Question for first Brett/bugs attempt. Rye Saison

[Max_Chavez]

Well,
I've just bottled my first Sour mash and now I've been bitten and ready to take the plunge into the world of wild card brewing. I headed to the LHBS and while I was buying stuff for my Rye Saison, I saw a 3gal better bottle and thought, hey, that's different looking enough to not get mixed up with our "clean" stuff. Why the hell not?

Here's my plan:
Brew a Rye saison(5gal), split the wort in two- one to ferment as usual and one which will get a lb of Dark belgian candy syrup(since we're looking at winter by then) and some Jolly Pumpkin dregs(thinking just 1 btl) and maybe a rye whiskey soaked dowel courtesy of our neighborhood distillery!

What I'm unsure of is, should I:
1. Add dregs at the same time as WY3711
2. Add dregs, say 2 days into Primary.
3. Add dregs in Secondary.
4. Add dregs along with candy syrup in secondary for a boost since 3711 finishes so dry.

I'm leaning towards 1. since I feel that might help it finish in the 4month range rather than the 6month-year range. Making the decision harder is the fact that we'll probably enjoy whatever happens, as we like just about all range of sours.

I would love any thoughts and comments to the questions I've asked and to those I haven't

 

[Max_Chavez]

Also, I would normally leave hops and all together for a 3 week primary.
Should I rack to secondary after a week? Two?
Do some people not rack to secondary with brett?

Thanks

 

[BzurkoBrews]

You don't really need to rack to secondary ever. Clean beers don't need a secondary. If you don't feel comfortable leaving it on the yeast for a long time then rack it after a month. Add the dregs at the beginning of fermentation. Give them the best chance possible. Also why are you adding sugar? Especially with 3711. That yeast finishes so dry there is no need for a sugar addition. Let alone expensive belgian candy sugar. Brett and bugs don't need extra sugar to do what they do. Brett will feed on esters and phenols produced by saccharomyces to produce it's own unique esters and flavors. Jolly pumpkin dregs will get you acidity and Brett character very quickly. I have used them in conjunction with 3711 with very good results.


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[Max_Chavez]

Thanks. Yes, I would not secondary a clean beer. Are you saying leave everything-hop material included- in the primary, even if it is 3 months plus?
Candi syrup was a tiny bit for color/aroma, and also because this is a batch that I'm splitting and would like this half to have a touch more abv, since it'll be mostly wintery drinking.

 

[Max_Chavez]

Can I ask what your FG for the dregs/3711 was?

 

[Weezy]

The sac yeast will devour the candi sugar before the dregs have a chance. Adding the syrup will make the beer more dry..

 

[BzurkoBrews]

The French saison will take anything down to 1.002 to 1.003. Every time I've used it that's where it finished up. With or without bugs.


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[Max_Chavez]

Any more votes for no candi syrup?

How about racking to secondary, if/when?

 

[BzurkoBrews]

If you have your heart set on a sugar addition I would vote for plain table sugar. If only 5-10% then add it to boil. If you're using >10% then you will need to add it during fermentation when it starts slowing down. I've left beers on the whole yeast cake for a year plus with no noticeable autolysis flavors.


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[TNGabe]

The sac yeast will devour the candi sugar before the dregs have a chance. Adding the syrup will make the beer more dry..

It is a common misconception that adding sugar will make a beer 'more dry.' It will generally increase attenuation, although as noted with 3711, some yeasts are so attenuative sugar doesn't make much of a difference. Perceived dryness is controlled by a number of factors, not just the attenuation. Adding sugar will increase alcohol level, but alcohol is sweet and increased alcohol levels generally lead to a decreased perception of dryness as alcohol contributes to both body and mouthfeel.

I've left beers on the whole yeast cake for a year plus with no noticeable autolysis flavors.

Just because you didn't notice the off flavors, doesn't mean they weren't there.

 

[BzurkoBrews]

Any flavors that may have been there from autolysis probably added to the overall complexity of the mixed fermentation.


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[Max_Chavez]

It is a common misconception that adding sugar will make a beer 'more dry.' It will generally increase attenuation, although as noted with 3711, some yeasts are so attenuative sugar doesn't make much of a difference. Perceived dryness is controlled by a number of factors, not just the attenuation. Adding sugar will increase alcohol level, but alcohol is sweet and increased alcohol levels generally lead to a decreased perception of dryness as alcohol contributes to both body and mouthfeel.



Just because you didn't notice the off flavors, doesn't mean they weren't there.

Thanks for the input. What do you think? Rack to secondary after 2 weeks? 1 month? Then how about harvesting yeast from the primary? Secondary? Both and combining?

How about ferm temp? I've read ideas that pitching high can lead to bandaid phenols? I have temp control but was planning to ferm the non Brett half at 80. No good for the Brett half?

 

[Max_Chavez]

It is a common misconception that adding sugar will make a beer 'more dry.' It will generally increase attenuation, although as noted with 3711, some yeasts are so attenuative sugar doesn't make much of a difference. Perceived dryness is controlled by a number of factors, not just the attenuation. Adding sugar will increase alcohol level, but alcohol is sweet and increased alcohol levels generally lead to a decreased perception of dryness as alcohol contributes to both body and mouthfeel.



Just because you didn't notice the off flavors, doesn't mean they weren't there.

Thanks for the input. What do you think? Rack to secondary after 2 weeks? 1 month? Then how about harvesting yeast from the primary? Secondary? Both and combining?

How about ferm temp? I've read ideas that pitching high can lead to bandaid phenols? I have temp control but was planning to ferm the non Brett half at 80. No good for the Brett half?

 

[Max_Chavez]

It is a common misconception that adding sugar will make a beer 'more dry.' It will generally increase attenuation, although as noted with 3711, some yeasts are so attenuative sugar doesn't make much of a difference. Perceived dryness is controlled by a number of factors, not just the attenuation. Adding sugar will increase alcohol level, but alcohol is sweet and increased alcohol levels generally lead to a decreased perception of dryness as alcohol contributes to both body and mouthfeel.



Just because you didn't notice the off flavors, doesn't mean they weren't there.

Thanks for the input. What do you think? Rack to secondary after 2 weeks? 1 month? Then how about harvesting yeast from the primary? Secondary? Both and combining?

How about ferm temp? I've read ideas that pitching high can lead to bandaid phenols? I have temp control but was planning to ferm the non Brett half at 80. No good for the Brett half?

 

[Max_Chavez]

Wow. That escalated quickly. Thanks tapatalk! Sorry guys