Primary-no Secondary-Keg time frame

[Longtrain]

I have made a fair amount of beer, with good results, although my time table of when to move, finings, kegging has been slip shot at best. Trying to nail down a schedule to get consistent results and quality.

Just brewed two 5 gallon batches of an ESB using Safale-05. Added whilfloc to the last 10 minutes of the boil. Got good hot breaks and cooled the wort rapidly to 72F and pitched the yeast. Strong fermentation for about 5 days and hit a good FG. So far so good IMO. Beer is clearing in the primary now at the 10 day mark.

So, how long should the next process take (to kegging)?
Is fining with gelatin necessary and or recommended? Cold crashing needed with gelatin?
I want the yeast to have enough time to finish its process, work to get a clear beer.

I appreciate your time and information.

Tony
Longtrain

 

[Jag75]

Well I dont coldcrash before I keg . I however let my beer sit in the fermenter for 3 weeks . I check my gravity then keg. I just let the beer do its thing and I have got really clear beer . I think people tend to undervalue time and patience.

 

[mongoose33]

And just for the contrast, I always cold crash before I keg. It helps yeast flocculate, and helps clear the beer.

How long is beer- and process-specific. I'm drinking a Kolsch right now that was 11 days from pitching the yeast to drinking it out of the keg, carbonated. I allow the beer to self-carbonate as much as I can in my conical, then hit it with a burst of CO2 for about 6 hours after kegging. Cold beer absorbs CO2 more readily than warm beer. The joke about this particular beer is we don't know what conditioning does to help it, as it never lasts long enough to find out.

But I have also had beers that need 30 days or even more of conditioning before they smoothed out. So it just depends. In the case of your ESB, I'd expect you're going to be closer to 30 than 11 days.

But for me, it is rare that it's more than 14 days before I keg the beer. And rare that it's much less. I think the beer benefits from sitting on the yeast for 2 weeks, including once the krausen falls I ramp it up to about 69-71 degrees for a normal ale, or a diacetyl rest for a lager. Couple days there, then back down to ferm temp and I let it just sit. Then 36 hours or so before kegging, I'll crash it down to 38 degrees.


You asked if "this" or "that" is needed. Well, none of it is needed--it only depends on what you're trying to do. I always use Whirlfloc, sometimes use finings if it's a crystal clear lager I'm trying to produce.

Further, there's no one right way to make beer. There are different processes that can be successful. There will be others who weigh in here about how they do it differently than do I, and their beer is good. So theexact details don't matter that much, as long as you're not straying too far from a fairly standard way of brewing.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

They are all questions for you to answer for your preferences.

To start with your current beer: US05 is a 'clean' American style yeast (not normally used for ESB). It takes a while to clear and clean up after itself. Most brewers leave it about 3 weeks in primary, while an English yeast might be ready after 7 to 10 days. How important is crystal clear beer to you? If it's a high priority, a cold crash with gelatin is probably worth doing. For me, I do anything I can to avoid oxygen exposure and don't mind a bit of haze, so I don't cold crash and don't use gelatin (there are methods to avoid sucking in oxygen with a cold crash though), although I have in the past and it does give nice, clear beer. Some brewers, myself included, prefer to transfer to keg with a couple of points of gravity remaining (typically about day 5 for US05) with a spunding valve to give natural carbonation from the remaining sugars, with conditioning happening in the keg. This gives far more sediment in the keg, but again reduces oxygen. Again, the point is, what are YOUR priorities?

To answer the questions at the bottom of the OP: The time to kegging is typically:
Three to seven days if transferring with a few gravity points remaining for keg spunding.
Seven to 21 days with an expressive/estery/phenolic yeast (eg. English, hefe, Belgian).
14 to 21 days with American ale (clean) yeasts.
Highly variable with lagers.

Gelatin finings? If you use gelatin, you need to cold-crash for it to be effective on anything other than suspended yeast. Most of the haze forming stuff isn't formed until the beer's cold, so it can't be fined (dropped out of suspension) unless the beer's cold. Do you need to cold crash and use gelatin? No. It comes down to how important clear beer is for you. It can help speed up the grain-to-glass timeframe if that's important to you as well. It's not to me.

 

[Longtrain]

Thanks for your input. As I mentioned, I have made really good beer in the past, but my methods/time frames varied a bit. The recipe for the ESB was found on the web and called for US05 (kinda wondered about that myself, but it worked well in the past).

