Sounds very similar to the polyphenol+protein chill haze complexes, but doesn't this reaction still require some basic balance between the proteins and polyphenols? -When you do late hopping or hop bursting you can add 4x the hops than you would on a normal schedule, are we not reacting with all the available wort proteins and still leaving plenty of hop-derived polyphenols behind?
Polyphenols combine with proteins in the
un-oxidized state. These protein-tannin complexes formed with non-coagulable proteins cause chill-haze, because they are soluble in hot wort but precipitate in the cold, and since they are relatively
light-weight, they will float and will not totally form sedimentation. Wort should be boiled well before adding hops, so polyphenols are eliminated in the hot break, thus reducing the chances of chill-haze development.
The
oxidized tannin on the other hand, is called phlobaphene and they are extremely attracted to wort proteins. Phlobaphene-protein complexes are insoluble in water, therefore become solid after a good hot break. Later, these complexes are
heavy enough to drop and form part of the trub.
Also with these massive late flame out additions, we're not boiling anymore, do these reactions even have time to fully occur in this situation?
You needn't be worried about unpleasant bitter hop compounds affecting your wort/beer if you add the hops below the point of isomerization. I never do massive flameout additions... only massive 160 F hopstands.
I find high myrcene VARIETIES of hops to be harsh tasting when young, especially when dry hopped -over time the harshness fades. It's definitely a well researched and logical conclusion to come to as a result that the flavor that I don't like is myrcene.
I find this hard to believe. Can you give some examples of the hops you've noticed extreme harshness from in the dryhop? I'm pretty sure you're the only person in the world who senses "Green, metallic, green hop aroma, herbaceous, resinous, balsamic" from a Citra & Amarillo dryhop.
whole hops can have up to 70% more myrcene than pellets of the same variety.
Yes, but that difference is flipped when the wort is hopped as only 5% of myrcene is extracted from whole hops compared to 17% from pellets.
Myrcene itself is not your friend regardless of it's high levels in many beloved raw American hops.
That is your opinion. I tend to favor high myrcene and high total oil content hops. High myrcene hops always have high total oil content. But high total oil content does not always mean high levels of Myrcene.
Examples:
Low Myrcene:
Saaz, Fuggles, East Kent Goldings, Hallertauer
High Myrcene:
Amarillo, Citra, Simcoe, Centennial, Nugget
High Total Oil Content:
Galaxy, Chinook, Summit, Apollo, Columbus
American Pacific NW Hops have (on average):
High Total Oil Content
Moderate to High Alpha Acids
High Myrcene
Low to Moderate Caryophyllene
Low Humulene
Low Farnesene
European Noble Hops have (on average):
Low Total Oil Content
Low Alpha Acids
Low Myrcene
Moderate to High Caryophyllene
High Humulene
High Farnesene
There is basically an opposite relationship in every category when you compare these two types of hop families.
The flavor differences between kettle hopping and dry hopping are well known and certainly some people prefer one vs. the other, but the literature is pretty clear that one of the MAJOR differences between the two practices is myrcene levels (up to 508x less myrcene with kettle hop additions).
Yes, it is obvious that hops added to wort above 167 F will contain less myrcene, considering that is the boil off rate of myrcene.
Nevertheless, you're interpreting the information the wrong way. Most top examples prefer to focus on both late kettle and dryhop additions. In fact, the dryhop is more imporant in the large majority of cases.
To prove it, just about every top rated IPA/IIPA out there relies on both late additions and dryhop additions.
Level of importance (1-4):
Dryhop = 1
Late = 2
Early = 3
Middle = 4
90-60 min - Early
45-20 min - Middle
15-0 min - Late (includes warm hopstands beyond 0 min)
5-12 days - Dryhop (includes multi-stage dryhops)
TOTAL RECIPE HOPS BY WEIGHT
Russian River Pliny the Elder
28% early (or hop extract)
14% middle
28% late
30% dryhop
Fat Head's Head Hunter
21% early
17% middle
28% late
34% dryhop
Ninkasi Tricerahops
19% early
12% middle
27% late
42% dryhop
Stone IPA
22% early
0% middle
44% late
34% dryhop
Kern Citra IIPA
13% early
8% middle
25% late
54% dryhop
Firestone Walker Union Jack
6% early
19% middle
31% late
44% dryhop
Alchemist Heady Topper
0% early (latest info is that no actual hops are boiled – only hop extract is used at this point at 10-15 ml per 5 gallon batch)
0% middle
43% late
57% dryhop
The articles linked to below also show that some of the differences comes from yeast biotransformation; this is particularly where that delicious kettle hopped citra flavor comes from.
