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Protein rest

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zhubbell

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So at the advice of another member I'm going to do a protein rest on my Witbier tonight. When exactly do I integrate it into the brew process?? Do I mash at my regular 152, and and then chill it down to 120-130 to allow the extra protein break down, or do I drain the first 60 minute mash out, and then do a sparge at 120-130 to further break down.....sorry if some of my terminology is wrong or confusing, this is only my second AG brew. Thanks for any help.


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You would actually dough in to end up at your protein rest - 122F typically for witbiers. You don't overshoot the protein rest otherwise you denature the enzymes that break down the protein and beta-glucanase. And I would agree with whoever recommended the protein rest for witbiers. I inadvertantly blew by mine on my last wit and it was a gluey-ass mess trying to lauter - LESSON LEARNED! :D
 
A protein rest is just another mash step done prior to the primary beta/alpha rest. A standard protein rest would be to mash in at ~120 and hold it for 20 mins, then step up to your next step (152 in your case) by infusion, decoction, direct heat or whatever other method you're using to change mash temp.
 
Ok - I mash in a 10g Rubbermaid cooler, so I could do the protein rest with half my mash water, leave it for 20 minutes, and then add the other half at the proper temperature to bring the mash to 152. Am I interpreting that correctly?


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I would recommend mashing with your full volume of water to hit protein rest temps, hold for 20min, then draw off a given volume, bring it to a boil and add it back to reach your sach. rest temp. kind of like a decoction, but without removing the grain. You can search the webz for a strike temp calc. and it will give you the volume to boil to hit your next rest temp. hope thats not too confusing.
 
Ok - I mash in a 10g Rubbermaid cooler, so I could do the protein rest with half my mash water, leave it for 20 minutes, and then add the other half at the proper temperature to bring the mash to 152. Am I interpreting that correctly?

Yes, this is the infusion method of step mashing, which works fine for conducting a protein rest. I would encourage you to consider a thinner mash than just using half the mash water; since you have a larger cooler I'd shoot for 1-1.25qt/lb on your first infusion, then calculate the needed infusion to get up to 152 and make sure your MLT has sufficient volume. If you can tell us the weight of your grain bill, we can help you with those calcs.
 
Ok - I mash in a 10g Rubbermaid cooler, so I could do the protein rest with half my mash water, leave it for 20 minutes, and then add the other half at the proper temperature to bring the mash to 152. Am I interpreting that correctly?


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You can actually do your protein rest with a very low ratio since you won't be getting anywhere near the gelation temps of your grains. What you'll see is basically a really cloudy/starchy wet grist (0.7:1 water:grain would be fine). This makes it so you don't have to use as much water (or as hot of water) to reach your proper sacc rest temps. This is the method I would opt for.

I think 20 minutes is about right.

If you do the decoction style step mash, as mentioned above, I would ensure you are using a very thick mash (not the liquidy part) otherwise you run the risk of damaging the amylase conversion enzymes. But, again, I would opt for an infusion rather than decoction to reach your next step.
 
I'm doing a 5g batch, and my grain bill is:
5.5# briess 2 row
3.5# wheat, flaked
2# wheat malt (I was Ganna do 5.5# flaked wheat but the brew store didn't have enough and said this would be a fine substitution)
.5# rice hills to prevent a stuck sparge. Look good?

Also, brew store said don't mill flaked wheat or rice hulls, this is correct right? Just wanna make sure because they've led me wrong before.


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Yes, don't mill rice hulls as you want their size to help create a filter for your lauter. There's also no need to mill flaked wheat but that's less of a concern. I think 0.5 lb of rice hull given a good protein rest will suffice, but you'll want to drain slowly so you don't compact the grainbed.
 
It seems wilconrad and I differ on our opinions of protein mash thickness. Here's where I get the thick protein rest ratio:

The Protein Rest

A rest in the temperature range between 113–138 °F (44–59 °C) has traditionally been called a protein rest. These days, many brewing scientists do not think that much protein degradation occurs during mashing and this is part of the reason that it is left to the maltster. However, it’s worth reviewing the possible enzyme actions that may occur in this range.

There are two specific types of enzymes that were thought to be active in this range — proteinase and peptidase enzymes, collectively known as the proteolytic enzymes.

Proteinase is an enzyme that works on longer-chained proteins turning them into medium length chains. Peptidase enzymes chop up the moderate to short chains and break them down to their component form. Conveniently, these two enzyme groups have slightly different optimal temperature ranges, so you can hypothetically favor one or the other.

Brewers do not want a lot of longer chain proteins in their wort. A high level of big proteins can lead to haze and instability. However, brewers do want medium length protein chains because they are beneficial for a beer’s body and for foam retention. The optimal range for peptidase is between 113–128 °F (45–53 °C) while the optimal range for proteinase is 131–137 °F (55–58 °C). A 15–30 minute hold in the proteinase range was thought to diminish haze, but not negatively impact foam or body.

One important point to note is that the low temperature rests have been found to be more effective with thick mashes. Therefore you may want to mash-in when utilizing these low temperature rests between 0.8–1.0 qts./lb. (1.7–2.1 L/kg). You can then thin the mash with boiling water when raising the temperature to the saccharification rest(s).

Some beta-glucanase activity also occurs in the protein rest range and some brewers perform a “protein rest” for this reason. Unless you have a very good reason — for example, if you know you have a high-protein malt on your hands — avoiding a rest in the 113–128 °F (45–53 °C) range is probably prudent as you will potentially avoid any problems with head retention. When brewing with undermodified malt, you should rest in the 131–137 °F (55–58 °C) range — at a minimum, it will break down some gums.