I'm going to go 21 days and take a look, from what I'm seeing now, it looks that it will be fine. I have done gelatin and am not adverse to using it, but we'll see what 21 days holds.

I'll post my findings, again thanks for the info.

 

[Longtrain]

Well, I went a bit belong 21 days due to traveling. Both batches cleared very well without cold crashing and or fining (although due to the house air running it is quite cold in the basement). The beer has been kegged and is quite good. Nice color and creamy head, enough hops to quench your thirst without venturing into a IPA category. So, I’ve added the 21 day rest to my brew schedule. Gives it plenty of time to clear and the yeast to do its thing.

 

[kh54s10]

I personally think there is no such thing as a timetable. I have gone as little as 2 weeks primary, then to keg for a week for the carbonation to stabilize. It was clear. I have gone two months in primary and the beer never cleared. I have cold crashed and had cloudy beer. I have started out with a cloudy beer that cleared in time. One cleared when I was on the last 1/4 of the keg.

Most of them clear (Irish Moss is all I use) in about 2 weeks. Some take a little longer.

 

[Sadu]

I think the timetable is important if you are trying to go grain to glass in say a week, otherwise it's a very broad set of guidelines. For me it's driven by a few things. Firstly, is the beer ready to move to the next stage? If not, it gets more time at the current stage.
Secondly, do I have the time and equipment to move it to the next stage? If I'm busy in the evenings or if there is no keg available then I'll leave it cold crashing in primary an extra week. No big deal.
The limits on how long beer should sit at each stage are very broad.

 

[Yooper]

I usually have my ales in the fermenter for 10-14 days or so, depending if I"m dryhopping or not. I use more flocculant yeast (almost never S05 as I dislike it), so the beer is finished and clear, and more than ready to package by then.

I don't cold crash. I rack the beer into the purged keg, purge it a couple of times, and put it in the kegerator at 30 psi for 36 hours. Then I purge, and reset the regulator to 12 psi and keep it there for the life of the keg.

I'm usually sampling the beer by day 14 if it's not a dryhopped beer, day 17 or so if it is.

 

[Longtrain]

Thanks for all the input, always learning.

I’m try to be kinda of precise in most things I do, early beer making messed with me a bit, so anxious to get to drink the fruits of the labor. I cold crashed, different finings to get it clear, forced kegging, all in that vein. But I’ve learned that time is usually a benefit in my brewing. So, 21 days has forced me to wait and the result is a very clear, tasty beer with a beautiful color and a white foamy head.

If I choose to leave Safale 005, what would be a classic British ale yeast that has a high floccuance?

 

[mattdee1]

IMO, the best schedule is the one that you can conveniently accommodate alongside all of the other things in life vying for your time (work, other hobbies, family, etc.) Luckily, as mentioned multiple times in this thread, there is a fair bit of "wiggle room" in the timing of the various steps, so a bit of planning can help you bend the process to work for your specific situation.

Assuming good brewing and fermentation practices are in place, then I think most beers will kind of "converge" toward the same final result by ~6-8 weeks after brew day.

I've followed all kinds of different schedules and the only thing that really seems to change is the experience of tasting the very first samples. Which makes perfect sense because the "age" of the very first samples directly depends on the schedule followed.

I rarely leave ales in primary for more than 10-12 days before packaging. There isn't anything beneficial that would happen to the beer sitting for another 1-2 weeks in that fermentor that can't happen to it in the keg, especially clearing.

 

[cswant88]

2 weeks in the primary is pretty typical for me. I don't usually have time to fiddle with anything throughout the week so all my brew related tasks happen on the weekend. I don't feel like 1 week is long enough, so packaging usually happens on the 2nd weekend after brew day. I give em a 24 hr burst carb at 40psi, then drop to serving pressure for about a week. After that, I'm drinking it, be it cloudy or clear.

I'm halfway through a keg of altbier that I packaged on June 22nd, and it's just starting to really get nice and clear. I think the yeast had a big part to play in that, low floccing Imperial Kaiser yeast. I can tell you it tasted just as good cloudy as it does clear.

 

[Longtrain]

I’ve had my share of cloudy and clear beer, struggled with chill haze and who knows what else early on in my brewing. I agree they all tasted pretty good. But, with that being said, handing someone a home brew that’s crystal clear, removes the follow up question, is this a wheat beer? I poured a couple last night, and they were crystal clear and most enjoyable. Thanks for the input.