I am very familiar with Citra. Citra is one of the highest myrcene content hops out there. In the kettle, Citra is more catty, grapefruity, pungent, less tropical, less fruity. In the dryhop, Citra is extremely juicy, tropical, and full of mango and lychee -- Here, the aroma is almost intoxicating and the flavor is very juice like.
I'm afraid YOU'RE misinformed on this one. It IS newish science, though.
Geraniol gets transformed to Beta-Citronellol by yeast and produces that lovely "citra" flavor in late hopped citra beers that's somehow missing when you only dry hop.
These articles contain quite a bit of information that I do not have the time to read right now. In the last link, they are not even using ale yeast; they are using lager yeast for the study.
I admit that yeast has flavor effects in American IPAs (moreso if you use something like Conan vs. WLP001), but something like WLP001/Cali Ale yeasts' effects on perceived juicyness, pineyness, citrus flavors, etc. are likely inconsequential. These flavors are primarily coming from the hops when using clean ale yeasts. Conan is a bit more characterful and peachy. But to label the yeast + hop relationship and transformation of Geraniol to Beta-Citronellol as the primary reason for pleasant flavor/aroma in an IPA is a bit ill-conceived.
"Myrcene is the primary compound associated with that citrusy, piney, floral, fruity character that we love in Pacific Northwest hops. Saying that you hate myrcene is basically like saying that you hate American IPAs, since just about every good AIPA has some citrusy, piney, floral, and/or fruity traits."
The flavors of Pacific NW hops I do enjoy, but the flavors that you're describing aren't generally attributed to myrcene; you're in a huge minority calling myrcene citrusy, piney, floral and fruity.
"Green, metallic, green hop aroma, herbaceous, resinous, balsamic" -these are all common flavor descriptors of myrcene.
As I like all those same hop varieties when used as late additions when myrcene levels in my pint glass are low but most of the other hop aromatic oils are still present in late/kettle additions and that would indicate that I'm fine with those hops in general, I just don't like getting punched in the throat with myrcene.
You've setup a myrcene flavor descriptor straw man and knocked it down, for sure; I'm just not so sure that it's fair to ascribe your flavor descriptors to myrcene; no one else does.
"Green, metallic, green hop aroma, herbaceous, resinous, balsamic" ...
Perhaps when isolated and concentrated in a Lab setting, but not when you consider the hop as a whole.
I'm pretty sure if you deconstructed a watermelon a chemical level in a lab, that the L-citrulline would taste like nothing, if not unpleasant on the palate. Yet this compound is extremely desireable and beneficial to the flavor of the watermelon as a whole... outside of the Lab.
See attached chart which describes myrcene as piney, citrusy, floral. I'm pretty sure that it is widely accepted that high myrcene content is beneficial, preferred, and pleasant in most of the West Coast American IPAs. More proof of this is that the most popular American IPA hops are all very high in Myrcene and Total Oil Content. It's hard to deny the correlation.
Beer Advocate Forum Poll
AMERICAN IPA HOPS
Out of 192 votes:
1st place = Centennial (30)
2nd place = Amarillo (28)
3rd place = Simcoe (27)
4th place = Citra & Cascade (21 each)
5th place = Columbus (19)
6th place = Chinook (15)
7th place = Warrior (10)
8th place = Magnum (9)
9th place = Mosaic (7)
10th place = Ahtanum & Palisade (6 each)
11th place = Nugget & Horizon (4 each)
12th place = Summit & Glacier (2 each)
13th place = Apollo & Belma (1 each)
14th place = Millennium & Galena (no votes)
