A second thought, I'm guessing zzARzz that you checked the ingredients for 'cooking.'

Looks interesting though. And you could you camden tablets for sanitation. Wild yeast/bacteria general doesn't like that.

 

[bottlebomber]

I like it. Personally I wouldn't UV the hop water as I don't see a risk of infection there, so that could be added later. Also you may want to go 2 or 3 hours with that at those low temps. Looks good. Someone would brew this. It should be the OP, for penalty of creating this thread.

 

[ACbrewer]

Someone would brew this. It should be the OP, for penalty of creating this thread.

+1 on that.. no +2

 

[zzARzz]

I guess I'm wondering if it is still 'beer' or just 'fermented beverage' At which point I think we are back to wine with spices. A second thought, I'm guessing zzARzz that you checked the ingredients for 'cooking.'

Looks interesting though. And you could you camden tablets for sanitation. Wild yeast/bacteria general doesn't like that.

I looked for as much information as was available with regards to the ingredients being both vegan and raw food compliant. As far as I can tell all of the ingredients are "safe," though in my internet travels I've come to the conclusion the raw food movement has some speculative claims with regards to the nutritional contents of raw vs. cooked foods.

The main trouble was trying to come up with potential gravities and yield percentages for some of the ingredients. For a couple I just divided the sugar content by the weight of a serving in the nutritional facts panel and multiplied by 100 to come up with a yield, though I'm sure that is likely off by a wide margin due to other carbs that could be turned into fermentables during the "boil" which would affect the numbers.

Obviously since there are a lot of assumptions in my recipe I'm sure an actual attempt at this would come out very different from what my copy of BeerSmith said would happen before it did a "Scanners" thing and its head exploded.

 

[theveganbrewer]

I am very impressed we somehow managed to steer this discussion to an actual recipe. Well done.

 

[zzARzz]

I am very impressed we somehow managed to steer this discussion to an actual recipe. Well done.

My cousin's Vegan and I know how much s%^& they take, so I like to make sure she has something special every Thanksgiving. It may not be my lifestyle, but I'm always sure to be respectful of her's and others'. Besides, a weird problem like a vegan/raw foods brew just gives me an opportunity to learn.

 

[Whattawort]

My cousin's Vegan and I know how much s%^& they take, so I like to make sure she has something special every Thanksgiving. It may not be my lifestyle, but I'm always sure to be respectful of her's and others'. Besides, a weird problem like a vegan/raw foods brew just gives me an opportunity to learn.

A good friend of mine's wife is a vegetarian (ovo/lacto) and it's actually kind of fun to make something that she'd eat that I've never made before. A bit of a crap shoot, but she's a good sport about it and usually gives me honest feedback on it. We still give her a hard time about her being a veggie, but that's only because she gives it right back to us and doesn't get her feelings hurt. Thankfully, she digs my beer so if the food I made is inedible, I can make it up to her with beer. Nothin' wrong with a liquid lunch every now and then.

 

[Bobby_M]

I think I'm missing the point. It's one thing to be very careful that your homebrew doesn't have any animal derivatives (most of us are OK there) but the concept of making it conform to raw vegan seems misplaced. I understand (or think I do), the primary motive to sticking to a raw diet, but unless your cousin strictly adheres due to the concept of harmful effects of heating, I think I'd just say hey, this is completely vegan but the brewing process requires boiling if that bothers you. If you find that it does, offer up a hard cider. I keep at least one caffeine free, sugar free soda in my bev fridge for guests that require that, but I'm not going to brew a 60 calorie near beer for dieting alcoholic guests just because I happen to brew beer.

 

[JordanThomas]

I think I'm missing the point. It's one thing to be very careful that your homebrew doesn't have any animal derivatives (most of us are OK there) but the concept of making it conform to raw vegan seems misplaced. I understand (or think I do), the primary motive to sticking to a raw diet, but unless your cousin strictly adheres due to the concept of harmful effects of heating, I think I'd just say hey, this is completely vegan but the brewing process requires boiling if that bothers you. If you find that it does, offer up a hard cider. I keep at least one caffeine free, sugar free soda in my bev fridge for guests that require that, but I'm not going to brew a 60 calorie near beer for dieting alcoholic guests just because I happen to brew beer.

