Pressure Canning Starter Wort Process

[theredben]

Interesting. Once the beer ferments out, ph should drop and it should die?

With botulism, it is not the bacteria that causes the problem, it is the toxin they produce. Even if the bacteria die off, the contaminated product is still poisonous. Cooking at high heat for 10+ minutes will denature (remove) the toxin, but with beer obviously that would not be a good idea.

 

[ResumeMan]

Also, I have not seen a single mention of the fact that canning times NEED to be lengthened when cooking at altitude due to decrease in atmospheric pressure.

Not to be a smartass, but:

Right, or don't can at a high enough pressure or for long enough (or, per the linked website from Colorado, fail to account for elevation changes), or don't check to make sure the seals took.

[...]

 

[Homercidal]

Homercidal - This is the kind of thing that worries me, what do you mean by "cover jar quickly"? Having the jars exposed to the air after cooking is exactly the problem with improper canning. THAT IS HOW THE SPORES GET IN! Not only that, but 15 minutes AT 15 psi is not sufficient when home canning. All sources recommend 25 minutes for liquids. While 15 minutes is sufficient in a proper autoclave (but most people use 20 minutes for 1 liter), the uncertainty of a home setting requires a few more minutes at temperature to ensure sterilization. Your comment about it not being rocket science may be true in regards to difficulty of the work, but safety with proper canning methods are just as important as rocket science.



To be clear everyone, the post I made on page 1 was a bit of hyperbole to scare off those who are not sure what they are doing. The post above shows an EXCELLENT example of what I am talking about. I knew if I waited long enough, people would prove my point. Also, I have not seen a single mention of the fact that canning times NEED to be lengthened when cooking at altitude due to decrease in atmospheric pressure.

Scoundrel - Not to be too nitpicky, but there are organisms that can survive the autoclave, especially for short periods of time

This is through Google Translate, hopefully it works.
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fde.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSterilisation&act=url

At if that is not enought, here is another one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrolobus_fumarii

Well there you go! You learn something new all the time. The canning information that I read, that came from the canner, seemed to claim that 15 minutes at 15 PSI was pretty much the maximum required for this process. Granted, they did not list bread or grain as a canned item, so I had to use vegetables as a guideline.

So I guess I should start canning at 15 PSI for 30 minutes, just to be safe. I don't want to be one of the millions of people who die from improper canning methods each year.

 

[theredben]

Homercidal - Could you explain what you meant by covering the jars quickly? You cannot have the open jars exposed to the air for even a second. Are you canning without the lids on?

 

[Homercidal]

Homercidal - Could you explain what you meant by covering the jars quickly? You cannot have the open jars exposed to the air for even a second. Are you canning without the lids on?

Well I have, but not any longer. It's only Starter wort anyway, so there is no real danger of getting sick. Unless I drink the canned wort without boiling first, as the boiling destroys the toxin.

As I said, you learn something new all the time.

 

[tknice]

Well I have, but not any longer. It's only Starter wort anyway, so there is no real danger of getting sick. Unless I drink the canned wort without boiling first, as the boiling destroys the toxin.

As I said, you learn something new all the time.

It seems learning something new is what this hobby is all about... at least for me.

That, and drinking good homebrew!

 

[ResumeMan]

It's only Starter wort anyway, so there is no real danger of getting sick. Unless I drink the canned wort without boiling first, as the boiling destroys the toxin.

Sorry for harping on this since you're changing your technique, but you do drink your starter wort without boiling it first, at least a little of it, right? We grow up the yeast in the starter, decant most of it, and then dump the yeast - with whatever remaining liquid it's mixed in - into the real wort. No boiling. If there was a culture of botulism spores in there, it's now in your beer.

The danger is still fairly low, but not nearly as low as it needs to be. Honestly, if I were you, I'd start practicing my new technique right away, and dump anything I had sitting on the shelves now.

 

[Homercidal]

Now that I think about it, there is still a danger because the boil happens before you add the yeast. The alcohol and pH probably won't affect the toxin (but it will kill the botulism).

I guess I'll have to risk it. I think I have a couple of jars of starter wort left. I wonder what the odds of some spores finding their way into the jars is...

EDIT: Posted at the same time.

 

[cosmo]

I would toss those questionable jars in the pressure canner for 20 minutes to be sure (that is if you are not willing to toss them). By the way it is fine to fully tighten the lids before pressure canning.

On another note. Not sure if this was mentioned, but I put my jar on a scale and zero it. Then measure 100g of DME and add a quarter tsp of nutrients. then I add tap water. The DME gets dissolved in the pressure canning process. No need to mix or use a bottling bucket that will need to be cleaned. Just works better for me.

I cook mine for 20 minutes, then let it cool naturally for a few hours before openning the lid on the cooker.

 

[ResumeMan]

I would toss those questionable jars in the pressure canner for 20 minutes to be sure (that is if you are not willing to toss them). By the way it is fine to fully tighten the lids before pressure canning.

Oh, right. That makes more sense than just chucking them.

On another note. Not sure if this was mentioned, but I put my jar on a scale and zero it. Then measure 100g of DME and add a quarter tsp of nutrients. then I add tap water. The DME gets dissolved in the pressure canning process. No need to mix or use a bottling bucket that will need to be cleaned. Just works better for me.

I cook mine for 20 minutes, then let it cool naturally for a few hours before openning the lid on the cooker.

That is exactly what I do (amount of DME depending on jar size; 1 gm per 10 ml).