 

[kh54s10]

I’ve had my share of cloudy and clear beer, struggled with chill haze and who knows what else early on in my brewing. I agree they all tasted pretty good. But, with that being said, handing someone a home brew that’s crystal clear, removes the follow up question, is this a wheat beer? I poured a couple last night, and they were crystal clear and most enjoyable. Thanks for the input.

While my non-brewing friends might notice a cloudy beer, they would not equate cloudy with wheat beers. None have ever said anything about cloudy, they remark at the taste and usually ask for more. Or, "When are you going to make the next batch?"

I do like to have crystal clear, but taste is far more important to me.

 

[mattdee1]

I do like to have crystal clear, but taste is far more important to me.

Me as well. I just follow the best process I can and if the beer is clear, great; if not, I don't sweat it.

 

[djonesax]

Unless I'm in a hurry, my beers sit in primary for 2-3 weeks and I don't really touch them at all. I generally keep them at my desired
fermentation for a couple weeks and then remove them from the fridge for a week or open the door and shut it off. I used to take gravity reading often and all that but now, I just try to have the set it and forget it attitude unless like I said I am in a hurry. I use US-05 often because its always available and I have found that if I package too early, there are often off flavors that clear up as the beer ages. So I try to just leave it alone for another couple weeks after fermentation is complete just for good measure. Brewing a couple brews back to back to have a surplus is a good way to suppress the urge to drink green beer and give it time to mature. Some of the best advice really is to just be patient and let the yeast do there job.

I cold crash my light ales and lagers and often use gelatin but a little extra time and patience as others have said will do the same thing. Gelatin will get clear beer in a couple days where otherwise for me it seems to take a couple weeks to get crystal clear beer. The last keg I kicked, I didn't use gelatin, and it was fairly clear but the last beer I poured before kicking was crystal clear. That was a BIAB with mostly pilsner malt where I squeezed the bag like hell too.

 

[Pkrd]

For ales using yeast I know and trust:
Ramp temperature up to 21° around day 8, cold crash around day 10-12. 24hrs later add the gelatine, keg the following day. Take a gravity reading after kegging just to check attenuation and ABV.

Added a few days, and actually monitored FG when I bottled.

 

[snarf7]

So much misinformation in this thread. Do you think commercial brewers (even small craft breweries) wait 3-4 weeks for primary to be done?! Hell no, time is money and tying up equipment needlessly is wasteful. When you hit your FG, it's done, period. There is no magical 'cleaning up' that happens afterwards, you're just wasting time. Now if you're busy and can't deal with it right away, there's no harm in leaving it on the yeast for longer, but I wouldn't go longer than 3-4 weeks. There's also no harm in letting it go a couple extra days after getting your FG reading just in case your calculations are slightly off. But if I'm in a rush and need to get it done (upcoming party for example), I'm aggressively waiting for that FG to hit then racking it and pressurizing it immediately.

Now that said, the conditioning process is a totally different beast, it just takes the time it takes, you can't rush it. Even using gelatin or a fining to help to clarify will not make it taste ready until it is. I find most the beer I brew is decent and drinkable after 2 weeks conditioning, but much better at 3-4 weeks.

 

[BobBailey]

I wait until the Krausen has fallen and the beer begins to drop clear. Easy to see when the top inch or so is darker in color and the cloudiness is gone. I then cold crash until it drops clear and keg.

If dry hopping I'll add the dry hops when the Krausen has visibly subsided. I leave the dry hops in for a couple of days and then cold crash for another 3 or 4 days, after which I keg whether it's clear or not.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

So much misinformation in this thread.

Most people in this thread have described their own process and why they use it - that's certainly not misinformation - it's useful discussion.

 

[snarf7]

Most people in this thread have described their own process and why they use it - that's certainly not misinformation - it's useful discussion.

It is when they say things that are patently untrue.

 

[BobBailey]

Can you quote something in this thread that's, "patently untrue"?

 

[snarf7]

Can you quote something in this thread that's, "patently untrue"?

Sure, this for example:

To start with your current beer: US05 is a 'clean' American style yeast (not normally used for ESB). It takes a while to clear and clean up after itself. Most brewers leave it about 3 weeks in primary, while an English yeast might be ready after 7 to 10 days.

