Preventing Diacetyl -or- "Hold The Butter Please"

[Stevorino]

Pretty good definition...but like Palmer says.

Yeah, Jamil's advice is always to pitch a healthy batch of yeast at the right amount, 3-4 degrees below the ferment temp, ramp up from there to your actual ferment temp and let it sit. With healthy yeast at the proper fermentation temperature, autolysis and diacyetal should be cleaned up by the yeast if given enough time.

From the sounds of it, if everything is done right, Autolysis would be hard to get unless it sat around for a few months.

Does anyone know the impact of hot break on Diacyetal/Autolysis?

 

[squeekysheep]

guess it's a good thing i use the numbers on my hydrometer.

tho i always wanted to make a butter beer from harry potter

 

[jrhammonds]

Okay--another quick question: What if you were to transfer your beer from the primary to the secondary "too early" (e.g., after 6 days). This way, you get the beer off the old yeast, but will the yeast present in the suspension eat up the diacetyl?

 

[TheFlatline]

Okay--another quick question: What if you were to transfer your beer from the primary to the secondary "too early" (e.g., after 6 days). This way, you get the beer off the old yeast, but will the yeast present in the suspension eat up the diacetyl?

I imagine so, it'll just take a lot longer.

 

[jrhammonds]

Slightly off topic: I know people who primary ferment lager stains at ale temps, then cold-condition for a few weeks to promote clarity, etc... I did notice a touch of diacetyl. So, my question is: Can I diacetyl rest be done to remove the buttery flavor, or is that just what you get for fermenting lager strains too high?

 

[Pete08]

this is probably a response to the fact the the HDPE plastic buckets are gas permeable. this means that once active fermentation is complete the lack of apressure inside the bucket can allow oxygen to migrate through the walls of your bucket and oxidize your beer. this is accelerated by poorly sealing lids and wild tempurature swings.

that being said with most beers 10-14 days in primary with stable temps is not a problem. i've only had problems at 2 wks with small beers or wheats

I have some buckets that contained long term food storage type foods. They were packed with nitrogen-designed to keep food for looong periods of time. I'm guessing that it would be okay to leave my ales in these primaries for a couple of weeks or so?

 

[Tonedef131]

I am brewing my first lager and the diacetyl doesn't want to go away. I think I underpitched with one packet of Saflager because it took a week before the lager really took off. When it was a little over half done fermenting I pulled it out for a diacetyl rest and let it finish fermenting. It has been done for well over a week but the diacetyl is still strong. I started swirling the ferementer to resuspend the yeast and it seems to have lowered it a bit, but is there just too much diacetyl for the yeast to eat up since I underpitched and created extra diacetyl? Should I just leave it for another week or more to see if it will continue to slowly clear up or am I beyond hope?

 

[Saccharomyces]

Give it time.

I too had a diacetyl lager. It's cleaning up in the bottle (months) but it would have been a lot better if I had caught it when there was more yeast to clean it up.

 

[Tonedef131]

Give it time.

I too had a diacetyl lager. It's cleaning up in the bottle (months) but it would have been a lot better if I had caught it when there was more yeast to clean it up.

How long is too long? I have never been worried about autolysis but this has been in the primary for well over a month and it sure is taking its time cleaning up this mess.

 

[Chriso]

too long? between 6-18 months... somewhere in there... ish.

 

[Saccharomyces]

I read a post about a guy who found a missing carboy after 8 months and the beer was fine.

I would worry more about the immediate problem of the diacetyl.

- Eric

 

[Doog_Si_Reeb]

I believe it's less common, but you can also get diacetyl in ales. My first partial mash was a low gravity English Bitter. After it had finished bottle-conditioning, I noticed a strong butterscotch smell and flavor. It really pissed me off to say the least. One of my buddies, who drinks mostly BMC, told me "wow, this is like a butterscotch beer. It's really good." I wasn't impressed, however...

Oddly enough, over time in the bottle, the diacetyl has mostly disappeared. I even took some to a homebrew club meeting and it got good feedback, no one mentioned diacetyl.

Along these lines, I was talking to a professional brewer recently. He said he does a diacetyl rest on his ales too. He raises the temperature a few degrees and let's them sit slightly warmer for 2-3 days. I hadn't heard of that before, but his beers definitely don't have noticeable diacetyl.

 

[Revvy]

I just dug up some more info on diacetyl that backs this thread up, along with the benefits of letting a beer sit on the yeast cake a bit longer.

