Beerswimmer
Well-Known Member
What is wayyy too sour? 
Raw Ale / No Boil
- Thread starter squaremile
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A question of perception,I guessWhat is wayyy too sour?
troglodytes
Well-Known Member
If I could produce a citrusy sour in the 3.2pH range like New Belgium's Le Terrior, I would be soooo happy. Mouth puckery goodness!
And if it will be full of dms (which I doubt) you can call it sour almond or pickled corn dog
troglodytes
Well-Known Member
Pickled corn dog sounds like the worse possible flavor combo for a beer!
Seriously, though, I had read (not sure where or how reputable it was) to bring the temp up to 180F to ensure pasturization as the grain in the mash could provide pockets of cooler wort that do not get pasturized. This made sense to me, but looking back now I wish I had planned on a no boil from the start and read MTF before doing so. I would have less DMS and a shorter brew day because my 172F sparge would have been plenty and I could have gone right into the fermenter without getting out my outdoor burner.
Looking at it now, I'm sure there is DMS in my brew, but after six months with a mix fermentation I would think the brett at least would munch it all up. DMS is volitile and goes away/gets consumed in mixed fermentations, correct?
Seriously, though, I had read (not sure where or how reputable it was) to bring the temp up to 180F to ensure pasturization as the grain in the mash could provide pockets of cooler wort that do not get pasturized. This made sense to me, but looking back now I wish I had planned on a no boil from the start and read MTF before doing so. I would have less DMS and a shorter brew day because my 172F sparge would have been plenty and I could have gone right into the fermenter without getting out my outdoor burner.
Looking at it now, I'm sure there is DMS in my brew, but after six months with a mix fermentation I would think the brett at least would munch it all up. DMS is volitile and goes away/gets consumed in mixed fermentations, correct?
Aaron Beers
Well-Known Member
Not reputable.
You can look up "pasteurization time temperature table" on google and get back lots of results. At 145F, the lower end of feasible mash temps, it takes less than 4 minutes to kill sufficient micro organisms in beef to make it safe to eat. Irrelevant of sparging/sparge temps, if you've failed to pasteurize your wort during mash then you've already done something wrong.
Exactly. The wort gets already pasteurised during the mash, only if you have very poor sanitation practice (I had that once, now have a wild brett beer fermenting since 4 months, lesson learned and wild brett beer. Awesome!) during mashout and transfer into the fermenter you would run into troubles. Otherwise you should be fine.
This reheating of the wort is more like a safety belt but isn't necessary if everything else went ok.
troglodytes
Well-Known Member
Looks like everything is going to be good. I just took the first hydrometer reading and its currently sitting at 1.010. It's a very light a clean tasting brew. Tastes like a light crush able saison . I would say the only tartness is my lactic acid addition I did before pitching the lacto, so definitely no sourness yet. No dms, though, either. This is so light there would be no place for the dms to hide if it were there in substantial ppm.
Now for the long aging to see what the final result will become.
Now for the long aging to see what the final result will become.
squaremile
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Hi All, I started this thread a long time ago, and I love that it's still going! In wanted to pass along that Basic Brewing Radio has a new ep dated March 1, 2018 where they compared 3 no boil pale ales. Well worth the listen.
Cool. Thanks for that. I'll have to listen to it. I haven't got around to a raw ale yet, but I'm still considering it. I've got so many other recipes that need to be brewed. Cheers!
bronzdragon
Well-Known Member
You guys are making it hard for this old dog who has been brewing basically the same way for the last 20 years to admit that maybe things can be done differently.
Might have to give it a go.
/cheers
Might have to give it a go.
/cheers
applescrap
Be the ball!
You are no old dog with comments like this. It reminds me of a story with my old golfing partner. He used to refer to people we played with as the old man. I asked him once, I said, you're way older than that guy. He said yeah but that's an old guy, im not. And he was right.You guys are making it hard for this old dog who has been brewing basically the same way for the last 20 years to admit that maybe things can be done differently.
Might have to give it a go.
/cheers
applescrap
Be the ball!
The basic brewing radio was good, but that was extract so not quite the same. I started a thread about boil considerations and no chill. I also e-mailed Marshall from brulosophy in hopes that he will get somebody to test it.
