Cool- well if it works then there is a "pre-malted" quinoa- no complaints from me.
Quinoa Pale Ale
- Thread starter DirtbagHB
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk:
Hex
Well-Known Member
Why do you want to malt Quiona? Why not just toast it for flavor?
It seems to me that if you sprout something, something else gets used up, like starch/sugar. If your adding enzymes and not getting any enzymes from the grain, why bother?
It seems to me that if you sprout something, something else gets used up, like starch/sugar. If your adding enzymes and not getting any enzymes from the grain, why bother?
Hex
Well-Known Member
If you toast raw Quiona and grind it, you can use that in a mash as well.
How do you think Sake is made? I don't think they malt the rice before they put it through saccharification.
I was under the impression that only reason to malt anything is to activate the enzymes which allow for self conversion. If your going to add enzymes, why bother?
How do you think Sake is made? I don't think they malt the rice before they put it through saccharification.
I was under the impression that only reason to malt anything is to activate the enzymes which allow for self conversion. If your going to add enzymes, why bother?
Hex
Well-Known Member
I eat Quiona, and like it! Interested in your beer idea.
With sake the starch conversion is done with mold.
Koji is rice that has had aspergillus oryzae (koji-kin) mold grown on it. This special mold has an interesting property: it secretes enzymes that convert starch to sugar. If you add it to a soupy mash of rice, water, and yeast, the result is fermentation.
fermentedhiker
Well-Known Member
one thing I've been wondering about the whole malting/ vs a. amylase question. I've been reading a book on raw food which had some info that go me thinking. According to the book the nutritive value of a see/grain increases greatly after germination(notice where not even talking about getting although way to sprouted yet) so more than just enzyme production is taking place. Makes me wonder if it's not possible to reproduce the same flavors qualities using unmalted grains and mashing with added enzymes? I'm willing to concede that it's entirely possible that the changes have an insignificant affect on flavor in beer, but..............not knowing is not knowing if you know what I mean 
Second thought was that since germination is much easier to do efficiently than full on sprouting. We could easily germinate then dry and roast GF grains which would encompass many of the changes in the seed/grains and then add enzymes to do the actual conversion. Just a few thoughts that I've been mulling over.
Second thought was that since germination is much easier to do efficiently than full on sprouting. We could easily germinate then dry and roast GF grains which would encompass many of the changes in the seed/grains and then add enzymes to do the actual conversion. Just a few thoughts that I've been mulling over.
I think for the time being, I'm always going add enzymes, despite malting my grain. I'd love to say I was able to get a full conversion on my own, but with all the time and work put into malting and a GF brew day, I'm more interested in getting something out of it. And I'll continue to malt until I find a place that I can buy beta amylase... Or any future sweet potato experiments provide good results.
OP
OP
DirtbagHB
Well-Known Member
ive been gone for a while but now im back. from what ive read, getting full starch conversion, even with glutenous brewing it is still some of a holy grail (from books and peers). though i could be compeletly full of S but most people strive for70-80 percent conversion, i havent read much about 90%+ conversion . so if were getting conversion from either home malted or pre sprouted (havent tried nor seen presprouted) it would just be a matter of refining the process. getting better milling consistencies, consistent mashing temps. consistent boil temps. consistant ferm temps ect. ect. not to say that it cant be done but that it can be challenging.
Thank you for sending me this beer, it is impressive. I don't know that I would exactly be able to say this beer is gluten free and I for one will be looking over this recipe and giving it a shot. Want to send some more my way
OP
OP
DirtbagHB
Well-Known Member
I'd love to send you anothe quinoa brew. However you got posted the last bottle
This recipe sounds awesome. If I ever graduate to all grain brewing I am definitely giving this one a go. I love the idea of a quinoa beer.
I'm not ready to try malting and all-grain just yet, but I'm planning on roasting some grains for some upcoming brews, and one of the grains I've got is quinoa.
If it looks half as good as your picture, and tastes half as good as it looks, I'll be happy!
