Another yeast pitch question...and D-rest

[hilljack13]

I know a good bit of German lagers/pils are around the 5 to 5.5 ABV range. Over the past year I have had almost zero luck getting any test batch to turn out decent. I am either very sensitive to diacetyl or something in my process just isn't right because it is always present.

I have had only one beer sit 4 months that was decent.

So just thinking, I realize all these test are in the 6%+ abv range and I never considered pitching more yeast. I usually go 4.6g/gal which is an equivalent to 2 packs in a normal 5 gal batch (11.5gx2 = 23g; /5 = 4.6g).

I am thinking of trying a very light trial. Something with OG ~1.050 or less and pitch the same amount and keep to the fermentation schedule I am using.
Primary @52F for 10 days
Rise to 65F over 3 day ramp, stay for 7-8 days,
Crash/lager to 34F for 28 days.
Any thoughts if this process is off is appreciated.

 

[camonick]

What yeast are you using?

 

[hilljack13]

All the tests were with 34/70. I have S23, S189 on hand as well. I have used 189 once, and as I just went back and looked at the batches, it was the one that came out good after 4 months. Starting to wonder if I just answered my own question.

 

[camonick]

All the tests were with 34/70. I have S23, S189 on hand as well. I have used 189 once, and as I just went back and looked at the batches, it was the one that came out good after 4 months. Starting to wonder if I just answered my own question.

Interesting. I use 34/70 almost exclusively and have never had diacetyl problems. I ferment at 54° and never do a D rest. I know some people are ultra sensitive to it, but I’ve never had anyone comment about it, even some I’ve sent to competitions.

 

[hilljack13]

Only other thing I can think of is the LBMB might not be sealing tight. I do put a few 2lb weights on the lid to keep it from rising, but I guess that doesn't guarantee O2 isn't getting in from somewhere.

Or, I have never used yeast nutrients. I have been meaning to try.

 

[Immocles]

I use a ton of 34/70 as well and haven’t had any issues. I will say that your D-rest is probably too late in the fermentation, though. Like @camonick I often let it ride mid 50s, but when I do decide to warm up for a rest, it’s before ten days. Fermentation normally takes off the next day for me. I monitor with a tilt these days, but prior to that I would ramp up while it was still actively fermenting. Been slightly different with each beer, but glossing over some of my charts show it closer to 5 days.
Pitching a ton of yeast is important for lagers. I generally brew 3g batches, in the 4.8%-5.3% range and direct pitch a single packet.

As for the LBMB, do you get bubbles? That’ll tell you if it seals. And as far as O2 ingress, are you getting oxygen suck back when you crash? Could possibly be misinterpreting the off flavor

 

[hilljack13]

I use a ton of 34/70 as well and haven’t had any issues. I will say that your D-rest is probably too late in the fermentation, though. Like @camonick I often let it ride mid 50s, but when I do decide to warm up for a rest, it’s before ten days. Fermentation normally takes off the next day for me. I monitor with a tilt these days, but prior to that I would ramp up while it was still actively fermenting. Been slightly different with each beer, but glossing over some of my charts show it closer to 5 days.
Pitching a ton of yeast is important for lagers. I generally brew 3g batches, in the 4.8%-5.3% range and direct pitch a single packet.

As for the LBMB, do you get bubbles? That’ll tell you if it seals. And as far as O2 ingress, are you getting oxygen suck back when you crash? Could possibly be misinterpreting the off flavor

Some same. I use tilts to check progress and I haven't had any issues with fermentation starting slow. Usually see activity within 24 hrs if not sooner. I had a feeling I was going in late so with the rest so I'll probably start the ramp up around day 5 on the next go. I have done one warm ferment with 34/70 and it came out better than any cold ferment so far.

I do see normal action from the air lock. I don't recall visually seeing any suck back when crashing, although it could happen as I don't check it everyday.

I think I have a different palate and have wondered if it isn't something else. Although it does get buttery, one I have now is just really off in a different way. I can't explain, but I am one that thinks all IPAs taste the same too. I couldn't explain a good taste other than "yeah, it's good". Probably not helping my lagers in any way.

 

[Immocles]

I had a feeling I was going in late so with the rest so I'll probably start the ramp up around day 5 on the next go. I have done one warm ferment with 34/70 and it came out better than any cold ferment so far.

It’s somewhere to start anyways. Especially if you felt the warm ferment was an improvement. There’s also nothing wrong with doing the warm ferments. I’ve been meaning to try one but my basement gets very cold in the late fall to early spring so I just take advantage of it.

I do see normal action from the air lock. I don't recall visually seeing any suck back when crashing, although it could happen as I don't check it everyday.

If you’re crashing from high 60s to 30s, it will cause a vacuum and suck air in. I use a cold crash guardian. It captures fermentation gas for that purpose. Allows me to transfer to keg without opening the fermenter. Some folks rig up Mylar balloons and DIY it.
Could be a non issue with what you’re tasting, but just a heads up.

Cold crash guardian

 

[hilljack13]

Nice. Always learning something new here!

