Random Beer Thoughts

[furley]

Have you, like, been outside recently?

seems mean, but funny

 

[RedCoffee]

Have you, like, been outside recently?

Well actually (stupac'd) that's a pretty glib answer to a real question.

Just saying that it's easier to say that there is some big group of "regular" craft beer drinkers that think and behave completely differently than us online jagoffs than actually demonstrate who those consumers are and what they are like. Of course we see these people buying stuff at the beer store or gas station or whatever. But do we know that they think about and buy beer in a way that is completely different than the circlejerkers in the local Craft Beer Facebook group?

 

[Marksy]

Well actually (stupac'd) that's a pretty glib answer to a real question.

Just saying that it's easier to say that there is some big group of "regular" craft beer drinkers that think and behave completely differently than us online jagoffs than actually demonstrate who those consumers are and what they are like. Of course we see these people buying stuff at the beer store or gas station or whatever. But do we know that they think about and buy beer in a way that is completely different than the circlejerkers in the local Craft Beer Facebook group?

Honestly, almost every person I know drinks craft beer to a certain extent but doesn't give enough of a **** to get online and talk about it/research exactly what to buy. When they go to the bar/store, they buy something if it sounds good or sometimes just because they've heard of it. I get texts from a lot of people with pictures and saying "is this good?" or "should I try this?" When they get something they like, they'll often stick to it - "ticking" doesn't even enter their mind. If they hear buzz about a new brewery, they'll just go have a beer there - not get on BA or Untappd to research each individual beer's rating and only go if a certain beer is pouring. But when they hear a ton of hype, they really buy in and must have it (local examples: Bourbon County, KBS, Dark Lord, etc.) - these are beer dork beers that have an aura of exclusivity around them that has become enough to ensnare casual craft beer fans alike - which plays to the point furley is making with his post.

I also worked as a beer buyer for quite a while and for every neckbeard who came in asking "do you have (flavor of the week)?," there were 30 people who came in and said "I want to try something new, can you recommend something similar to (x)?" So in my personal experience, I would say unequivocally that almost every person who drinks craft beer "thinks about and buys beer in a way that is completely different than the circlejerkers in the local Craft Beer Facebook group."

 

[RedCoffee]

I have to agree with stupac2 and furley to say you're pretty off base here.

Honestly, almost every person I know drinks craft beer to a certain extent but doesn't give enough of a **** to get online and talk about it/research what to buy. When they go to the bar/store, they buy something if it sounds good or sometimes just because they've heard of it. I get texts from a lot of people with pictures and saying "is this good?" or "should I try this?" When they get something they like, they'll often stick to it - "ticking" doesn't even enter their mind. If they hear buzz about a new brewery, they'll just go have a beer there - not get on BA or Untappd to research each individual beer's rating and only go if a certain beer is pouring.

I also worked as a beer buyer for quite a while and for every neckbeard who came in asking "do you have (flavor of the week)?," there were 30 people who came in and said "I want to try something new, can you recommend something similar to (x)?"

I would say, unequivocally, that almost every person I know who drinks craft beer "thinks about and buys beer in a way that is completely different than the circlejerkers in the local Craft Beer Facebook group."

All I'm saying is that our best understanding of craft beer consumers outside of e-circles is based entirely on anecdotal evidence.

Calling it back to furley's original statement about how beer brand hype seems to shift around a lot, how do we know that these ebbs and flows aren't also represented in the "regular consumer" pools? It definitely doesn't take the same form - they aren't online shitlording and shitposting about it. But are these hype trends completely unrelated to how craft breweries interact with their "regular" customers? I don't think we know. And further, I'd say the explosion of hazy IPAs from every brewery under the sun suggests that many of them do believe there is some connection between style hype and bottom line, however tenuous it is.

I'm not saying that all beer consumers are heterogeneous. I just don't think very many people really know how different each segment is beyond their own anecdotal impressions. And given that many craft breweries are small businesses, I'm guessing most of them don't have the market research/analytics type operations to fully understand that issue, either.

 

[Stubs]

All I'm saying is that our best understanding of craft beer consumers outside of e-circles is based entirely on anecdotal evidence.

Calling it back to furley's original statement about how beer brand hype seems to shift around a lot, how do we know that these ebbs and flows aren't also represented in the "regular consumer" pools? It definitely doesn't take the same form - they aren't online shitlording and shitposting about it. But are these hype trends completely unrelated to how craft breweries interact with their "regular" customers? I don't think we know. And further, I'd say the explosion of hazy IPAs from every brewery under the sun suggests that many of them do believe there is some connection between style hype and bottom line, however tenuous it is.