 

[Greenbasterd]

you know. i do understand where theredben is coming from although i think reading something like that nobody would ever dare canning lol. but i think a post making it seem very dangerous would at the least stop average joe brewer from going ahead and thinking hes doing something awesome and not realizing hes screwing up. a little knowledge goes a long way in canning. i cant speak for all caners but im lucky enough to own an all american caner which is a dream of a machine for canning,, all parts are made very well.. the thing was purchased in 1983 and has metal to metal sealing. its as old as i am and still works flawless.(my parents thought they were genna can then had a kid i guess)
i said in an earlier post that caners are totally sealed, just realized the other day that i "updated" my caner with a weighted PSI system.. so it is possible to be open to the air lol.. but i have also noticed the parts are so well made that it actually holds negative pressure after cooling.
but the "pressure cookers" you buy today for cooking a roast quick are not canners. can they be used as canners? yes. does it open up a larger chance of getting infected? yes. how likely is it to get infected doing it as proper as possible? very f'in unlikely. you have a much better chance of getting hit by lightning..
none the less, it is a good idea to warn people of the possible dangers involved

 

[Homercidal]

Hmm... Not sure about the canners you buy today. I have my mom's, which I know was being used back in the 70's. I think you can cook in ANY pressure canner if you want to.

I have also just read that the GOV organization recommends pre-steaming before applying the weight. I did not know that was a preferred method. Apparently they say you should allow the visible steam to release from the vent port for like 10 minutes before applying the weight. Not sure why.

 

[scoundrel]

i said in an earlier post that caners are totally sealed, just realized the other day that i "updated" my caner with a weighted PSI system.. so it is possible to be open to the air lol.. but i have also noticed the parts are so well made that it actually holds negative pressure after cooling.
but the "pressure cookers" you buy today for cooking a roast quick are not canners. can they be used as canners? yes. does it open up a larger chance of getting infected? yes. how likely is it to get infected doing it as proper as possible? very f'in unlikely. you have a much better chance of getting hit by lightning..
none the less, it is a good idea to warn people of the possible dangers involved

Perhaps I need an education here but why would you say pressure cookers are different than canners? My pressure cooker is weighted to 15 pounds and once the internal pressure is achieved and the wort is at 240 degrees, it will kill off the spores just as much as a canner, autoclave or any other device that can reach that temperature. As long as the lids are on and you let the cooker/canner cool at room temp, a seal will be made.

The idea here is to kill the spores in the jars so they can't multiply in a sealed, oxygen free environment.

 

[ResumeMan]

I have also just read that the GOV organization recommends pre-steaming before applying the weight. I did not know that was a preferred method. Apparently they say you should allow the visible steam to release from the vent port for like 10 minutes before applying the weight. Not sure why.

Yeah that's what the instructions for my Presto - bought just last month - say. The idea is to drive out all the air so that you have only steam in there. The canner may not equilibrate at the correct temperature if there is air inside.

 

[Greenbasterd]

Perhaps I need an education here but why would you say pressure cookers are different than canners? My pressure cooker is weighted to 15 pounds and once the internal pressure is achieved and the wort is at 240 degrees, it will kill off the spores just as much as a canner, autoclave or any other device that can reach that temperature. As long as the lids are on and you let the cooker/canner cool at room temp, a seal will be made.

The idea here is to kill the spores in the jars so they can't multiply in a sealed, oxygen free environment.

ya i'm just not sure about the functioning's of these pressure cookers. i know they have auto releases and what not and they use silicone and plastic seals which can break down. i'm sure they work fine.
being that they are smaller people tend to do funny things with them to, like cold crash under a tap or with wet towel. which is a big no no.. alot of people take the weight off to rapidly release pressure which makes the liquid in the jar boil like a mad man.. cooking a roast these things are fine, but when trying to properly can, may lead to unsealed bottles.
also i think most of the pressure cookers not labeled as canners are weighted to 10 PSI still enough temp to kill, but might want to leave it 20-25 mins instead of 15.
basically i follow the canner instructions. let it cool in the canner and what not.. and i always listen for the sucking sound when i open a jar. i've never had an unsealed jar.. i've only canned about 100 jars in my life but never had one not seal

 

[Homercidal]

ya i'm just not sure about the functioning's of these pressure cookers. i know they have auto releases and what not and they use silicone and plastic seals which can break down. i'm sure they work fine.
being that they are smaller people tend to do funny things with them to, like cold crash under a tap or with wet towel. which is a big no no.. alot of people take the weight off to rapidly release pressure which makes the liquid in the jar boil like a mad man.. cooking a roast these things are fine, but when trying to properly can, may lead to unsealed bottles.
also i think most of the pressure cookers not labeled as canners are weighted to 10 PSI still enough temp to kill, but might want to leave it 20-25 mins instead of 15.
basically i follow the canner instructions. let it cool in the canner and what not.. and i always listen for the sucking sound when i open a jar. i've never had an unsealed jar.. i've only canned about 100 jars in my life but never had one not seal

I tried that quick cooling method the first time I canned wort and lost half or most of the wort in each jar. I did not realize that this method is only to be used for cooking food for dinner, not for canning. Makes sense when you think about it.

The advantage is supposedly to help keep the moisture of the food in the food, and to cook it quickly rather than cooking with the usual methods. Waste of time IMO, really.

Just remember that cooling quickly is strictly for cooking, not for canning.