I found this article;

"THE ROLE OF DIACETYL IN BEER
By Moritz Kallmeyer"

The Abstract begins...

Diacetyl as a product of fermentation is more characteristic of ales than lagers. Diacetyl is produced early in the fermentation, and then most of it is reabsorbed by the yeast and reduced to flavourless compounds later on. Yeast strains differ markedly in their diacetyl reduction ability. Some ales and a few lagers (such as the famous Pilsner Urquell) contain perceptible amounts of diacetyl, but as a rule modern brewers consider it as a fault. This is because certain bacterial infections and other errors in brewing technique will increase diacetyl levels resulting in unacceptable beer aroma and flavour profile. This parameter thus serves as a quality check. However, it is important to remember that diacetyl flavour is a natural by-product of yeast fermentation, and in some beer styles it is an optional or even required flavour component in low amounts.

From here....


Drayman's Brewery and Distillery

There's two methods of rests listed in the Kallmeyer article...one for ales and warmer beers....interesting.

Maturation of beer flavour requires the presence of yeast as a catalyst. There are many methods of finishing that have the sole objective of prolonging the contact of beer with yeast after primary fermentation is completed. I want to emphasize that a diacetyl rest with most of the yeast lying at the bottom of the tank and not enough in suspension is of no use. Most lager breweries, especially those that use Weinhenstephan 308 or similar “diacetyl producing yeast’s” employ a long diacetyl rest, in order to minimize diacetyl in the finished beer.

Method 1
If a very cold primary fermentation was used it involves allowing the beer temperature to rise from the controlled primary fermentation temperature of about 10°C to 15-18°C when the primary fermentation is coming to an end. Normally, the time is determined by the attenuation of the beer. If, for example the wort starting gravity was 1050 and the expected terminal gravity is 1010, then the diacetyl rest would be commenced when the beer has attenuated to about SG 1023 when two-thirds of the total fermentable material in the wort has been consumed. The diacetyl rest normally lasts for 48-72 hours, until primary fermentation is over and secondary fermentation is under way. At this time the temperature is lowered when the more traditional method is followed, probably 1°C per day until the lagering temperature of 0-1°C is reached.

Method 2
If a warmer primary fermentation temperature was used for ale or lager the diacetyl rest involves either lowering the beer temperature 2 or 3°C at the end of primary fermentation or keeping it constant for up to 6 days. In lager yeast strains with low diacetyl production it is common practise nowadays to employ a short diacetyl rest followed by centrifuging to remove excess yeast and then crash cooling to 0°C. When brewing ales, that should have very low diacetyl levels especially German Ales like Alt and Kölsch, the implications are to not use highly flocculent yeast and to allow an extended primary fermentation, albeit at cooler temperatures until sufficiently low diacetyl levels are reached. Yeast that settles in the cone is still removed on a daily basis.

Interesting for ALES one of the recomendations is to LOWER the temps a bit...or leave them at the same temp for 6 days...learns something new everyday...I'm going to have to try the cool rest.

It also backs up the idea of leaving beers on the yeastcake for awhile longer to allow the yeasts to clean up after themselves.

 

[ShortSnoutBrewing]

Bringing this one back to life for a minute. I've changed my process over the last year and a half to include a longer primary. Typically 3 - 4 weeks. Somehow I am still getting dinged in comps for Diacetyl. Should I leave the beers sit longer? Maybe it's a temp thing? What are the other options?

 

[BierMuncher]

Bringing this one back to life for a minute. I've changed my process over the last year and a half to include a longer primary. Typically 3 - 4 weeks. Somehow I am still getting dinged in comps for Diacetyl. Should I leave the beers sit longer? Maybe it's a temp thing? What are the other options?

I honestly think that "hints of slight diacetyl" is the go to flaw that wanna be judges lean on to show they know something.

Bullsh!t.

I had two competitions 4 weeks apart...submitted the same beer...three judges in one and two in the other...one judge out of the five used the "slight diacetyl" argument to ding me. The beer went on to win 2nd in APA's in the one comp.

Ain't no way this beer had diacetyl. It was an ALE. Pitched on a huge cake. Fermented like crazy...sat at 68 degrees for four weeks...oh...and did I mention it took a silver amongst 24 other APA's?

I'm coming to the realization that a church basement full of slightly intoxicated EAC wanna-be's will always result in someone trying to show their stuff and make some comment just to hear themselves talk.