The yeast doesn't need to 'clean up' anything, it's done fermenting... unless you got really sloppy with your temps and detect diacetyl then maybe a couple days extra might benefit you. And personally I don't know anyone who waits 3 weeks for US05, 2 weeks max is all that is needed 99% of the time

 

[BobBailey]

I assume you're disputing, " It takes a while to clear and clean up after itself." and. " Most brewers leave it about 3 weeks in primary". I've actually had it take almost that long for the Krausen to fall, and don't doubt for a minute than many others have had the same experience. Is not the Krausen falling part of "cleaning up after itself"?

The word, "most" may be an exaggeration from your point of view, but certainly is not patently untrue. Your idea of cleaning up may not be the same as other's. Normally I don't call people out on things like this, but you offered nothing constructive to the OP at all. Is that not the point of responding to a request for information or advice?
Maybe your opinion differs on that too.

 

[snarf7]

I assume you're disputing, " It takes a while to clear and clean up after itself." and. " Most brewers leave it about 3 weeks in primary". I've actually had it take almost that long for the Krausen to fall, and don't doubt for a minute than many others have had the same experience. Is not the Krausen falling part of "cleaning up after itself"?

The word, "most" may be an exaggeration from your point of view, but certainly is not patently untrue. Your idea of cleaning up may not be the same as other's. Normally I don't call people out on things like this, but you offered nothing constructive to the OP at all. Is that not the point of responding to a request for information or advice?
Maybe your opinion differs on that too.

Anyone is free to spout whatever nonsense they want, but it's not going to make it any more true, sorry.

I've had it take 3 weeks too, but that was a fussy Saison yeast that just worked away very slowly. I pitched the recommended amount but I'm willing to bet if I pitched an extra pack it would have wrapped up sooner. But that's a single outlier among hundreds of brews, so yeah saying 'most' for a yeast like US05 is patently untrue. Same thing with the whole 'clean up' thing, that's one of those persistent myths that gets thrown around constantly and it's just not true. Talk a professional with their own brewery, they're going grain to glass in 2-3 weeks, they're not waiting around for some mythical yeast clean up process to happen. There's nothing for it to clean up unless your process is poor to begin with and you introduced excessive diacetyl or aceteldehyde because your temps were all over the map, but why would you want to introduce an unnecessary problem that makes it take longer? Maybe you like wasting your time, I sure don't. The yeast is done when you hit FG, everything after that is conditioning.

 

[BobBailey]

If you had read my response to the OP, you'd see that I don't waste any time getting into the keg. The only time I've wasted here is reading your responses and thinking you might understand that your experience and opinion isn't necessarily the end all and be all. Done wasting my time now. Good night.

 

[snarf7]

 

[Gnomebrewer]

so yeah saying 'most' for a yeast like US05 is patently untrue.

Have you taken the time to talk to other brewers about their process? If you do, you'll find that two to three weeks is the common length of time to leave clean beers (US05) in fermenter. Patently untrue? I don't think so. You might like to argue (more politely that how you have done so far though please) that it isn't necessary, but you can't argue that it isn't what most brewers do.

Same thing with the whole 'clean up' thing, that's one of those persistent myths that gets thrown around constantly and it's just not true. Talk a professional with their own brewery, they're going grain to glass in 2-3 weeks, they're not waiting around for some mythical yeast clean up process to happen.

Clean-up is not untrue/persistent myth, but is closely linked to process, ingredients and yeast. Professionals have healthy yeast on hand, use known recipes and processes, have top quality oxygenation equipment, temperature controlled conical fermenters etc. Most homebrewers don't. With a professional setup, a brewer (even at home) can turn around quality beer faster. The best advice for new brewers though is to let it go a bit longer. It won't hurt anything and will most likely improve the beer quality. A brewer wanting more advanced techniques to shorten the primary timeframe would presumably post in a more advanced forum, rather than the beginners forum. Also, I notice that you say clean-up is a myth but conditioning will happen in it's own time......do you think conditioning is a magic process? Maybe if you tried leaving your beer in primary for a bit longer, you'd find you didn't need 3-4 weeks of 'conditioning'. You might have noticed that brewers who leave their beer for two to three weeks in primary then crash chill and carbonate are drinking their beer sooner than you are! The flip side to that though, is that most brewers (after they have a pipeline) aren't in a rush to get their beer ready. Note that the OP wasn't asking about rushing beer, but wants a good, reliable timeline to make quality beer.

 

[snarf7]

Have you taken the time to talk to other brewers about their process?