Pretty much a no boil except for the fact that you bring the Wort up to Boiling and then cut Heat. I believe that the time that the beer spends chilling could mimic a boil and would certainly make it easier to add hops because a hop tea would not be needed. Even just brought to boil for a second and the time it takes to chill that will be plenty long enough time to create ibus. It should be all but common knowledge that Whirlpool hops create ibus. I think there's a chance that bringing the Wort to a boil and then cutting Heat could potentially mimic a boil and deal with some of the stability issues. It would provide all the convenience of no boil except for the fact that it just needs brought up to boil. I hope somebody will test this out.
Pretty much a no boil except for the fact that you bring the Wort up to Boiling and then cut Heat. I believe that the time that the beer spends chilling could mimic a boil and would certainly make it easier to add hops because a hop tea would not be needed. Even just brought to boil for a second and the time it takes to chill that will be plenty long enough time to create ibus. It should be all but common knowledge that Whirlpool hops create ibus. I think there's a chance that bringing the Wort to a boil and then cutting Heat could potentially mimic a boil and deal with some of the stability issues. It would provide all the convenience of no boil except for the fact that it just needs brought up to boil. I hope somebody will test this out.
Hi, I recently made my first no boil, no chill brew, a belgian dubbel. It was a definite time saver, I think it will be my go-to technique with most ales and darks. It's fermenting atm, should be interesting.
Thanks for all the thread comments on this, really found it useful and informative, cheers!
Thanks for all the thread comments on this, really found it useful and informative, cheers!
Nice One! Don't forget to tell us about the result
troglodytes
Well-Known Member
Just an update on my latest batch, something very interesting has happened. I now have a lovely little pellicle formed on top of my carboy, I'm actually surprised as I filled it to the neck so to not get much O2 in there, must have happened when I took my gravity reading. I've noticed that the bright yellow wort I started with has now transformed into a deep orange color over the course of a month. Obviously the yeast clearing is going to cause some color change, but this was supposed to be a something in the range of 4 SRM and what I see now appears to be around 7-8 SRM if I had to guess. I'm wondering if all of those proteins from the no-boil along with O2 ingress has caused some oxidation as soon as the yeast finished up muching, which would be a shame as O2 stiffles sour production in lacto, doesn't it?
The recommended pasteurization for beer is 145 for 15 minutes (15 PU). Most beer spoilers are killed at this temp, and most of the beer volatiles are maintained. 30 PU is recommended for completely killing, according to one QC study. But this is for a finished beer where most organisms are dead from the low pH, hops, ethanol, and CO2. When talking about wort that is exposed to an enormous range of microflora and has no inhibitors other than heat, 145F is not enough to guarantee pasteurization. I am sure some people get away with it, but anecdotally people have had greater rates of success when pasteurizing at 180F+. On the MTF wiki we recommend reaching boiling temperatures, which produces steam and (hopefully) sanitizes the sides of the boil kettle and the lid.
If this is the case mashing at 145 F for 60 mins and then sparging with 170 for 30 or so should, and then the hops, ph and good sanitation would be adequate. I would go straight from MT into the Fermenter and chill it there. One less step = one less possible infection site.
Thanks for your contribution Dan. For my knowledge, what's your relationship with MtF?
I agree with your statement fully. I'm all for short brew days, but hitting that 180+ temp isn't really going to take that much longer and would provide much insurance.
I mean, the ball valves aren't hitting 140 for 20+ minutes are they? Nope.
Also, if your think everything is ok at lower temps, leave your pasturized mash covered in your tun for a day/overnight. Hello lacto. I mean, that's pretty much how a sour mash works...
I'm not trying to argue about anything but raising the temp seems like, if nothing else, a seat belt. If you have lacto or others show up in 1 of every 5 batches, or even less; how much time are you saving after dumping a batch and having to super clean equipment. Not to mention $$$. I mean Jesus, raise the wort temp another 40-50°.
It seems like a split batch may be in order. I may be willing to do it in future, warmer, months. Not only no boil vs 1 minute boil flavor, but also stability.