I'm not saying that all beer consumers are heterogeneous. I just don't think very many people really know how different each segment is beyond their own anecdotal impressions. And given that many craft breweries are small businesses, I'm guessing most of them don't have the market research/analytics type operations to fully understand that issue, either.

Look at like Crooked Stave though. They used to not be able to handle to the business, now there stuff is in discount bins and stuck on shelves for weeks.


Their marketing-premium pricing structure sure doesn't help, but there was definitely a time when people fought over their beer and now stores are discoing skus.


I think adapting to the market is the most important thing going on. Change formats, price points etc until it works then when it doesnt change again.

 

[reverseapachemaster1]

Look at like Crooked Stave though. They used to not be able to handle to the business, now there stuff is in discount bins and stuck on shelves for weeks.


Their marketing-premium pricing structure sure doesn't help, but there was definitely a time when people fought over their beer and now stores are discoing skus.


I think adapting to the market is the most important thing going on. Change formats, price points etc until it works then when it doesnt change again.

And to that point they are even now releasing non-sour/brett/whatever beers. Surely nobody thinks there is hype for a Crooked Stave pilsner. It seems they have reached a point where they needed to round out the portfolio.

 

[stupac2]

All I'm saying is that our best understanding of craft beer consumers outside of e-circles is based entirely on anecdotal evidence.

Calling it back to furley's original statement about how beer brand hype seems to shift around a lot, how do we know that these ebbs and flows aren't also represented in the "regular consumer" pools? It definitely doesn't take the same form - they aren't online shitlording and shitposting about it. But are these hype trends completely unrelated to how craft breweries interact with their "regular" customers? I don't think we know. And further, I'd say the explosion of hazy IPAs from every brewery under the sun suggests that many of them do believe there is some connection between style hype and bottom line, however tenuous it is.

I'm not saying that all beer consumers are heterogeneous. I just don't think very many people really know how different each segment is beyond their own anecdotal impressions. And given that many craft breweries are small businesses, I'm guessing most of them don't have the market research/analytics type operations to fully understand that issue, either.

You don't need to go much outside anecdotes because someone is buying that beer. When is the last time anyone on here talked about, I dunno, Lagunitas IPA? Yet it still flies of the shelves. No one gives half a **** about RR any more, but it's so crowded that there's a 1-hour line at 4pm on a Sunday. The people are here vary between lukewarm and outright hostile to Temescal brewing, but that patio is full every time I've been there. If you think that places like this are even close to representational of most beer drinkers, well, I just don't even know what to say.

 

[Marksy]

All I'm saying is that our best understanding of craft beer consumers outside of e-circles is based entirely on anecdotal evidence.

Calling it back to furley's original statement about how beer brand hype seems to shift around a lot, how do we know that these ebbs and flows aren't also represented in the "regular consumer" pools? It definitely doesn't take the same form - they aren't online shitlording and shitposting about it. But are these hype trends completely unrelated to how craft breweries interact with their "regular" customers? I don't think we know. And further, I'd say the explosion of hazy IPAs from every brewery under the sun suggests that many of them do believe there is some connection between style hype and bottom line, however tenuous it is.

I'm not saying that all beer consumers are heterogeneous. I just don't think very many people really know how different each segment is beyond their own anecdotal impressions. And given that many craft breweries are small businesses, I'm guessing most of them don't have the market research/analytics type operations to fully understand that issue, either.

So if I'm reading correctly, your underlying point is that craft beer wonks and craft beer n00bs both want to drink beer they and others enjoy? Well no ****, but that's a long way from your original statement of casual beer drinkers not being vastly different than the e-beer community and that they think about/buy beer in the same way. The canyon between them is immeasurable. I mean, the people on this site are part of the e-beer community just like the chuckledicks holding raffles on Facebook, but the way each "thinks about and buys beer" is completely different. I think that's why most of us are here.

And believe it or not, when you work in retail for a long time, you get to see every one of these "segments" of craft beer drinkers you mentioned. I just gave two real-life examples of my experience, yet you still say all any of us can have is anecdotal evidence?

It seems you're kind of burying your head in the sand and projecting your own "anecdotal" evidence on everyone else, harkening back to stupac2's "glib" post:

Have you, like, been outside recently?

Don't get me wrong, I think you're one of the most thoughtful and well-written posters on this site, but I'm of the opinion that you're arguing just to argue here.

 

[WhalezB4Rarez]

There is something to be said for the non-hype or rare breweries still doing their thing with success. In my local area breweries like Victory, Sly Fox, Yards, River Horse and Flying Fish have expanded or are expanding. Are any of their beers trade-bait? This is the area with Tired Hands making all the noise.

Thinking back to Nintendo's "blue ocean" mantra with the release of the Wii there is a bigger customer base out there than just hardcore video gamers. There are still plenty of Macro drinkers out there to turn into craft drinkers. My neighbor across the street has an empty case of Sam Adams Boston Ale almost every week with his recycling.