Of course. There are too distinct camps. The first is rooted in science and uses the scientific method to evaluate different techniques and processes, the second are the fuddy duddys who just keep parotting the same misinformation they've been taught over and over. I prefer to be drinking my beer in under a month, if you want to wait 2 because you think this or that, then knock yourself out, far be it from me to tell you what to do.

Clean-up is not untrue/persistent myth, but is closely linked to process, ingredients and yeast.

Yes it really is. Do yourself a favor and do a little experiment. Get your process fixed so that you aren't intrucing any off flavors in the first place, then rack it right after you hit FG. But you have to taste, always taste. If it tastes off and you taste butteriness or it tastes green like unripened apple then you ****ed something up, let it sit for 2 days and it should clear up. 2 days, not 2 weeks.

Professionals have healthy yeast on hand, use known recipes and processes, have top quality oxygenation equipment, temperature controlled conical fermenters etc. Most homebrewers don't. With a professional setup, a brewer (even at home) can turn around quality beer faster.

You don't need fancy equipment to make good beer. And you don't need a professional setup to do it quickly. Buy fresh yeast, overpitch, hit your mash temp and fermentation temps perfectly and maintain them and you're 90% of the way there.

The best advice for new brewers though is to let it go a bit longer. It won't hurt anything and will most likely improve the beer quality.

That I agree with. But I still think it's important to not spread misinformation and be forthright with what is going on.

Also, I notice that you say clean-up is a myth but conditioning will happen in it's own time......do you think conditioning is a magic process?

I probably could have worded that better. The time it will take to be the perfect pour id dependent on the conditioning length. For example I have a lager I just racked up about 2 weeks ago, it tastes delicious and I've enjoyed a couple pints already. But it's not yet dropped clear so it's not a perfect pour yet. I find lagers usually hit that mark around 3-4 weeks, ales and wheats are quicker but there is defiitely variation in how long it takes to get to the perfect pour.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Do yourself a favor and do a little experiment. Get your process fixed so that you aren't intrucing any off flavors in the first place, then rack it right after you hit FG.

I think you're missing the point of what I have said - most (at least many) brewers leave clean yeast for two to three weeks then rack to keg. It's a consistent and proven method.

My process is to ferment in kegs, spunding towards the end of fermentation and using closed loop transfer to the serving keg. If I wanted to, I could be drinking carbonated beer in a week using this method (but I'm never in a rush - there's always beer on hand). I've experimented enough with the yeast strains I regularly use (which are all banked on slants under mineral oil) to know which ones I like to under-pitch, which ones to over-pitch, which ones to ferment cool, which ones warm, when to ramp etc. Would I suggest these processes to a beginner? No. I suggest the process that is known to work well and consistently - two to three weeks in primary, no secondary. Then, as the brewers skill and equipment progresses (things like fermentation control, starters, oxygenation) they can start to make decisions about how to change their process if they want to.

I prefer to be drinking my beer in under a month, if you want to wait 2 because you think this or that, then knock yourself out, far be it from me to tell you what to do.

Who said anything about two months? Two to three weeks in primary, into keg then chilled (or vice versa) and carbonated. That's three to four weeks total. But again, the purpose of this thread wasn't about making beer in the fastest time (that's not the goal for most home brewers) - it was about making consistently good quality beer.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Get your process fixed so that you aren't intrucing any off flavors in the first place

Why do you feel the need to be condescending? I'm happy with my process. I don't need to fix it.

 

[snarf7]

I think you're missing the point of what I have said - most (at least many) brewers leave clean yeast for two to three weeks then rack to keg. It's a consistent and proven method.

Nope, not at all. In fact I agreed with you on that point. What I take exception to is this notion that you have to let the yeast 'clean up' after fermentation, you don't, that's a persistent myth. instead of perpetuating that myth, just tell the beginner the truth, like this for example:

"When you're getting started you're bound to make mistakes, so while you're learning it's best to follow this basic timeline. If you have made an error and have some off flavors after fermentation then this additional time in the fermenter will sometimes be able to correct those, so it is a good practice while learning. Once you have your process nailed down, you'll be able to turn beer around much quicker"
See? It's being honest with them, not filling their head with myths.

But again, the purpose of this thread wasn't about making beer in the fastest time (that's not the goal for most home brewers) - it was about making consistently good quality beer.

Funny, anytime I make a somewhat sweeping statement you imply I'm speaking only for myself and not the greater population of homebrewers as a whole, but when it's you talking you apparently speak for 'most' of them no matter how incorrect what you're saying is. I think that says all I need to know about you, enjoy your day buddy.