Quest for Pilsener Urquell

[oompahpah]

PU's been my favorite beer since the seventies, when the caps were lined with cork. (Yes, I'm that old.) I've been brewing for a year now, 75 gallons and just went AG. I like to keep things simple (aerate wort by pouring between brewpot and primary 5 times is my favorite.)
I'm wondering if some experienced lagerers could share their technique on creating the starter - could you possibly dump a Wyeast Activator into a 2 liter flask with a stir bar and step up to pitching size in one step?
From what I've read to do a cold pitch would require two smack packs and 4 L of starter, would you step up at 70 degrees and then gradually cool down to 48 and then decant the spent wort before pitching? What the hell would you use for a four liter vessel?
I would appreciate any input, sorry if this has already been discussed to death, this is my first post ever!
Pivo! Pivo! Pivo!

 

[petep1980]

Lager pitching is tough to wrap your brain around sometimes. Especially since there is no consensus correct answer.

What I did on one O-fest which fermented quite well was step up from a 2l to 4l starter with one propagator smack pack. At the time I did not have a stir bar. I also pitched right at 50°F and raised the temp to 54°F throughout the rest of fermentation, then a d-rest for a couple days at 66°F and I got it from 1.056 to 1.016 (this was an extract batch).

The smack pack I used BTW was about 3 days old, so the yeast was incredible viable. I believe it was wyeast 2206?

It's funny you mention PU. I just did mine Friday. I actually am using wyeast's kolsch yeast for a pseudo lager ferment because I sold my kegger.

I did my starters at room temp and decanted them as well before pitching for the o-fest I referenced earlier. I did NOT decant for my PU.

 

[sudbuster]

PU's been my favorite beer since the seventies, when the caps were lined with cork. (Yes, I'm that old.) I've been brewing for a year now, 75 gallons and just went AG. I like to keep things simple (aerate wort by pouring between brewpot and primary 5 times is my favorite.)
I'm wondering if some experienced lagerers could share their technique on creating the starter - could you possibly dump a Wyeast Activator into a 2 liter flask with a stir bar and step up to pitching size in one step?
From what I've read to do a cold pitch would require two smack packs and 4 L of starter, would you step up at 70 degrees and then gradually cool down to 48 and then decant the spent wort before pitching? What the hell would you use for a four liter vessel?
I would appreciate any input, sorry if this has already been discussed to death, this is my first post ever!
Pivo! Pivo! Pivo!

The probability of there being one lager brewer out of a hundred here is very slim in my opinion. Virtually all are ale brewers. Lager brewers are relagated to "uncool" along with BMC. But, I am a lager brewer, and take pride in it, after all, it is the entire world's prefered beer style.

Pilsner Urquell is the reason I started brewing. It's hard to find fresh, so one must attempt to clone it for a good supply. Over many years, I have perfected a system centered on lagers and have been brewing a near perfect clone of P.U. without the skunk, along with a few others of the pilsner style.

PM me with any questions you may have. I'll help if I can. Cheers.....

 

[boo boo]

PU is my favorite also, although in bottle it tastes like any other skunked euro beer.
I have a keg of PU clone lagering and I just took a sample. Mmmm Mmmm, damn that's good.
Seems to have nailed that one.

Yes you can start with a 2 liter volume and pitch 1 smack pack in to start. After that starts ramping up, ( if you pitched into 70f wort it should only take a day or two ) you can then bump it up to a gallon. I use a 2000ml flask now, but have used a gallon growler to ferment my starter in.
When I have enough yeast, I cool down to 45f to 48f and let the yeast settle. I decant the spent wort when it is time to pitch into fermentation temperture wort.

 

[Scimmia]

But, I am a lager brewer, and take pride in it, after all, it is the entire world's prefered beer style.

Pilsners are only the world's preferred style if you consider American Lagers/American Light Lagers to be Pilsners. These styles have kind of taken over, and most don't consider them Pilsners.

It's strange to me that you take pride in it simply because you brew a style that's brewed in mass quantities. If you brew a good beer, that's something to take pride in, not because you brew something for the masses.

 

[sudbuster]

Pilsners are only the world's preferred style if you consider American Lagers/American Light Lagers to be Pilsners. These styles have kind of taken over, and most don't consider them Pilsners.

It's strange to me that you take pride in it simply because you brew a style that's brewed in mass quantities. If you brew a good beer, that's something to take pride in, not because you brew something for the masses.