My local Iron Hill Brewery is packed on weekend nights.

 

[danbanana]

I just gave two real-life examples of my experience, yet you still say all any of us can have is anecdotal evidence?

Not to be pedantic but that is literally the definition of anecdotal...

 

[furley]

Pre-prohibition drinking at the local place was the norm (and yes, distribution technology had something to do with that, but still), and there's no reason to suppose that breweries are significantly different from bars/restaurants in terms of how many a given location can support.

....................If the goal is to make tasty beer and do limited-if-any distribution, then there's really no more reason to be skeptical than there is of someone opening, say, a butcher shop or something.

i'm certainly no expert and haven't traveled a ton for beer only purposes. are there examples of "limited/no" distribution breweries that are functioning essentially as bars, serving only their own beer?

especially in smaller towns

 

[mvl339]

TLDR is do like daniel plainview and drink the milkshake til it runs dry

 

[user 305778]

i'm certainly no expert and haven't traveled a ton for beer only purposes. are there examples of "limited/no" distribution breweries that are functioning essentially as bars, serving only their own beer?

especially in smaller towns

Huh? Isn't this just the definition of a brewpub which don't usually distribute?

 

[Marksy]

Not to be pedantic but that is literally the definition of anecdotal...

But I meant...ah **** it, you're right.

 

[furley]

Huh? Isn't this just the definition of a brewpub which don't usually distribute?

most do that with food as their anchor

i can't think of one around here that serves beer but doesn't distribute and doesn't have a restaurant

 

[user 305778]

most do that with food as their anchor

i can't think of one around here that serves beer but doesn't distribute and doesn't have a restaurant

ohhh okay. It's not actually possible to do that in Philly (PA as a whole really) so I didn't even think about it. As far as I know, though, when it's legal, there are plenty of breweries that only have a tasting room and just have a rotation of food trucks to serve their customers.

 

[nhindian1]

Talkbeer, BA, many of the Facebook groups are all just one extreme of the spectrum. There are quite a few breweries in Pittsburgh (lol yinzers) that get almost zero hype, aren't trade bait in the least, and are rarely talked about. But every weekend (especially when it's nice out), they are packed. People rag on Southern Tier, but there's a wait every weekend to get in the Pittsburgh spot, and with baseball starting up it's only going to get worse. How many people know of Grist House? Butts to nuts.

Sure, when big releases come, that's when the chatter comes, but beer nerds here generally aren't the people keeping the lights on at these places 24/7/365.

 

[furley]

Talkbeer, BA, many of the Facebook groups are all just one extreme of the spectrum. There are quite a few breweries in Pittsburgh (lol yinzers) that get almost zero hype, aren't trade bait in the least, and are rarely talked about. But every weekend (especially when it's nice out), they are packed. People rag on Southern Tier, but there's a wait every weekend to get in the Pittsburgh spot, and with baseball starting up it's only going to get worse. How many people know of Grist House? Butts to nuts.

Sure, when big releases come, that's when the chatter comes, but beer nerds here generally aren't the people keeping the lights on at these places 24/7/365.

what are the draws for these places?

food? location on the water? close to colleges?

 

[litheum94]

discoing

 

[jivex5k1]

Their marketing-premium pricing structure sure doesn't help, but there was definitely a time when people fought over their beer and now stores are discoing stus.

FTFY

EDIT- God damnit litheum94.

 

[trickytunadicky]

There is something to be said for the non-hype or rare breweries still doing their thing with success. In my local area breweries like Victory, Sly Fox, Yards, River Horse and Flying Fish have expanded or are expanding. Are any of their beers trade-bait? This is the area with Tired Hands making all the noise.

Thinking back to Nintendo's "blue ocean" mantra with the release of the Wii there is a bigger customer base out there than just hardcore video gamers. There are still plenty of Macro drinkers out there to turn into craft drinkers. My neighbor across the street has an empty case of Sam Adams Boston Ale almost every week with his recycling.

My local Iron Hill Brewery is packed on weekend nights.

This may sound strange, maybe it's like the random Rock Bottom thay gets a killer brewer cutting their teeth, but one of the best braggots I have ever had was a honey saison from an Iron Hill. Solidified my opinion that the best braggots have a saison base.

 

[Stubs]

And to that point they are even now releasing non-sour/brett/whatever beers. Surely nobody thinks there is hype for a Crooked Stave pilsner. It seems they have reached a point where they needed to round out the portfolio.

Which is true. But Crooked Stave gonna Crooked Stave so 750 growlers of those beers for 15 bucks with a bunch of rules.