Whether or not meaningful amounts of protein degradation are occurring in this range, a rest here does affect the quality of your wort. For example, the time and stirring that goes on in a step mash may promote better extraction efficiencies — especially for homebrewers not used to stirring their mashes or those who typically get marginal extraction rates.

Source: https://byo.com/stories/item/1497-the-science-of-step-mashing

And you are working with a high protein mash therefore you don't need to worry about the paragraph after the bolded one ;)
 
I have more than a half grain, but read somewhere not to exceed 5% of your grain bill once rice hulls


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I'm doing a 5g batch, and my grain bill is:
5.5# briess 2 row
3.5# wheat, flaked
2# wheat malt (I was Ganna do 5.5# flaked wheat but the brew store didn't have enough and said this would be a fine substitution)
.5# rice hills to prevent a stuck sparge. Look good?

Also, brew store said don't mill flaked wheat or rice hulls, this is correct right? Just wanna make sure because they've led me wrong before.

Correct, don't mill the rice hulls.

According to beersmith, you'll want to add 13.5qt of water at 131 for your first step (122) and then 8.3qt at 210 for your second step. This will consume a total mash volume of ~6.5gal so you'll have plenty of room in your MLT for adjustment additions if needed.
 
It seems wilconrad and I differ on our opinions of protein mash thickness. Here's where I get the thick protein rest ratio:

And you are working with a high protein mash therefore you don't need to worry about the paragraph after the bolded one ;)

yeah, I do recall seeing that mentioned somewhere before. I just think thick mashes are a PITA so I don't bother going below 1.00. But if you'd like to use a thicker mash you can use this calculator to get your addition temps/volumes:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/
 
yeah, I do recall seeing that mentioned somewhere before. I just think thick mashes are a PITA so I don't bother going below 1.00. But if you'd like to use a thicker mash you can use this calculator to get your addition temps/volumes:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/

I agree that for amalyse conversion rest, thick mashes are a pain as you approach 1.0 and less than that is almost impossible. As the starches start to gelate it becomes increasingly harder and harder to stir. However, for the protein rest which is far below the gelation temperatures of barley and wheat, it's not much trouble since the grains are remaining powdery and separate. After the protein rest, you can use whatever amount of hot water that is needed to reach your next step at the ratio you'd like. I generally shoot for the 1.15 ratio range or less for low temp sacc rests, and 1.5-2 ratio range for higher temp sacc rests depending on my MLT available space. The reason for low temp low ratio sacc rest is that beta amaylase is more inefficient than alpha, and works better "in a confined space" and denatures less quickly (at least according to the literature I've read on the subject).
 
Ok OP, if you'd like to follow the thicker mash schedule you can do the following:

9.2qt @ 135, hold for 20 mins (step temp: 122, ratio: 0.8)
add 6qt @ 210, hold for 60 mins (step temp: 152, ratio: 1.3)
 
Here's what I did:
3.5g at 130 (temps listed are mash temps, not temp before adding to grain) for 20 min
Add 2.5 boiling, hit a tad high so I added an Ice cube and hit 154, left it for 60 min (by the end it was 150, that seems like alot of hear loss, no?)

Then drained, adding 3G at 180 for 10 min, drained, and added to the boil kettle

Pre-boil gravity is 1.049, and volume looks perfect for a 5g product (which wil actually be 5.5g with the blood orange concoction added to it at the end.


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ImageUploadedByHome Brew1395189076.544982.jpg
Huge proteins this time!


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I would recommend mashing with your full volume of water to hit protein rest temps, hold for 20min, then draw off a given volume, bring it to a boil and add it back to reach your sach. rest temp. kind of like a decoction, but without removing the grain. You can search the webz for a strike temp calc. and it will give you the volume to boil to hit your next rest temp. hope thats not too confusing.

It's too late now (and the OP didn't follow this advice anyway), but i just wanted to mention that this shouldn't be done this way.

By pulling out liquid and not grain, sort of a liquid decoction I guess, you'd have some pH issues along with the heat and have some serious risks of tannin extraction. The only time it's acceptable to pull liquid to reach the next temperature rest is to go to mash out.

For a decoction, it's important to pull mostly grain and just enough liquid to keep the grain from burning on the bottom. It has to do with denaturing the enzymes as well as pH concerns.

Anyway, a protein rest of 15-20 minutes will be fine for a witbier and that should be a great beer!
 
ImageUploadedByHome Brew1395192569.109444.jpg
I was alittle bit over, about .5 gallon, so I have to leave some behind cuz I don't have anymore fermenters, but the bottom I left has tons of these crazy huge proteins (I think that's what they are), am I Ganna be disappointed I didn't get these huge chunks? I could fish them out


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View attachment 186852
I was alittle bit over, about .5 gallon, so I have to leave some behind cuz I don't have anymore fermenters, but the bottom I left has tons of these crazy huge proteins (I think that's what they are), am I Ganna be disappointed I didn't get these huge chunks? I could fish them out


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Gravity will come into play, and they'll settle on the bottom with the trub if you got some in your fermenter. Otherwise, leave as much of them behind as you can. It'll be fine either way. No worries!
 
Final gravity was 1.049.
How would I figure brew house efficiency with the orange addition? 7 blood oranges, zest of, and inner fruit only, brought up to 160 with .5g water, held for 10 minutes, then cooled, and added to wort before pitching yeast (including .5g of orange "juice"
Also - fruit in muslin bag put in carboy for fermentation.


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ImageUploadedByHome Brew1395194908.770574.jpg
 
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