I know lager brewers are a minority here, and I'm not going to get in a piss contest with you.
I take pride in it because I make a damn good pilsner. AND, because the world loves them best.... Me too.

 

[oompahpah]

Thanks for the input. To clarify, you always have to step up your starter - 2L intitially, then 4L for a couple of days, even with a stir bar. I've seen a few articles stating that using a stir bar almost doubled yeast growth, but it looks like you're always prepping two wort samples at 1.040 and sterilizing.

Speaking of sterilizing, can you just soak your vessels in PBW for half an hour and rinse, treat with Star San and consider that as sterile as boiling for 10 min?

So as a rule of thumb, volume wise you need 1/2 cup of slurry for a 1.050 wort, and chilling to 48 deg and decanting doesn't damage the yeast?

I'm having a great time with this hobby/obsession and appreciate the real world information you guys are sharing.

 

[Bru]

Has someone got a recipe for PU ? I assume its pilsner malt (unless you can get moravian 2 row, saaz and something like bohemian 2112 ?

 

[CharlosCarlies]

I'm just now getting into lager brewing (I too have absolutely fallen in love w/ a quality pilsner), so take this FWIW...but if you can't make a 4L starter why not try a few packs of dry yeast?

From what I've read the Saflager W-34/70 makes a damn fine pilsner and since I <3 <3 <3 dry yeast, that's the route I'll be going for my next few lagers.

Just a thought if making a huge starter isn't possible for you.

 

[sudbuster]

Has someone got a recipe for PU ? I assume its pilsner malt (unless you can get moravian 2 row, saaz and something like bohemian 2112 ?

Pilsner Urquell Knockoff
Traditional three decoction
Very soft (hardness <30, Ca <8, SO4 <6, TDS < 35) brewing water
Not specific for volume, multiply for your volume.
ex; 5gal batch uses 4Kg malt​

Mash in, thoroughly kneading Moravian malt using 1.85 L water per 1kg malt at 32.2 C about 10 min.

Pull the first decotion. Slowly increase decoction temp to rest at 65 C for 10min, then ramp slowly (5 to 10 min) to boiling. boil 5 min covered. Return the decoction to the mash tun gradually ( ~5 min ) stirring well to bring the mash temp to 52.8 C. Any remaining decoction may be force cooled to the mash temp and returned to the mash. Mash Ph ~5.2. Rest about 5 min, then..

Pull the second decoction. Repeat the process above with ~ 40% of the heavy mash. Return the decoction slowly ( about 20 min ) to the mash tun, again stirring to maintain even temp increase to 65 C. Maintain temp with boiling water infusions which helps thin the mash. Rest for 60 min, then..

Pull the third decoction. This time, drain off about half of the thin mash and boil for about 5 min. Stirring plays a big part in this. Return the decoction to the mash and stir for 5 min at a mash temp of 75.6 C.
Lauter/sparge for 60 min.

Boil wort 90 min. Use fresh Saaz hops(3.8 AA) at a rate of 350g/hL in three portions, 45% at start of boil, 30% at 55min left, 25% at 15 min left.

Pitching. Cool to 3.9 C and pitch WY2278 or equivalent at a rate of 15 million cells per mL. Bring the temp up to 8.9 C over a period of about 12 days.

Lager this beer for 40 days at 0.6 C

Cheers..

 

[Bru]

Thanks. The Moravian malt will be a problem though. How different is it to regular Pilsener malt ?

 

[sudbuster]

&#8482; Moravian is a registered trade mark of the Adolph Coors Brewing Company, Golden, Colorado. So one would have a problem getting some bags of malt with that name stamped on them. The general word "Moravian" , meaning from Moravia or there abouts is what most folks mean.

Forrest has some good malt for this purpose.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

4 liters is only slightly more than a gallon.

 

[MarsColonist]

What the hell would you use for a four liter vessel?

I use a glass gallon jug.. its close enough... the local grocery store sells their apple juice/cider in in them.

Return the decoction to the mash and stir for 5 min at a mash temp of 75.6 C.
Laughter for 60 min.

Non-stop joke-a-thon going on over there...

 

[sudbuster]

4 liters is only slightly more than a gallon.

The recipe is generic for volume, step up easily by simply multiplying.
I brew this regularly in 10 gal batches. It was gleened from info from P.U. Brewery and Michael Jackson's info.

 

[sudbuster]

I use a glass gallon jug.. its close enough... the local grocery store sells their apple juice/cider in in them.


Non-stop joke-a-thon going on over there...

Thanks, it's fixed. Was kinda funny though...