Well it looks like you need to do all your shopping with outfits that don't bake-in shipping then. That's the only way you can "stick it to the big guys" as I see it.
Cheers,
Joel B.
Price gouging ailse 5, Price gouging ailse 5
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Cheers,
Joel B.
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
Well it looks like you need to do all your shopping with outfits that don't bake-in shipping then. That's the only way you can "stick it to the big guys" as I see it.
Cheers,
Joel B.
I already do as previously mentioned.
The sacrifice is apparently selection and variety. Though I'm not sure of the correlation (i.e. why?).
FWIW, there was a thread about bargain DME prices at Amazon about nine months ago. RiteBrew's price for 3 lb bags is actually $1.30 less today than it was then. It's only $2 a bag more than what Bobby told us is the best wholesale unit price he can get, and possibly actually less than his true total unit cost to carry the item. It seems obvious to me that RiteBrew is uniquiely positioned to undercut everyone else's price on Briess DME. That means they have an advantage in the market and they have chosen to pass (some of? most of?) the savings on to their customers. It doesn't mean that everyone else is ripping people off.
^^^THIS ^^^
The term "loss leader" comes to mind. (or at less less mark-up leader)
Cheers,
Joel B.
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
They've also chosen not to impose a "free shipping" markup model on their customers for most of their products.
They could do so tommorrow.
Of course they also don't have the marketing machine that nb, mb, etc do and offer limited varieties, less employees, etc...
I have a hard time feeling too much sympathy for poor choices in such a simple matter as looking at the bottom line.
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
What do you mean?
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
Free Shipping:
Northern Brewer: > $99
More Beer: > $59
Brew Hardware: > $299
Williams Brewing: > $99.99
Rite Brew: none, discounted at certain cost points
Which is the best deal?
Which is the worst?
The free shipping markups and shipping provider discounts have to at least make up for shipping costs of any combo of items > the free shipping mark.
How would that free shipping mark be determined? An exercise in statistics most likely.
Northern Brewer: > $99
More Beer: > $59
Brew Hardware: > $299
Williams Brewing: > $99.99
Rite Brew: none, discounted at certain cost points
Which is the best deal?
Which is the worst?
The free shipping markups and shipping provider discounts have to at least make up for shipping costs of any combo of items > the free shipping mark.
How would that free shipping mark be determined? An exercise in statistics most likely.
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
There's often a joke at certain companies that the largest profit center is shipping.
beren
Well-Known Member
this seems apropos to this thread.
He talks about free returns and free shipping pretty much sums up all Bobby has said.
He talks about free returns and free shipping pretty much sums up all Bobby has said.
My free shipping is at a gross value high enough that the shipping cost is a small enough chip out of the profit margin that I can afford to cover it. It's more items being picked by the same employee going into the same box so the cost is slightly lower for that amount of profit. It also doesn't cover most glass or any grain.
Depends on what you're buying. You have to figure it out for yourself each time. But it's not hard and you don't even have to do the arithmetic yourself.
I had an interesting experience this week. I needed to deal with CO2 tanks that I acquired from some guys getting out of brewing. One was a 5#, the other a 10#. When I pointed out that the 10# was expired, they essentially gave it to me considering the bulk of other gear I took off their hands.
I exchanged the 5# at the LHBS store 50 miles away, but they didn’t deal with the 10# tanks. The 5# exchange was $19.99; $22 with tax.
I took the expired 10# tank to a gas supplier 30 miles away. I told the guy upfront that I just got it and it was expired. He wasn’t concerned; said we’ll test it ourselves before refilling. As chance would have it, he was fresh out of 10# tanks; he could get them, but it would involve another round trip on another day. He remarked that he had plenty of 5’s and 20’s. I asked what can we do? I was expecting him to offer me two 5’s. Instead, he offered to upgrade to a 20#. I saw $’s spinning in my head, but agreed before overthinking it.
I also exchanged a 5# nitrogen tank. The nitrogen was $15; the CO2 $30. I was stunned. With tax, I paid $32.10 for 20#. Getting 20# in 5# exchanges as I have been doing, would cost me $87.96; not counting the additional 140 miles of driving!