 

[Basspaleale]

I used 34/70 for years and made some, IMO, pretty damn good German Pilsners. I have sense switched to WLP830 and ferment at 48 deg. for 30 days with no D-rest. I then taste it. If I taste the slightest diacetyl, I leave it another week (it's rare to taste any at the 30 day mark). I then transfer to serving kegs and cold crash in the frig. I can usually tap in 3 days with a very clear pilsner, German Pils is the only beer I make now.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Couple things:
-does anyone else taste it? Give other folks some without telling them you think there is an issue
-if you still have some examples of these beers do a forced diacetyl test

I run my lagers 10-14 days at 50-52 before doing a d-rest, 3 days at 63, never had an issue with the yeast not taking care of it. I don't use 34/70, though.

 

[hilljack13]

Couple things:
-does anyone else taste it? Give other folks some without telling them you think there is an issue
-if you still have some examples of these beers do a forced diacetyl test

I run my lagers 10-14 days at 50-52 before doing a d-rest, 3 days at 63, never had an issue with the yeast not taking care of it. I don't use 34/70, though.

I am the only one that drinks in my house. I had thought about offering to send a few bottles out for feedback.
I have three sitting now I can do a forced test on. I may run that later today.

After some reading and info received here, I think part of the problem is 1) low aeration and 2) O2 suck back when crashing. I'll target those two first and see how the beer comes out. I've got one batch ready to mill. I will probably do a second and just let it ferm for a couple of weeks, if not a month before doing anything.

As always, thanks for all the advice!

 

[jdubdvdt]

Some good advice in here, but I will sum it up with my own research and experiences.

Lighter lagers are honestly some of the hardest beers to brew. There is no room for errors to hide. I was always nervous to do lagers, but I am not anymore after a lot of research and have had great success and very few batches had slight off flavors where ale yeasts might have not shown as much error. My lagers have been very well received in my homebrew club - planning to enter my lagers into competitions finally.

With that being said in order of how brewing would go.

• 60 minute minimum boils if all grain. 90 minutes is preferred if pilsner is used (to me, this is a debated topic these days).
• Use yeast nutrient in the last 10 minutes boil.
• Chill it quickly (get it below 170F as fast as you can (I have seen people have sanitized make up water to add at the end of boil drop the temp quicker)
• Vigorously aerate your wort. Oxygen stone or shaking.
• Don't underpitch, always use (2) sachets for a 5-7gallon batch (w34/70 and similar yeast at lager temperature fermentations). If making a starter with liquid yeast, go as big as you can.
• After 50-60% attenuation go ahead and start to ramp/raise your temperature for the diacetyl rest and hold it there until the end. No reason to keep it at lager temps when it has already had peak cell growth - you won't get off flavors.
• Don't cold crash if you can't prevent oxygen suckback.

Edit: I'll clarify I do measure fermentation and attenuation with a floating hydrometer. But you can take samples after a few days of heavy airlock activity. Or if you like the easiest solution, when you notice the airlock activity is slowing down go ahead and ramp the temp for the diacetyl rest.

Depending on the temperature for W34/70 I can tell if it was fermented warm, but if you start cool during peak cell growth and then let it ride you won't be able to tell a difference (unless you're a prodigy). Most say they can't tell a difference on warm fermented vs cool on W34/70, but anything above 68F I get a unique ester and have called out some breweries on it. It could be a desired ester for some.

 

[jdauria]

You could try adding ALDC at yeast pitch. It's an enzyme that reduces diacetyl One dropper full per 5 gallons. It also works great to reduce hop creep in dry hopped beers. While I have never really had an issue with diacetyl in my lagers, I started using it as an extra precaution last year. Unfortunately it's currently sold out on More Beer, but I believe Brew Hardware in NJ and White Labs bought sell it too.

 

[hilljack13]

I did the forced diacetyl test and I am glad I did. Three one gal batches. First two were in an oxbar. The third, while unconventional, in a Mott's apple juice container. The two in the oxbar had slight notes of diacetyl. Better than before, but I went ahead and poured them out. On to the third...I poured about a cup in a glass just to taste. Well hell...it was pretty dang good with no off flavor! And it had started to naturally carb, just barely. I proceeded to spray sanitizer on the oxbar and parts and transfer the third batch, purge the headspace and set it to 20psi. Hoping to get a quick carb and drink tomorrow. I only have a bout 80% of the gallon left. Fingers crossed.

No clue why one "unconventional" way was clean. I did make sure when I filled up the container to push the beer to the top before locking it down. I did notice that the CO2 was building up over the weeks. I wasn't sure if it was temperature flux or O2 leaking in at the time, but now I know. BTW I had these batches in my kitchen at room temp for a few weeks. Based off Brewfather, tomorrow they turn 90 days old.
This one was:
90% Vienna, 10%Munich II.
6%ABV
24IBU
5.6 SRM

 

[Bobby_M]

52 is a little cold for 34/70 so it can benefit from more yeast or go more like 56F and only wait about 6-7 days before ramping it up.

 

[MaxStout]

A pediococcus infection can produce diacetyl. If other methods don't eliminate it, you could bleach bomb your fv, replace plastic tubing and parts, etc.

 

[Duck&BarrelBrewing]

Another thing to try is the DKO yeasts from omega. They have already the things in them to help with diacetyl as well as the yeast is cultured to not produce as much .

I have not used it yet so just letting you know it is there.

Also I use 34/70 but I ferment under pressure so it helps stop diacetyl from forming.