In other words...if you don't detect diacetyl and you're doing everything right...I say ferk em.

 

[G-E-R-M-A-N]

I honestly think that "hints of slight diacetyl" is the go to flaw that wanna be judges lean on to show they know something.

Bullsh!t.

I had two competitions 4 weeks apart...submitted the same beer...three judges in one and two in the other...one judge out of the five used the "slight diacetyl" argument to ding me. The beer went on to win 2nd in APA's in the one comp.

Ain't no way this beer had diacetyl. It was an ALE. Pitched on a huge cake. Fermented like crazy...sat at 68 degrees for four weeks...oh...and did I mention it took a silver amongst 24 other APA's?

I'm coming to the realization that a church basement full of slightly intoxicated EAC wanna-be's will always result in someone trying to show their stuff and make some comment just to hear themselves talk.

In other words...if you don't detect diacetyl and you're doing everything right...I say ferk em.

I can understand what your saying. I am sure there are some judges, that just dont have the proper taste buds for picking up flavors to judge with.
I am sure diacetyl is a common cop out for all the judges that want to act like they have a honed and refined pallet.


All in all if you know your beer is good screw them. I think I would go by what the majority said about it vs a few snobs.

 

[Gordie]

All in all if you know your beer is good screw them.

Word.




......

 

[WortMonger]

It seems to me that having the yeast suspended just after the majority of primary fermentation is finished. Could someone leave the fermenter sealed up and stir the yeast sediment with a stir-bar for faster maturation? Is this better accomplished after transfer to the lagering vessel? Is a lagering vessel even necessary, could you just do everything in one vessel if you were going to force carbonate after say a 6 week lager schedule?

 

[DoblePartiGyle]

I recently attempted a Dreadnaught clone from "The Best of Brew Your Own" and it calls for fermentation with Wyeast 1968 English ESB yeast.

It's in bottles now, and it tastes pretty good, but there was definitely something "off" about it. I took it to my LHBS where they told me I had big diacetyl on it. I thought it might have been oxidized, but I'm sure it's diacetyl now, especially given Wyeast's admission of big diacetyl production: Wyeast Laboratories. London ESB Ale™ 1968
This problem is compounded by the yeast's high flocculation because the yeast falls out of suspension and hence isn't in contact with the beer long enough to get rid of the diacetyl present.

I brewed a second batch and transfered to secondary before I learned this stuff :cross:. Lesson learned: check out oddities of yeast strain used.

 

[Brewinator]

Raising the dead thread, I have to say, I've had diacetyl problems with ales, and every time it is with US-05. My latest DIPA has this problem, and when you can smell something other than hops in a 200 IBU beer, you know you have problems.

I use dry yeasts because they start faster and I don't want to hassle with starters for various reasons. I might switch to S-04, or use Papazian's Cry Havoc, which seems to stay active a lot longer than most yeasts.

My experience has been that diacetyl doesn't go away with bottle conditioning. I guess there just isn't enough yeast at that point to clean up the mess.

I really am done with US-05. Interesting was this tidbit from Kallmeyer:

the implications are to not use highly flocculent yeast

US-05 is highly flocculent. I always thought that a positive, clearer beer, but now I wonder.

I recently attempted a Dreadnaught clone from "The Best of Brew Your Own" and it calls for fermentation with Wyeast 1968 English ESB yeast.

It's in bottles now, and it tastes pretty good, but there was definitely something "off" about it. I took it to my LHBS where they told me I had big diacetyl on it. I thought it might have been oxidized, but I'm sure it's diacetyl now, especially given Wyeast's admission of big diacetyl production: Wyeast Laboratories. London ESB Ale™ 1968
This problem is compounded by the yeast's high flocculation because the yeast falls out of suspension and hence isn't in contact with the beer long enough to get rid of the diacetyl present.

I brewed a second batch and transfered to secondary before I learned this stuff :cross:. Lesson learned: check out oddities of yeast strain used.

 

[Bobby_M]

I agree. Any ale I've made that has shown diacytel has been US-05 fermented.

 

[DeathBrewer]

The Irish Ale yeast is a diacetyl bomb. Works great in my Irish Rye Stout, but probably not the right choice for most other beers.