If it looks half as good as your picture, and tastes half as good as it looks, I'll be happy!
OP
OP
DirtbagHB
Well-Known Member
I'm gonna try the toasting ave and see if it comes out the same using added enzymes. Well see what happens with it. Hopefully tackeling in in the next month
My guess is that it will be different, but not worse.
So has anyone been able to really convert quinoa well? That beer does look great but without gravity readings it's hard to tell for sure.
I've tried a few times now and never get any real conversion. In the latest batch (a 2 gallon batch) I mashed 4# of home-malted quinoa with 2# of sweet potatoes (they have tons of beta amylase, apparently) and tons of the powdered alpha amylase stuff. Still kept failing the iodine test and tasted super starchy but after a 3 hour mash I decided to boil with some hops and ferment anyway.
I got an OG around 1.040 but after about a month it hasn't fallen much. It fermented a bit and actually smells oddly beer-like but it's starchy and gross.
I took an earlier version of my quinoa experiment (100% quinoa, using that pre-sprouted stuff) and dumped in the dregs of a Jolly Pumpkin La Roja -- I figured those bugs would be able to eat the starches. It now smells nicely sour and even has a pellicle! Not exactly gluten free but a quinoa lambic could be tasty.
I've tried a few times now and never get any real conversion. In the latest batch (a 2 gallon batch) I mashed 4# of home-malted quinoa with 2# of sweet potatoes (they have tons of beta amylase, apparently) and tons of the powdered alpha amylase stuff. Still kept failing the iodine test and tasted super starchy but after a 3 hour mash I decided to boil with some hops and ferment anyway.
I got an OG around 1.040 but after about a month it hasn't fallen much. It fermented a bit and actually smells oddly beer-like but it's starchy and gross.
I took an earlier version of my quinoa experiment (100% quinoa, using that pre-sprouted stuff) and dumped in the dregs of a Jolly Pumpkin La Roja -- I figured those bugs would be able to eat the starches. It now smells nicely sour and even has a pellicle! Not exactly gluten free but a quinoa lambic could be tasty.
Lol, I always thought GF sour beer was a good idea, but I didn't have anyone to drink it. Who cares about much conversion when you are dealing with Lacto!
As to answer your question, Dirtbag has found a mix of beta and alpha enzymes in the form of his...blanking on the name but it is earlier in this thread. I have not been able to source it anywhere for sale yet online.
EDIT: The name is Crosby & Baker.
Hmm, are you sure it's alpha & beta though? Seems to just be called "Amylase Enzyme Formula" like the stuff sold at austin homebrew...
At least this guy was unhappy about the stuff: http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=2550
I'm just going off what Dirtbag said, the site http://crosby-baker.com/index.php/processing-aids/enzymes.html has essentially no information and I havent used it myself.
This one looks like it (i.e., Crosby & Baker amylase for sale online): http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/amylase-enzyme-1.5-oz/4,12199.html
Though still not quite convinced it's different than the amylase at austin homebrew, which is what I used.
Has anyone seen this??? http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/convertase-enzyme-1oz/4,12267.html
That sounds promising.
I made a gallon of quinoa/amaranth ale a couple years ago. It was my first GF experiment with self-malted grains and I didn't have a mill. I ended up putting 4lbs through a coffee grinder and it was all flour. After the mash, I strained out the larger chucks with a paint strainer, but a lot of flour ended up in kettle and then the fermentor, which lead to multiple racking attempts to remove, which lead to an infection. It tasted like vomit. I decided to bottle it and bring it out on unsuspecting victims. After I ran out of victims, the remaining bottles were put into storage. I decided to open one recently and it isn't bad. I actually like it.
I have some of that stuff. I've tried to convert some rice flour with it, but after 4 hours, I didn't see any results.