Cheers
Dms is created at higher temps and needs to be boiled off afterwards, keep that in mind. 1 min boil is therefore a really bad idea. Heating it up to 75c would be ok. Around 80 dms starts to build up.
that was interesting.
im beginning to think i might try just leaving some malt and hops in a room together with a bucket of wqater and leaving it alone for a few hours. it seems to just want to make beer. f it ill just plant some barley and hops together and go out when its raining.
im beginning to think i might try just leaving some malt and hops in a room together with a bucket of wqater and leaving it alone for a few hours. it seems to just want to make beer. f it ill just plant some barley and hops together and go out when its raining.
troglodytes
Well-Known Member
For me and the mixed fermentation I'm doing, I strategically did a no boil in attempts to create a high protein, turbid mash like wort that would provide a lot of fermentables for the lacto/brett. It worked well with no discernible DMS despite the fact that I upped the temp to 180F to ensure pasteurization. I think you have to pick your poison with this method, if you transfer straight from the mash tun, you risk picking up contamination (you're right, most likely from the ball valve) and if you bring it up in temp to be safe, you create DMS, with no substantial boil to get rid of it.
I'd then say this method should be played around with, because its interesting, but not because its a time saving measure. I'd like to do some small batches to experience what flavor differences a no boil imparts and then use it strategically for certain recipes, knowing the risks. If this is simply a procedure you begin doing to save time, I think the odds state that you will eventually need to clean up after a contaminated batch, so you, in the long run, probably don't achieve that goal.
I'm a moderator in the FB group, and I write/wrote most of the MTF Wiki, including the page on Wort Souring and Dimethyl Sulfide. I also am a co-host on our new podcast. I agree with your assessment for the most part, btw. I would say that reaching boiling is the best practice to avoid contamination, although you can get away with it at lower temperatures (less so below 180F). I don't think that DMS is much of an issue if the wort is not boiled because SMM conversion to DMS requires time, heat, and a closed system. If you boil for 10-15 minutes, you might be more prone to getting DMS, but even then most of the DMS that is formed will probably boil off.
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Dimethyl_Sulfide
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That's a real good write up on dms on the wiki. Cheers.
When you reach boiling, it is not raw any more. Hot break was there and everything.
The taste will be different than raw.
If you want a raw ale, you have to keep it raw. If your spigot is not heated properly enough, don't use a mash ton with a spigot.
Or you heat the collected wort to 75 degrees after mashing and keep it there for ten minutes. This should be more than enough to get rid of everything unwanted.
The taste will be different than raw.
If you want a raw ale, you have to keep it raw. If your spigot is not heated properly enough, don't use a mash ton with a spigot.
Or you heat the collected wort to 75 degrees after mashing and keep it there for ten minutes. This should be more than enough to get rid of everything unwanted.
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Sorry for my english. I am new on this forum but I have some expirence with beer homebrew.
I try three batch 4-5% ABV with BIAB, No Boil, No Chill way and I am satisfied.
Heat all required water up to 75'C, spread the bag and slow shakes malt with stirring and put the lid. Try to keep temperature between 63'C and 70'C with reheat and stirring up to 80 minutes.
Hop in one batch throw with malt (Mash Hop), sometime boil hop in 2L of pure water up to 30 minutes and pour to end of mash. After mash is end, I lift my bag and squeeze it well, stirr and pour sugar, if use it. Heat wort up to 78'C with lid. After half to one hour suddenly pour wort to fermenter and seal it up to 24 hour (while the temperature does not fall into the room temperature). I not have controled fermentation temperature and use US-05 yeast because is less sensitive to temperature changes. I dont use fininig but I plan to pour gelatin into current batch. After two weeks in fermenter and three in bottles beer is very good. Beer conditioning in bottles on room temperatures and move some bottles in fridge few days before plan to drink. No Cold Crash.
Beer is good, no DMS (and with Pilsner malt), it's bitter enough (I'm surprised how bitterness I got from Target hop in Mash Hop), no infection and after one month in bottle on room temperature (my friends and I drink it well). Beer is hazy and have too thick foam because proteins is remain in wort. With current batch I will be try gelatine fining and half of sugar in bottles.
I think my beer is not better of boiled beer with controled temperature of fermentetation and cold crash but is very good for me and my friends. I live in a small apartment without equipment and conditions for boiling and temperature control (my cooking bowl is a plastic jug with a built-in heater from electric kettle) and I think that this method is enough for make good craft beer for own needs.