Srs. I've said it before, but in CO at least, find your niche, and don't overstep your size and ypu can be fine. Get greedy in volume, boring, or overpriced and you're in trouble.

 

[hornydevil]

Which is true. But Crooked Stave gonna Crooked Stave so 750 growlers of those beers for 15 bucks with a bunch of rules.



Srs. I've said it before, but in CO at least, find your niche, and don't overstep your size and ypu can be fine. Get greedy in volume, boring, or overpriced and you're in trouble.

Even before I left in 2009 it was very much this. Now even more so. Which, in reality, is the case anywhere. You've got to know your limitations.

 

[drgarage1]

Which is true. But Crooked Stave gonna Crooked Stave so 750 growlers of those beers for 15 bucks with a bunch of rules.



Srs. I've said it before, but in CO at least, find your niche, and don't overstep your size and ypu can be fine. Get greedy in volume, boring, or overpriced and you're in trouble.

CS also had a run of horrendous quality control that they didn't acknowledge and even attacked people over. Three straight Surettes with a massive diacetyl problem was enough for me! Seems like they've improved that given bottles I've had since 2016, but they shot themselves in the face in 2014 just as they were expanding beyond Colorado.

See also: Bruery, The.

 

[RedCoffee]

You don't need to go much outside anecdotes because someone is buying that beer. When is the last time anyone on here talked about, I dunno, Lagunitas IPA? Yet it still flies of the shelves. No one gives half a **** about RR any more, but it's so crowded that there's a 1-hour line at 4pm on a Sunday. The people are here vary between lukewarm and outright hostile to Temescal brewing, but that patio is full every time I've been there. If you think that places like this are even close to representational of most beer drinkers, well, I just don't even know what to say.

So if I'm reading correctly, your underlying point is that craft beer wonks and craft beer n00bs both want to drink beer they and others enjoy? Well no ****, but that's a long way from your original statement of casual beer drinkers not being vastly different than the e-beer community and that they think about/buy beer in the same way. The canyon between them is immeasurable. I mean, the people on this site are part of the e-beer community just like the chuckledicks holding raffles on Facebook, but the way each "thinks about and buys beer" is completely different. I think that's why most of us are here.

And believe it or not, when you work in retail for a long time, you get to see every one of these "segments" of craft beer drinkers you mentioned. I just gave two real-life examples of my experience, yet you still say all any of us can have is anecdotal evidence?

It seems you're kind of burying your head in the sand and projecting your own "anecdotal" evidence on everyone else, harkening back to stupac2's "glib" post:


Don't get me wrong, I think you're one of the most thoughtful and well-written posters on this site, but I'm of the opinion that you're arguing just to argue here.

Guys, we seriously barely disagree on any of this so I have no idea why I'm the one being accused of arguing for the sake of arguing.

- furley pointed out that, given how fickle brewery hype seems, maybe breweries will one day regret not capitalizing on waves of hype
- Y'all said that brewery hype is essentially irrelevant to the grander scheme of things because beer nerds on the internet are a small segment of the market
- I questioned whether any of us really know or has any hard evidence about the nature of this big group of other consumers (hard evidence not being the plural form of anecdotes). Not that they don't exist (who are they as in do they exist - which was originally worded poorly on my part) but who are they as consumers? What drives them? How are they impacted by brewery hype, if at all?
- Y'all remain hung up on this as if I don't realize that BeerAdvocate's userbase =/= all craft beer customers.

Just because I don't immediately accept sight-unseen that most craft beer customers have certain behaviors that specifically refute furley's point doesn't mean I literally don't acknowledge that they exist or behave differently than hardcore beer nerds.

(Or at least that's what I think based on my window view of the real world. Mother hasn't let me out to play in a while.)

 

[hornydevil]

Solidified my opinion that the best braggots have a saison base.

You need to taste more braggots, brah.

Seriously, though, it's a style that's pretty poorly represented, yet a style that is HUGELY versatile.

 

[hornydevil]

what are the draws for these places?

food? location on the water? close to colleges?

They are breweries. That's the draw.

 

[stupac2]

i'm certainly no expert and haven't traveled a ton for beer only purposes. are there examples of "limited/no" distribution breweries that are functioning essentially as bars, serving only their own beer?

especially in smaller towns

There are a bunch around here. You'll see kegs in a few bars, but all packaging (if any) is sold in-house or maaaaybe at a handful of local places. I don't mean that they send literally nothing around, but that it's mostly kegs, and mostly within an hour's drive.

 

[FoudreGuy]

They are breweries. That's the draw.

Some people just want to go drink a beer somewhere that's nearby.

For every Holy Mountain and Fremont in Seattle, you can also find packed crowds at Populuxe or Stoup or Lucky Envelope.

 

[danbanana]

You need to taste more braggots, brah.