Yea, I would pretty much agree. But if people want to try, they should. My comment earlier was, why would someone adhering to a raw food diet want to consume alcohol. I thought part of the philosophy was keeping bad stuff out of your body. Unless someone wants to argue that alcohol is good for you...

 

[Yooper]

I like it. Personally I wouldn't UV the hop water as I don't see a risk of infection there, so that could be added later. Also you may want to go 2 or 3 hours with that at those low temps. Looks good. Someone would brew this. It should be the OP, for penalty of creating this thread.

I wonder- would sulfites (campden tabs) but totally out of line for the raw vegan angle? First, they will sanitize the must so infection won't happen (lacto primarily would be a risk), and I use it in my wine. Secondly, the sulfite would dissipate quickly, so it wouldn't actually be "in" the beer(?) after fermentation gets going.

 

[Yooper]

Unless someone wants to argue that alcohol is good for you...

I wouldn't argue that it's good for you- but I would say that it isn't harmful and may offer health benefits in small amounts.

 

[Mongrel]

Another issue that I don't think has been mentioned, might have missed it in the 17 pages, is that commercial hops are kilned at a temperature higher than the raw diet would allow. So, if you want to do this, you're going to have to start growing, and air drying your hops.

 

[zzARzz]

I think I'm missing the point. It's one thing to be very careful that your homebrew doesn't have any animal derivatives (most of us are OK there) but the concept of making it conform to raw vegan seems misplaced. I understand (or think I do), the primary motive to sticking to a raw diet, but unless your cousin strictly adheres due to the concept of harmful effects of heating, I think I'd just say hey, this is completely vegan but the brewing process requires boiling if that bothers you. If you find that it does, offer up a hard cider. I keep at least one caffeine free, sugar free soda in my bev fridge for guests that require that, but I'm not going to brew a 60 calorie near beer for dieting alcoholic guests just because I happen to brew beer.

Nah, my cousin's your average, run-of-the-mill vegan. She drinks beer with the rest of us (and bourbon with me :cross: ) as long as it doesn't have any animal byproducts (like gelatin for fining, white sugar processed with bone char, etc.).

This was more of a thought experiment for me than something I find necessary or something that should even be attempted.

The raw food diet and vegan diet are separate things, so raw foodies may eat meat as long as it isn't cooked (some will, at any rate... and yuck...) and vegans will eat cooked everything as long as it doesn't involve critters. The OP was for a recipe that was both vegan AND raw food diet compliant, which is where the trouble came in for making a beer with both in mind. If it was just vegan it would be easy, as a few have already said on this meandering thread.

 

[afr0byte]

It is a actually simply because honey is an animal product, and vegans don't eat any animal products. But some vegans will eat honey.

I'd, personally, edit that to be "some people that call themselves vegans eat honey"

 

[afr0byte]

Hmm, I fail to see the distinction. Veganism is a lifestyle choice, is it not? The dietary aspect is equally important as the things that are used around the house or worn on the body, aren't they? I wasn't trying to make fun with the sponge statement, rather, make a point. The point being, it seems like a slipperly slope to include everything in the Animal kingdom, because it gets REALLY messy when you have to exclude things like, (maybe a bad example) sponges.

An actual vegan, not someone that simply follows a vegan diet, wouldn't use animal products in clothes or other products (at least as much is possible in our society).

 

[bottlebomber]

I'd, personally, edit that to be "some people that call themselves vegans eat honey"

As a vegetarian who has routinely been offered chicken and fish under the premise that "some vegetarians eat chicken", I heartily support your refinement of my post

 

[afr0byte]

I guess the posts I don't get in this thread (and in the world at large, for that matter) are the ones that think it's funny to say (I'm paraphrasing) "Hurrr, I'm going to go eat something I think vegans will find especially repulsive." I have to assume the intent is to insult vegans as a whole, but I don't know.

