Ra

[flexbrew]

I am trying to determine my RA for use in palmer excel spreadshhet. Can anyone help with the math. Below is my water data.

Alkalinity 4.0
Calcium 2.15
Chloride 8.7
Hardness 7.5
Magnesium 0.52
pH 6.9
Potassium 0.481
Sodium 5.5
Sulfate (SO4) 4.5

 

[bmbigda]

as long as you know what you hardness number refers to (CaCO3 or HCO3), then its much simpler than you're realizing. plug in all the numbers you've listed in the "source water" portion. you won't need pottasium or alkalinity. towards the top, enter you target SRM...this will output a range of acceptable RA levels for the particular recipe you're brewing.

what I usually do next is scroll down to the salt additions portion, and manipulate the final numbers to agree with Palmers suggested levels in the book (can be found online, too). as you're adjusting you bicarbonate levels, the spreadsheet will output an SRM range, the idea is to get you target SRM to fall within this range, preferably towards the middle.

 

[bobbytuck]

Or drop RA -- and the idea of manipulating SRM to get an RA (or vice versa) -- altogether and simply target pH (with a calibrated pH meter and proper salt additions). I've been working with the Bru'n spreadsheet (and the advice of many generous folks here in the forum) and have had very good luck with this approach.

 

[ajdelange]

In a nutshell, you don't have any to speak of. The formula is

RA = alkalinity - [calcium_hardness - magnesium_hardness/2]/3.5.

Your alkalinity is 4.
Your calcium hardness is 50*2.15/20 = 5.4
Your magnesium hardness is 50* 0.52/12.15 = 2.1

Thus your RA = 4 - [5.4 + 2.1/2]/3.5 = 2.2

 

[Homercidal]

Or drop RA -- and the idea of manipulating SRM to get an RA (or vice versa) -- altogether and simply target pH (with a calibrated pH meter and proper salt additions). I've been working with the Bru'n spreadsheet (and the advice of many generous folks here in the forum) and have had very good luck with this approach.

I'm with Bobby here. I started out targeting RA and later found out that it really makes little difference. Target pH and let the RA fall where it may.

Kai has a nice podcast on pH on basic brewing, and there is a nice spreadsheet called Bru'nwater that I use that really works toward pH. It's a busy spreadsheet, but it gives you all sorts of information. It just makes sense once you grasp the idea that pH is the goal.

 

[flexbrew]

What about using Buffer 5.2 in the mash. Then if you want a certain water profile add to the volume you now have right in the boil. This way you get the mash ph and a the desired flavor.

 

[ajdelange]

If 5.2 did what its label says it does that would work but it doesn't and so it won't.

 

[flexbrew]

Those are the same guys who make star san right? Talk about going from a homerun to a swing and a miss. Has anyone told them it doesnt work?

 

[flexbrew]

The only reason I dont want to use bru n water is because i dont know how to fill in my watet for bicarbonate, carbonate, sulfate and just to get confirmation that both nitrates, fluoride and iron are all 0. Attached is my water report any help woyld be greatly appreciated.

My report doesnt say how alot of theese items are being reported.

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, someone (can't remember whether it was here or another forum) called them and they told him that it couldn't be expected to lower pH to 5.2 but was intended to insure that pH didn't go below 5.2.

 

[flexbrew]

So really 5.2 would be best for when using lots of dark malt in the geain bill? So whenever I brew a stout I could use 5.2 and salt in the kettle.

 

[ajdelange]

I wouldn't draw that conclusion. 5.2 is a mix of monobasic and dibasic sodium phosphate which buffers to 5.8 in distilled water. There are better ways to control mash pH in a stout.

 

[Homercidal]

The only reason I dont want to use bru n water is because i dont know how to fill in my watet for bicarbonate, carbonate, sulfate and just to get confirmation that both nitrates, fluoride and iron are all 0. Attached is my water report any help woyld be greatly appreciated.

My report doesnt say how alot of theese items are being reported.

I can't get a full sized image.

 

[flexbrew]

Does this do it, im the collumn "ludlow monitoring station"

 

[flexbrew]

Ok, this should be much better!

 

[Homercidal]

Ok, I got your report and I'm confused about it. Maybe someone can help out. I'll list everything that I think is important and maybe we can figure what's missing to make the water spreadsheet come out right

Calcium = 2150 UG/L
Chloride = 8.7 MG/L
Iron = 13.2 UG/L
Magnesium = 520 UG/L
Potassium = 481 UG/L
Sodium = 5.5 MG/L
Sulfate = 4.5 MG/L
Alkalinity = 4.0 MG/L
Hardness = 7.5 MG/L
Nitrate = .016 MG/L


I put this into Bru'nwater and it says the cations and the anions don't agree. Something isn't reported correctly or input wrong.

 

[flexbrew]

Did you divide the UG/L by 1000? I use 2.15 MG/L for Calcium for example. Maybe tgats the error?

 

[ajdelange]

The report does not balance (there are 0.15 mEq/L more anions than cations) but reports seldom do. There isn't anything you can do about it except ignore it or add or subtract something to make it balance. This is pure guesswork.