 

[HenryHill]

I was drinking an IPA at the local Brewery last week, hanging out back waiting for the brewcrew to finish up so, we could pound beer in earnest, when the bottling leader called us over to inspect a couple of sankes of a light colored beer. It seems that he was concerned over the contents of the two kegs, and had set out glasses of each and a control one from the pub for us to sample.

One was completely, no question about it, like licking an ear of freshly buttered corn, the other only slighty, barely detectable, and the control, of course, was fine.

These were all the same beer, same batch. It became apparent that the affected beers were due to improper sanke cleaning as the control was of the same batch and kegged at the same time. Not sure if these were discovered by the pub and then rejected, but my point is to show that less than obvious things can affect the taste of a beer.

The one keg was dumped, the other, while not perfect, was good enough to still be served.

 

[user 22118]

I was at a beer fest and had like 20 beers that had Diacetyl. I was shocked that people had that many beers affected by it.

 

[delboy]

I honestly think that "hints of slight diacetyl" is the go to flaw that wanna be judges lean on to show they know something.

Bullsh!t.

I had two competitions 4 weeks apart...submitted the same beer...three judges in one and two in the other...one judge out of the five used the "slight diacetyl" argument to ding me. The beer went on to win 2nd in APA's in the one comp.

Ain't no way this beer had diacetyl. It was an ALE. Pitched on a huge cake. Fermented like crazy...sat at 68 degrees for four weeks...oh...and did I mention it took a silver amongst 24 other APA's?

I'm coming to the realization that a church basement full of slightly intoxicated EAC wanna-be's will always result in someone trying to show their stuff and make some comment just to hear themselves talk.

In other words...if you don't detect diacetyl and you're doing everything right...I say ferk em.

Diacetyl does seem to be the bogeyman of american homebrewing, in lots of english ales its not only present but highly desirable, at the right levels it dovetails beautifully with caramel and dark malts found in english ales.
The judges seem to be incapable of grasping this invariably labelling it as a flaw, maybe they shoud use their taste buds more and forget about what the guidelines say.

 

[Pabst Blue Robot]

Diacetyl does seem to be the bogeyman of american homebrewing, in lots of english ales its not only present but highly desirable, at the right levels it dovetails beautifully with caramel and dark malts found in english ales.
The judges seem to be incapable of grasping this invariably labelling it as a flaw, maybe they shoud use their taste buds more and forget about what the guidelines say.

Agree 100%, Old Speckled Hen is a textbook example. The interplay between the caramel sweetness and the diacetyl really makes that beer, IMHO.

 

[flyangler18]

Diacetyl does seem to be the bogeyman of american homebrewing, in lots of english ales its not only present but highly desirable, at the right levels it dovetails beautifully with caramel and dark malts found in english ales.

I'm not sure that I agree with this point. Low levels of diacetyl may indeed be present, but the toffee/butterscotch character that emerges in many English ales is more of an artifact from the malts than from the yeast character. The 'slickness' of diacetyl is most certainly distracting. It can be quite challenging to identify the source of a flavor as being yeast- or malt-derived.

As an example, the combination of Munich, the boil and aging can give darker Doppelbocks a moderately low grapey, pruney, or plummy character that may be incorrectly perceived as an ester from fermentation.

 

[Yooper]

I do agree that diacetyl is a go-to off-flavor, though, for people looking for it.

I had a steam beer a couple of years ago that a judge said had diacetyl- leave it in primary longer, or something like that. Um, it was in primary four weeks, with a huge starter pitched, and then into secondary for lagering. There was not even a HINT of diacetyl. But, it did have a toasted quality with a warm undertone that he incorrectly identified as diacetyl, and a flaw.

I

 

[flyangler18]

Another thing to consider is that diacetyl isn't just a yeast fermentation byproduct, it can also be generated by Pediococcus that might be lingering in unflushed beer lines for those bottling from the keg.

Pediococcus throws diacetyl in spades.

 

[flyangler18]

I had a steam beer a couple of years ago that a judge said had diacetyl- leave it in primary longer, or something like that. Um, it was in primary four weeks, with a huge starter pitched, and then into secondary for lagering. There was not even a HINT of diacetyl. But, it did have a toasted quality with a warm undertone that he incorrectly identified as diacetyl, and a flaw.

I brewed a Wee Heavy using the traditional kettle caramelization technique, and the resultant toffee/caramelly flavors have been misidentified as diacetyl as well. For the times that I have truthfully detected diacetyl in beers, I immediately pick up on the slickness rather than the flavor and that's my litmus test.