 

[bottlebomber]

I guess the posts I don't get in this thread (and in the world at large, for that matter) are the ones that think it's funny to say (I'm paraphrasing) "Hurrr, I'm going to go eat something I think vegans will find especially repulsive." I have to assume the intent is to insult vegans as a whole, but I don't know.

Well, yeah. I guess you could come around with "I hope you get cancer from your charbroiled meat and die!", but why engage lol. It's usually all in good fun. And also usually from fat people

 

[afr0byte]

Well, yeah. I guess you could come around with "I hope you get cancer from your charbroiled meat and die!", but why engage lol. It's usually all in good fun. And also usually from fat people

True, there's no reason to engage. I guess I just don't understand how it's funny to say something similar to what I paraphrased.

 

[theveganbrewer]

True, there's no reason to engage. I guess I just don't understand how it's funny to say something similar to what I paraphrased.

I going to go eat some kale chips :rockin:

 

[JordanThomas]

Well, yeah. I guess you could come around with "I hope you get cancer from your charbroiled meat and die!", but why engage lol. It's usually all in good fun. And also usually from fat people

Hmm... While I agree that people saying "ZOMG JALAPENOS STUFFED WITH SAUSAGE AND CHEESE AND ROLLED IN BACON AND DEEP FRIED IN LARD SO GOOD" is a bit ridiculous and yes, just to make health-conscious people grossed out, labeling people fat without knowing who they are is pretty bad, too. You've said that several times in this thread, which is the only reason I'm pointing it out. Why even stoop to that level?

 

[Halbrust]

Well, yeah. I guess you could come around with "I hope you get cancer from your charbroiled meat and die!", but why engage lol. It's usually all in good fun. And also usually from fat people

I'm a fat meat eater and I have to say that was funny.
True, (maybe a little hurtful), but FUNNY!!!

 

[bottlebomber]

You've said that several times in this thread, which is the only reason I'm pointing it out. Why even stoop to that level?

It may be a little low, especially considering how self conscious people are about their bodies. And I apologize for any hurt feelings. However I will say that out of the thousands of times I've been ridiculed for my diet throughout my life, it had never been by a healthy-figured carnivore. And I know it's because they are projecting/venting their dissatisfaction with how they feel with themselves as a result of their own poor choices on me. The guy who walks up to me at the barbecue with a stick on a plate, always fat. The lady who makes a show out of wrinkling her nose at the salad I'm eating at lunch (which isn't THAT often for gods sake) always fat. So forgive me if I'M a little jaded. It's wasn't easy growing up this way in a redneck community I assure you.

 

[JordanThomas]

It may be a little low, especially considering how self conscious people are about their bodies. And I apologize for any hurt feelings. However I will say that out of the thousands of times I've been ridiculed for my diet throughout my life, it had never been by a healthy-figured carnivore. And I know it's because they are projecting/venting their dissatisfaction with how they feel with themselves as a result of their own poor choices on me. The guy who walks up to me at the barbecue with a stick on a plate, always fat. The lady who makes a show out of wrinkling her nose at the salad I'm eating at lunch (which isn't THAT often for gods sake) always fat. So forgive me if I'M a little jaded. It's wasn't easy growing up this way in a redneck community I assure you.

Well I was berated for using my experience as a device for simply sharing my thoughts on the topic earlier in this thread. I won't do the same to you, because I understand where you're coming from. While I love meat, and eat it daily, I am healthy, perhaps even low in weight. I do, however understand what you mean. Working in an office full of obese people has terrible qualities. I also get the "must be nice to be skinny" comments from overweight coworkers while I eat a burger or tacos, and then proceed to witness these same people consume the same, only in LARGER portions! It all comes down to this, though... Not everyone acts that way.