 

[Homercidal]

The report should give enough information to balance close. The ions will balance out over time. I have a feeling there is something not on the report, or is listed other than I can account for.

And there is a LOT of extra information on this report.

It might be practical to send a sample to Wards Labs. It costs about $20, and you will get the information you need in a format that is more compatible with the spreadsheets.

 

[flexbrew]

Thanks for your efforts, i may go to wards. I am brewing this weekend, so I may just add for a 6 gallon boil for a pale ale 14 srm, 2g Chalk, 2g Gypsum, 1g Cal Cholride, 1.5g Epsom, .5g Baking Soda. Give or take, lol.

 

[ajdelange]

As I noted, reports seldom balance and there are several reasons for this.
1. Entries are averages over a period of time
2. Entries are measured at different times (e.g. Ca on Mondays and Mg on Thursday.
3. Some ion has been omitted.
4. There is an interference
5. Plain old measurement errors in doing the lab work
6. Failure to specify the end point used in the alkalinity titration.

Ward Labs reports are as prone to this as any one else's reports. In fact they often run 0.2-0.4 mEq/L imbalance.

flexbrew - skip the chalk and bicarbonate. Never add those to brewing water*. You can also skip the epsom salts.

* There are times when these should be added to brewing water but it should only be done by those who understand what they are undertaking and its consequences.

 

[flexbrew]

Thanks, so just the gypsum and calcium chloride. Do those amounts look good. Maybe half in the strike and half in the kettle. Or should i put all in the kettle?

 

[ajdelange]

In the mash water. You'll need acid too. See the Primer.

 

[flexbrew]

Yeah, sorry. Half in the mash half in the kettle The strike gets acid right? Unsure how to tell how much.

 

[ajdelange]

No, all in the mash water. Acid is easiest to handle in the form of sauermalz and it goes in the grist. See the Primer.

 

[mabrungard]

No, all in the mash water. Acid is easiest to handle in the form of sauermalz and it goes in the grist. See the Primer.

I'm confused with this. Acid is added as needed to produce the proper mash pH.

If the sparging water has significant alkalinity and its pH is above about 6.5, then acidification to reduce that alkalinity is required. That won't be coming from an acid malt addition. If your brewing with RO or distilled water, then you don't need to worry about acidifying the sparging water.

 

[ajdelange]

I'm confused with this. Acid is added as needed to produce the proper mash pH.

Guess I'm confused about the confusion. He has very soft (low mineral) water. He will need some acid to get pH into range. This could be put in the water or it could be put in the grist or mash. When using sauermalz to supply the acid one just puts it in with the other grains.

If the sparging water has significant alkalinity and its pH is above about 6.5, then acidification to reduce that alkalinity is required. That won't be coming from an acid malt addition. If your brewing with RO or distilled water, then you don't need to worry about acidifying the sparging water.

His alkalinity is 4. He will not need to worry about acidifying his sparge water.

 

[Homercidal]

As I noted, reports seldom balance and there are several reasons for this.
1. Entries are averages over a period of time
2. Entries are measured at different times (e.g. Ca on Mondays and Mg on Thursday.
3. Some ion has been omitted.
4. There is an interference
5. Plain old measurement errors in doing the lab work
6. Failure to specify the end point used in the alkalinity titration.

Ward Labs reports are as prone to this as any one else's reports. In fact they often run 0.2-0.4 mEq/L imbalance.

flexbrew - skip the chalk and bicarbonate. Never add those to brewing water*. You can also skip the epsom salts.

* There are times when these should be added to brewing water but it should only be done by those who understand what they are undertaking and its consequences.

Based on Flex's water report, how much of a variance do you come up with?

 

[mabrungard]

AJ is correct. If the brewer's water already has low alkalinity, then no acidification of the sparge water is necessary. I missed that.

 

[ajdelange]

Based on Flex's water report, how much of a variance do you come up with?

I get 0.402 mEq/L cations and 0.368 anions. Pretty good balance, actually,

 

[Homercidal]

I see what done. For starters, I missed converting the iron from UG/L to MG/L. Also, I kept looking for bicarbonate on the report, forgetting that it's calculated on the spreadsheet.

After fixing those, it comes out balanced. I get .4 and .42.

 

[flexbrew]

Ok, so a .42 and .4 are .96 ratio. Is that close?

 

[mabrungard]

Ok, so a .42 and .4 are .96 ratio. Is that close?

That's the problem with the ratio. When the total ionic content of the water is low, very minor difference in the cation and anion totals produce disproportionate effect on their calculated ratio. If the anion and cation totals are within several tenths in this case, its plenty close enough.

I need to come up with a better check for ion balance in this case.

 

[flexbrew]

I know some of my numbers round to the 3rd decimal, but when you put it in tge spreadshhet it rounds it to 2. Would it help the spreadsheet if it rounded to 3 like the water report?

 

[Homercidal]

Frankly, I wouldn't worry about it. It's an extremely small amount.