Am I upset at the LHBS? No. He is not a gas vendor, he’s a gas customer like me. There’s a markup to be paid. He’s a great guy. I want him to stay in business. I don’t want to pay shipping on the 150# of grain I just bought from him; the drive was cheaper.
It’s just business. I’ve got choices, so I make them. I have a friend that I see weekly that lives 10 minutes from the LHBS, so I might even have him exchange a tank there for me when I don’t want to drive to either place.
I exchanged the 5# at the LHBS store 50 miles away, but they didn’t deal with the 10# tanks. The 5# exchange was $19.99; $22 with tax.
I took the expired 10# tank to a gas supplier 30 miles away. I told the guy upfront that I just got it and it was expired. He wasn’t concerned; said we’ll test it ourselves before refilling. As chance would have it, he was fresh out of 10# tanks; he could get them, but it would involve another round trip on another day. He remarked that he had plenty of 5’s and 20’s. I asked what can we do? I was expecting him to offer me two 5’s. Instead, he offered to upgrade to a 20#. I saw $’s spinning in my head, but agreed before overthinking it.
I also exchanged a 5# nitrogen tank. The nitrogen was $15; the CO2 $30. I was stunned. With tax, I paid $32.10 for 20#. Getting 20# in 5# exchanges as I have been doing, would cost me $87.96; not counting the additional 140 miles of driving!
Am I upset at the LHBS? No. He is not a gas vendor, he’s a gas customer like me. There’s a markup to be paid. He’s a great guy. I want him to stay in business. I don’t want to pay shipping on the 150# of grain I just bought from him; the drive was cheaper.
It’s just business. I’ve got choices, so I make them. I have a friend that I see weekly that lives 10 minutes from the LHBS, so I might even have him exchange a tank there for me when I don’t want to drive to either place.
1) Bobby, thanks for being a great vendor & forum member. I wish you were my LHBS. We appreciate you 'pulling back the curtain' so to speak!
2) We as consumers have free will to shop wherever we want. Vendors have free will to charge whatever they want. If they end up charging too much, they lose customers. If they want to stay in business they adjust or they go out of business. It is the free market at work. No need to set anything.
3) Huck, it's the law of the wild. You gotta watch out for wolves when you are on the prairie. The world has a lot of sharp edges but this is not one of them! Vote with your feet/mouse/dollars and move on
I was on Morebeer yesterday ordering a couple of $15 Kegland valves. I thought, I might build a few gain bills to get to the $59 minimum. I started to look at their grain prices and decided against it. Some of the malt was over $3 per pound. They lost my business. Not a national legislative crisis. I will drive to my kind of close LHBS.
4) Are the products from Ritebrew grade A and fresh? When a retailer has consistently lower prices than everybody else, it makes me wonder if they are getting what falls off the truck at a lower price. I have not ordered from them but nothing surprises me in the online retailer space.
2) We as consumers have free will to shop wherever we want. Vendors have free will to charge whatever they want. If they end up charging too much, they lose customers. If they want to stay in business they adjust or they go out of business. It is the free market at work. No need to set anything.
3) Huck, it's the law of the wild. You gotta watch out for wolves when you are on the prairie. The world has a lot of sharp edges but this is not one of them! Vote with your feet/mouse/dollars and move on
I was on Morebeer yesterday ordering a couple of $15 Kegland valves. I thought, I might build a few gain bills to get to the $59 minimum. I started to look at their grain prices and decided against it. Some of the malt was over $3 per pound. They lost my business. Not a national legislative crisis. I will drive to my kind of close LHBS.
4) Are the products from Ritebrew grade A and fresh? When a retailer has consistently lower prices than everybody else, it makes me wonder if they are getting what falls off the truck at a lower price. I have not ordered from them but nothing surprises me in the online retailer space.
BrewnWKopperKat
ʘ‿ʘ
In my experience, the ingredients are fresh. Occasionally, I see offers for dry yeast that is passed it's "use by" date. Those offers are clearly marked as such and often contain the "best by" date in the product description.
Forgot to mention that yesterday - hate to admit it, but that has been in my mind as well.
Just had to add that I am one of Bobby’s “locals”. He’s a 45 min drive each way, on a nostrilous traffic route, but well worth it.
I just pick up 3-4 recipes at a time to ease the pain of $2.80 cents of kwh’s burnt roundtrip driving there.