Best software for recipe adjustment to this method is BeerMate. Set BIAB, water/grain ratio to 5:1, no trub, no sparge, 0 minutes of boil and 73% efficiency. If use mash hop enable No Chill. If use hop tea set normal boil time and No Chill disabled. In my opinion bitterness is something bigger.
I want to develop this method and are interested in the experiences of others who have tried it to improve the process.
I try three batch 4-5% ABV with BIAB, No Boil, No Chill way and I am satisfied.
Heat all required water up to 75'C, spread the bag and slow shakes malt with stirring and put the lid. Try to keep temperature between 63'C and 70'C with reheat and stirring up to 80 minutes.
Hop in one batch throw with malt (Mash Hop), sometime boil hop in 2L of pure water up to 30 minutes and pour to end of mash. After mash is end, I lift my bag and squeeze it well, stirr and pour sugar, if use it. Heat wort up to 78'C with lid. After half to one hour suddenly pour wort to fermenter and seal it up to 24 hour (while the temperature does not fall into the room temperature). I not have controled fermentation temperature and use US-05 yeast because is less sensitive to temperature changes. I dont use fininig but I plan to pour gelatin into current batch. After two weeks in fermenter and three in bottles beer is very good. Beer conditioning in bottles on room temperatures and move some bottles in fridge few days before plan to drink. No Cold Crash.
Beer is good, no DMS (and with Pilsner malt), it's bitter enough (I'm surprised how bitterness I got from Target hop in Mash Hop), no infection and after one month in bottle on room temperature (my friends and I drink it well). Beer is hazy and have too thick foam because proteins is remain in wort. With current batch I will be try gelatine fining and half of sugar in bottles.
I think my beer is not better of boiled beer with controled temperature of fermentetation and cold crash but is very good for me and my friends. I live in a small apartment without equipment and conditions for boiling and temperature control (my cooking bowl is a plastic jug with a built-in heater from electric kettle) and I think that this method is enough for make good craft beer for own needs.
Best software for recipe adjustment to this method is BeerMate. Set BIAB, water/grain ratio to 5:1, no trub, no sparge, 0 minutes of boil and 73% efficiency. If use mash hop enable No Chill. If use hop tea set normal boil time and No Chill disabled. In my opinion bitterness is something bigger.
I want to develop this method and are interested in the experiences of others who have tried it to improve the process.
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Good question. I actually don't know. I tried it once and had the feeling that the yeast compacted a bit better. But I do not have a real clue.
Yes, that's true. I was never interested in removing chill haze, I only wanted it to drop out the yeast.
Beer fermented with US-05 is clear of yeast remains without fining. I make one with S-04 and have loot of residue in bottles.
I will quit gelatin at the current batch and try the Irish moss when I do the following batch in the end of mash out.
I will quit gelatin at the current batch and try the Irish moss when I do the following batch in the end of mash out.
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applescrap
Be the ball!
Have we discussed extract? Obviously it needs no boil it was boiled at manufacturing. Here is what i am thinking......
Start water 5.6g add steeping grains, pull steeping grains at 165, squeeze, add dme, mix and dump in fermenter at 170. Throw hops in to calculator, shut lid and pitch yeast later. Seems so simple.
The more i thik of it, just sounds so great. Replace base grain with dme. Use specialty mini mash and flavor later with rasberrys, oak, bourbon, cherries, grahm crackers whatever.
Start water 5.6g add steeping grains, pull steeping grains at 165, squeeze, add dme, mix and dump in fermenter at 170. Throw hops in to calculator, shut lid and pitch yeast later. Seems so simple.
The more i thik of it, just sounds so great. Replace base grain with dme. Use specialty mini mash and flavor later with rasberrys, oak, bourbon, cherries, grahm crackers whatever.
I am pretty sure that this would work, but it wouldn't be a raw ale as the extract was boiled when manufactured.
applescrap
Be the ball!
Yep, thats why i have never used it. I saw 50 lbs for 130 the other day though. Would be so easy, maybe time for another raw ale.
I make four batch of No Boil Ale. Two had addition of up to 500g of table sugar and these two were better than the two without the addition of sugar. I think it's because sugar is drying beer so the protein left out of the beer without boiling is less pronounced.
What yours thinking? Is no boil beer is better with simple sugar additions?
What yours thinking? Is no boil beer is better with simple sugar additions?