OP
OP
DirtbagHB
Well-Known Member
in regards to the iodine test, my thought, i did do an iodine test on this, it did fail as the iodine stayed mostly black, but wont this be the case unless 100% conversion is achieved? with efficiency we'll never get 100% conversion, most people are glad to get 70, if ive been reading right.. i think i may have a pic of my OG, but im pretty sure i dont have one of FG. ill have to do some hunting around. update to follow.
after digging around the hard drive, i havent a clue where those pictures have gone.....
after digging around the hard drive, i havent a clue where those pictures have gone.....
I assumed that efficiency corresponded to how much you were able to extract from the grains. So even if you converted everything that you extracted, you left some stuff (starch or sugars) in the grains.
Not sure about this, but regardless I know the iodine test is used, and when I use it when making a regular beer the iodine-wort solution does not turn black. It is sometimes dark-ish but not like the complete blackness I see during a quinoa mash. Though I see your point that maybe there's been some conversion and that's "good enough" for a reasonable fermentation.
Still have no idea why I can't get quinoa to convert even close to as well as barley.
Same question answered here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/iodine-test-starch-converstion-ag-batches-6877/
By the way, efficiency is estimated using gravity readings, right? And starches do add to gravity...I think that implies efficiency must mean extraction and says nothing about conversion.
By the way, efficiency is estimated using gravity readings, right? And starches do add to gravity...I think that implies efficiency must mean extraction and says nothing about conversion.
OP
OP
DirtbagHB
Well-Known Member
..now im really kicking my self in the arse because i didnt take/cant find OG or FG readings
heres a possibility. when were toasting our grain, is there a chance that were killing any of the enzymes that we may have 'captured' in the malting process. what about adding some pale malt (untoasted malt) to the mash to possibly add some of the natural enzymes to the mash that may have been removed, along with putting in the sourced enzyme mix.
i dont know the enzyme content of quinoa, i dont want to put a fudged number out their either, if i remember previous readings, barley malt has FAR more enzymes than necessary for conversion during the mashing process. and i think (THINK but am not sure) most of the GF grains out there have little natural enzymes.
can some one find this out?
heres a possibility. when were toasting our grain, is there a chance that were killing any of the enzymes that we may have 'captured' in the malting process. what about adding some pale malt (untoasted malt) to the mash to possibly add some of the natural enzymes to the mash that may have been removed, along with putting in the sourced enzyme mix.
i dont know the enzyme content of quinoa, i dont want to put a fudged number out their either, if i remember previous readings, barley malt has FAR more enzymes than necessary for conversion during the mashing process. and i think (THINK but am not sure) most of the GF grains out there have little natural enzymes.
can some one find this out?
I followed a very similar process of malting and mashing with 100% quinoa. I used rice hulls and still had a huge problem with stuck mash. I ended up just pouring though grain bag.
Any info on how you went about the mash/sparge would be helpful.
Any info on how you went about the mash/sparge would be helpful.
Toasting WILL destroy enzymes from the malting process. I can't remember what the cutoff is, but that's generally a difference between the base malts and the specialty malts. As you go darker, the enzyme content goes down, and at some point, a dark malt simply has no enzymes left.
I think one of the reasons that Sorghum is commonly used as a base for beers (well, as commonly as it is, anyway) is that it has the enzymes to convert itself and perhaps a little left over.
As for your idea, that's what is commonly done for regular barley based beers. I've often heard 'toss in a little two-row to convert that crystal malt' or something along those lines.
One of the Brewing Science abstracts on this page has some information about beta-amylase activity with different germination times and temperatures (each batch was kilned at 165 F)...
http://www.mbaa.com/TechQuarterly/pdfs/TQ-45-1-0073.pdf
It concludes that optimal malting occurred with a 5 day germination time, but that was the shortest germination time they tried, so maybe better malting (enzyme activity) would occur with even shorter germination times.
http://www.mbaa.com/TechQuarterly/pdfs/TQ-45-1-0073.pdf
It concludes that optimal malting occurred with a 5 day germination time, but that was the shortest germination time they tried, so maybe better malting (enzyme activity) would occur with even shorter germination times.