But seriously, a few weeks ago when I was setting up my kegerator on the Friday before Christmas, I was VERY happy to have Brew Hardware so close when I made my second trip, 1:30 minutes each way in traffic, to pick up a $3.00 fitting that I didn’t realize I needed when I made the first trip earlier in the day.
As I told my wife, I’m lucky as hell as bad as the traffic was because others would wait a week and pay shipping for a stupid kegerator-specific part like that. Home Depot and Lowe’s don’t carry everything. When you need them, these guys are GOLD!
I just pick up 3-4 recipes at a time to ease the pain of $2.80 cents of kwh’s burnt roundtrip driving there.
But seriously, a few weeks ago when I was setting up my kegerator on the Friday before Christmas, I was VERY happy to have Brew Hardware so close when I made my second trip, 1:30 minutes each way in traffic, to pick up a $3.00 fitting that I didn’t realize I needed when I made the first trip earlier in the day.
As I told my wife, I’m lucky as hell as bad as the traffic was because others would wait a week and pay shipping for a stupid kegerator-specific part like that. Home Depot and Lowe’s don’t carry everything. When you need them, these guys are GOLD!
Crossed in the mail. This will be the second order I've gotten from them, so good to know.
BrewnWKopperKat
ʘ‿ʘ
... and what if these companies are charging different prices because they have varying cost structures based on warehouse location, local / regional labor rates, ...? Are the higher cost providers listed above located in more expensive regions of the USA?
Perhaps a quantum of curiosity and some 1970s grade school geography might find a pattern (hint: a couple of the lower priced providers mentioned here are in what is occasionally referred to as "fly over" country).
... and what if these companies are also working on the development of new products (e.g. OxBlox, style specific LME packaged and shipped fresh, ..., ..., ...,, ...) to make the hobby better?
Perhaps a quantum of curiosity and some 1970s grade school geography might find a pattern (hint: a couple of the lower priced providers mentioned here are in what is occasionally referred to as "fly over" country).
... and what if these companies are also working on the development of new products (e.g. OxBlox, style specific LME packaged and shipped fresh, ..., ..., ...,, ...) to make the hobby better?
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
3) Huck, it's the law of the wild. You gotta watch out for wolves when you are on the prairie. The world has a lot of sharp edges but this is not one of them! Vote with your feet/mouse/dollars and move on
I was on Morebeer yesterday ordering a couple of $15 Kegland valves. I thought, I might build a few gain bills to get to the $59 minimum. I started to look at their grain prices and decided against it. Some of the malt was over $3 per pound. They lost my business. Not a national legislative crisis. I will drive to my kind of close LHBS.
Yup we're all forced to "shop somewhere else", which myself and others have already stated many times in this thread.
The whole "shop somewhere else" mantra no longer works to drive change because of the impersonal nature of the online environments upon which these businesses are based. The whole thing can be driven by some AI (not a real AI just some algorithm in the shopping cart and inventory management software).
Enactment and enforcement of such a simple regulation would put an end to such nonsense and level the playing field giving the consumer more options and putting the power and control back in the consumers hands.
You'll probably have to take down Amazon. The consensus seems to be that they drive up prices across the board with policies that require merchants to sell on their own sites at a price no lower than what Amazon sells their products at (where Amazon bakes in their own fees).
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/new...s-amazon-illegally-maintaining-monopoly-power
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/new...s-amazon-illegally-maintaining-monopoly-power
Sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense. The example you started this rant thread with conclusively demonstrates that "shop somewhere else" works just fine in terms of allowing consumers to get a better price which is all that really matters. If your agenda is changing predatory corporate behavior then it seems there are much bigger fish to fry than the price of DME online.
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
Definetely a good start.
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
DME is just one example.
It makes perfect sense as in the age of "social media" it would seem only large scale social media based shaming and boycotting works toward change without the enactment of laws.
1) Why does the consumer need "power and control"? I don't want my customers controlling MY business. Why should I control Morebeer's business?
2) Free shipping is not a bad thing. You learn to adjust. Creating a law to stop everything under free shipping from costing too much just seems like an unenforceable and unrealistic expectation. How many online merchants are there in the U.S.? How to police etc...
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
The consumer should have control of the shipping costs for any order amount. The products being sold should not contain markups associated with the false advertising mantra - "free shipping".
