Starter question

[jonahk]

I just did an all grain Wit beer with White Labs 400. I never had the following experience before, so I have not been in the habit of dialing in my OG for a yeast starter before. However, this time I think my OG was in the 1050 range (above the recommended 1030-1040) and my starter was very active and foamy in the first day or so (as in: overfoaming the flask). I could have turned off my stir plate, but instead kept it on low and hoped it would subside quick enough. It did by mid day-two and I think it was fermenting a total of 2 or 2.5 days before I crashed it in the fridge. Now I realize the intense activity could have stressed the yeast too much. After brewing, I pitched the yeast and, while it was fermenting actively by the next morning, it never seemed to be bubbling away in the first days quite as chaotically as I sometimes get. I don't know what to expect with this yeast. Maybe moderate activity is fine. I just don't want to get into a position where the yeast did not perform optimally and leaves me with problems in bottle conditioning. My OG was 1056 and FG is 1030.

First, can someone tell me if they think what I experienced is perfectly fine and I should not be concerned? If you think it's possible that the yeast was stressed before pitching (or all the foaming actually might have LOST too much yeast), is there a way to cover myself? What about racking and then pitching another packet (or half) of WL 400? Is that going overboard?

Your thoughts would be very helpful. I've brewed all grain numerous times without too many issues, but it has been several years and I'm out of practice. I also seem to make one new mistake each time (which is part of the process!).

 

[Snuffy]

Why would you crash a starter? There may be a perfectly good reason, for which I'm about to get dope-slapped by the community, but if I'm about to pitch, I just crank up a sterile starter from part of my brew water, get my wort and starter close in temp and then bang her right in there while her head is all frothy and her high-beams are on.

 

[day_trippr]

I prefer not to pitch starter beer except under very unusual circumstances (eg: making up a "high krausen" starter to unstick a fermentation). Also, I keep a strain going for months by "over-building" starters to both pitch and provide enough to set aside in the fridge to use for a subsequent starter.

I often spin up a 5 liter starter. Literally have one spinning right now. In the end it's easier to manage in pint jars.

Anyway, as for the OP, this bothers me: My OG was 1056 and FG is 1030. My hope is the OP used a refractometer for both readings, so the FG is erroneous. I doubt one could spew enough of a starter to cause that kind of result...

Cheers!

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

It did by mid day-two and I think it was fermenting a total of 2 or 2.5 days before I crashed it in the fridge.

You left it on the stir plate too long. It's likely the yeast ran out of fermentables and the stir plate kept going, introducing oxygen into the starter. This is hard on the yeast. You should get the starter off the plate at or just after high krausen. Either pitch it into a beer soon after getting off the stir plate or crash it right away.

When you can't pitch it right away, the cold temperature slows the metabolism the yeasts and preserves it's trehalose/glycogen reserves (that's why you crash a starter). When oxygen is present, the yeast will use up it's reserves at a very fast pace. The yeast needs these reserves to begin the process of growth and preparing for the log phase of fermentation.

 

[hottpeper13]

I read a paper from the MBAA that had tested yeast viability in different mediums. Started with RO , tap , 1.010 up to 1.060 in 1.010 steps. The gist is RO and 1.060 had the least viable cells, the concentration of viable cells increased from 1.010 to 1.030 then leveled off some what at 1.040 and 1.050. So your starter was OK.
I've had Wit yeasts stall at 1.020 (SG 1.044) around the 2 week mark, I raise temp from 68* to 74* and it's at 1.012 (my preferred FG for the style) at 3 weeks.

And NO I can't link the paper

 

[jonahk]

Anyway, as for the OP, this bothers me: My OG was 1056 and FG is 1030. My hope is the OP used a refractometer for both readings, so the FG is erroneous. I doubt one could spew enough of a starter to cause that kind of result...

Thanks for the ideas so far. I did use a refractometer for both readings. These gravity #s are from the beginning and ending of primary fermentation (not from the beginning and ending of the starter). Not sure if the poster was misunderstanding that detail.

 

[day_trippr]

When you came up with the FG value using a refractometer, did you use anything (software, table, etc) to adjust the reading to account for the presence of alcohol? You cannot use a direct refractometer reading once alcohol is present...

Cheers!

 

[jonahk]

No. I just thought that the reading from the refractometer after fermentation was FG. Is that not correct? This is definitely not great. That's why I suspect that the yeast was not able to fully convert. Would pitching again be a way to restart fermentation? If so, would it make sense to rack first?

 

[day_trippr]

Ok, we've landed right where I suspected from the beginning. Your beer most likely fully fermented out.

The refractometer reading you took at the end of fermentation needs to be "adjusted" to compensate for the presence of alcohol. You can use a tool like the one from our host's site: https://www.brewersfriend.com/refractometer-calculator/

Skip to Part II, input the Original Gravity, then the refractometer reading at the end of fermentation. Guessing the latter was around 7.5 Brix, you'll find the corrected FG was around 1.015...

Cheers!

 

[jonahk]

Ok. So this is what comes out when I do this.

Would you suggest that I need not worry at this point and just rack as planned? No need for more yeast? I want to be sure bottle conditioning is not a problem.

 

[jonahk]

Update: I took out the hydrometer and it read 1010, so that is good (and consistent with what was just explained).

 

[hotbeer]

If you get a hydrometer, you can always double check what you are calculating with the refractometer. Then maybe you'll be a little more assured about whether you should bottle or not.

Refractometers are great for quick checks, particularly while brewing.

Glass bulb hydrometers are inexpensive for even very good ones. And if you only are going to use if for double checking your final gravity, then I'd recommend a final gravity hydrometer.

One that only reads from a narrower range of about 1.00 to 1.020. Then you get a larger distance between the point graduations and can more easily read it. Some give you graduations of less than a point.

Edit...

I was looking at Final Gravity Hydrometers on Amazon. I noticed one popular brand advertising one as a FG hydrometer. However it's range goes from 1.000 to 1.100. Even with their claimed bigger scale, it's not going to be as easy to read as one that only measures 20 or 30 points.

 

[day_trippr]

Update: I took out the hydrometer and it read 1010, so that is good (and consistent with what was just explained).

You made beer!

Cheers!