I don't think it's necessary to use cost of doing business as the justification for higher or lower prices but for discussion's sake only;
There are a bunch of reasons why their prices might be on the lower end.
1. We already speculated that their proximity to Briess makes shipping cheaper on the supply side and the possible handshake deal to bypass 3rd party distributor markup. On Briess products, this is a no brainer and I'm further convinced of this possibility due to the relative markup between Briess grains and European (imported) grains.
2. They are also pretty close to Rahr/BSG
3. Low overhead. Industrial area/warehouse leases in that area cost about half what I'm paying in rent. I chose a mixed shipping/walk in retail environment so it had to be somewhat accessible to major roads.
4. Labor costs and cost of living (e.g. how much the business owner needs to pay themselves in order to live in that location).
This one is kind of interesting because one might argue that no one is forced to operate in an expensive geographical area. On the other hand, I'm a person that lives in the state where I was born and I'm not that motivated to find the absolute cheapest place to live so I can out compete other shipping based vendors. I know that option is available to me but you can't make me do that.
The labor cost side of it may also be controversial. NJ also attracts a lot of high value jobs in Pharma and tech so it may skewed, but even wages on the lower end are vastly different. NJ minimum wage is over $13 while WI is $7.
Excellent, thanks Bobby. And no, I agree, it's not necessary to raise Cost of Sales here.
The first sentence is not the reality as Morebeer has flat rate $8.99 shipping for everything under $59 orders. That is your control - either $8.99 or free.
The second sentence should be the distilled version of this thread. No new laws, shipping police etc... Just call Morebeer and tell them you think. They are nice folks and they might look at some things.
But, do not think that just because it can be done technically that small business can afford or even knows how to accomplish this on their website.
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
That's what they're offering you but that doesn't mean it's the best deal. The consumer should be able to see and control the shipping service no matter the cost of the order.
Given the Amazon lawsuits, etc... I would think regulation is coming sooner rather than later.
Not sure what you're referring to but most shopping cart systems, "Shopify", "WooCommerce" etc... already build this logic into their products.
I'm sorry, I'm starting to lose just what this thread is about. I guess I still feel I can spend my dollar where I want. If that price is higher, for what ever reason, so be it. Price is not the only reason I shop where I do. Processioning time, shipping (cost and again timeliness) and customer service play in to my decisions.
It's called "shopping" for a reason, other wise it's just "buying".
Maybe I missing something here,,,,
Cheers,
Joel B.
It's called "shopping" for a reason, other wise it's just "buying".
Maybe I missing something here,,,,
Cheers,
Joel B.
The term "price gouging" is a rhetorical device used by many to complain of a perceived high cost of something. Most of us have used it in that context. "The car dealer gouged me today." I've used the term sometimes. Same for the term "ripoff."
Price-gouging, as a legal term of art is a completely different animal, and it is defined by statute. Proving it involves a very high standard of evidence and a number of elements set out in the statute must be met. It is an anti-competitive behavior, and it gets the attention of authorities like attorneys general or the FTC. Very few cases rise to that level.
Gas stations around here raise their prices before a weekend or holiday and drop it down afterwards. Price gouging? Not in the legal sense. Is it a shiatty thing to do? Maybe. Eye of the beholder. Supply and demand.
Nothing that I've seen in the brew supply system--or this thread--appears to rise to the legal standard of "gouging." If somebody has evidence that one is engaging in genuine price-gouging behavior, I'm all ears.
That said, the best course of action if one is dissatisfied is to vote with their dollars. Go to a different vendor whom you feel better respects your business. Spend your hard-earned money elsewhere. Sounds like a cop-out, but going elsewhere is really the only choice.
Be thankful that we have choices. There are many brewing supply vendors to choose from. It's not a monopoly.
Expecting a business to bend to the whims of a few dissatisfied customers who feel they should have more control over that business is the tail trying to wag the dog. Unhappy? Send them an email, write a review. State your case. Maybe they'll respond in kind, maybe not. Maybe they'll say, "sorry to see you go."
Then move on.
Price-gouging, as a legal term of art is a completely different animal, and it is defined by statute. Proving it involves a very high standard of evidence and a number of elements set out in the statute must be met. It is an anti-competitive behavior, and it gets the attention of authorities like attorneys general or the FTC. Very few cases rise to that level.
Gas stations around here raise their prices before a weekend or holiday and drop it down afterwards. Price gouging? Not in the legal sense. Is it a shiatty thing to do? Maybe. Eye of the beholder. Supply and demand.
Nothing that I've seen in the brew supply system--or this thread--appears to rise to the legal standard of "gouging." If somebody has evidence that one is engaging in genuine price-gouging behavior, I'm all ears.
That said, the best course of action if one is dissatisfied is to vote with their dollars. Go to a different vendor whom you feel better respects your business. Spend your hard-earned money elsewhere. Sounds like a cop-out, but going elsewhere is really the only choice.
Be thankful that we have choices. There are many brewing supply vendors to choose from. It's not a monopoly.
Expecting a business to bend to the whims of a few dissatisfied customers who feel they should have more control over that business is the tail trying to wag the dog. Unhappy? Send them an email, write a review. State your case. Maybe they'll respond in kind, maybe not. Maybe they'll say, "sorry to see you go."
Then move on.
To be fair, the "gouging" angle was your original point.
But yes, this thread, tedious as it may be, has morphed.
Why should a consumer be guaranteed "the best deal"? Your arguments are out of touch with reality.
The challenges of quoting exact shipping cost is probably 1000x more complicated than you can imagine. I've been trying to improve it for 10 years and it's still obnoxiously inaccurate.
There are items that are tiny and if someone buys only tiny items, they can fit into a small flat rate box and that cost is fixed.
IF that same customer buys mostly tiny items and adds one 24" long autosiphon, flat rate is out the window and the length of the item drives the cost. 24" is significantly more expensive than a 22" long item.
If a customer buys a 6 gallon P.E.T fermenter and a 24" autosiphon, the volume of the box gets very large, especially if you want both items to survive the trip. Most shipping cost calculations between ecommerce and the carrier APIs use weight.
That is precisely why the shipping a customer pays and what the merchant pays are always going to be mismatched plus or minus. Some days end up on the plus but my internal policy is that we do not profit on shipping. If it starts to happen over a long time period, I make adjustments.
huckdavidson
Well-Known Member
Oh believe me when I say, I know all about dim weights and shipping box sizes, merchant costs, FedEx and UPS software etc...
You pack your items the best you can then give the system the dimensions and weight. Get quotes from all available vendors USPS, UPS, FedEx, DHL, etc.. and then display them.
Let the consume decide what they want to pay.
BTW, good for you on your shipping policy, you most likely qualify for a significant discount from your shipper of choice.
Then comes the issue of shipper competition and how that can be leverage to your advantage.
That's to be done for each potential order before the customer hits "buy"?!
I run a small art & collectibles business out of my office at home (P/T); but I have run small businesses of varying types (both P/T & F/T) for the last 40 years or so. Everything @Bobby_M is stating has been my reality as a retail vendor and a manufacturer and wholesale distributor. I price my items where I think it's fair for both the customer and myself. I charge an appropriate amount for shipping because it has to cover costs related to shipping materials. I spend time on customer service/answering questions, even when I don't get the sale. I try to know the lowest I can charge for something and still make something off the exchange, which means I sometimes don't get the sale. I'm transparent and honest, and I still sometimes don't get the sale. I get complaints, returns, and broken items (nothing like UPS putting a forklift through a $100k painting to ruin your day), and I eat some of those costs, but sometimes those customers come back after the issue is resolved.
It's business. At the end of the day, bills have to be paid, employees have to be paid, and I have to be paid. If I'm not doing those things, I'm not in business, it's a hobby.
It's business. At the end of the day, bills have to be paid, employees have to be paid, and I have to be paid. If I'm not doing those things, I'm not in business, it's a hobby.
Yeah... that's totally unrealistic. I can say that simply based on my own purchases, and I'm not as much of a window shopper as some.
Wait, you're expecting a vendor to pack your order, shop for shipping rates and THEN communicate with the customer on which choice they would like? You think DME is expensive now, wait until I tell you what that level of service will cost you.
This was a fun discussion, good thought experiment, and a chance to give people an insight into what it's like to run a business but the frustration of pure disconnect in understanding is wearing my soul thin. Good day.
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