Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?

[Kent88]

All true, plus the issue of battery depletion and replacement. Big $$$$.

I don't think I've heard of too many EV battery replacements that cost the owner big bucks that weren't from the first generation Nissan Leafs, or a small number of vehicles made around that time.

 

[doug293cz]

Yeah, that's a big issue for me on the "used EV" question too. My understanding from what Tesla is doing is that if you treat the batteries nicely, i.e. try to keep them within 20-80% charge at all times with only limited excursions charging to 100% (such as before a road trip), they don't really have significant depletion issues. Outside of some of the early Nissan Leaf models that didn't have adequate temp control on the batteries, depletion hasn't been a huge problem.

But if you have a used EV and you can't verify the charging history, it brings up some questions. Particularly something for a fleet vehicle / rental vehicle that the company only expects to keep a few years, they have no incentive to charge it nicely.

When I replace my ICEV in 5-6 years, if these questions aren't answered I might buy a brand new car for only the second time in my life.

Would be relatively easy to put a charging history logger into the system electronics, and actually I'd be surprised if they are not there already. If the logger design is secure (can't be overwritten with false data) that should solve the question of how the battery was treated.

Brew on

 

[day_trippr]

I don't think I've heard of too many EV battery replacements that cost the owner big bucks that weren't from the first generation Nissan Leafs, or a small number of vehicles made around that time.

I've come across a few horror shows on Youtube involving Teslas with module failures that repairs are quoted in the $20K-25K+ range.
Right now the biggest issue imo is only Tesla can do a legit repair and replacement modules aren't raining down from the sky...

 

[MaxStout]

Would be relatively easy to put a charging history logger into the system electronics, and actually I'd be surprised if they are not there already. If the logger design is secure (can't be overwritten with false data) that should solve the question of how the battery was treated.

Brew on

Then a prospective buyer asks the dealer to show the logged data.
"Sorry, that battery history data is proprietary."

 

[day_trippr]

Apparently (and not surprisingly) there is a crapton of battery management information contained in a module that is sourced by the pack supervisor. I assume much of it is to assure charge and drain cycles are properly distributed and to track the "health" of the cells in a module. Presuming at the least a proprietary format, there's every reason to believe it'd be difficult to mimic legally...

Cheers!

 

[Kent88]

I've come across a few horror shows on Youtube involving Teslas with module failures that repairs are quoted in the $20K-25K+ range.

I don't follow teslas all that closely. @Bilsch drives one, so he'd be good to talk about it. I know GM batteries are pretty solid when people aren't freaking out about a flaw that caused accidents with 9 hundredths of a percent of Bolts sold in the US (or all of N America, I forget) and that GM is going to fix at little or no cost to owners.

Right now the biggest issue imo is only Tesla can do a legit repair and replacement modules aren't raining down from the sky...

Right to repair movements are becoming a bigger thing. It makes sense to me in my own head that the current model isn't going to work when EVs become the dominant type, because they just don't require as much maintenance. Manufacturers are going to have to live with the idea that facilities that do warranty work can also work on other brands.

It'll be annoying, I know. Like taking your phone in to the place you buy it from and they hardly look at it before saying they can't fix it and want to sell you something new. But vehicle sales are going through some changes now anyway.

 

[doug293cz]

Then a prospective buyer asks the dealer to show the logged data.
"Sorry, that battery history data is proprietary."

Ok then, no sale.

Brew on

 

[Bilsch]

I don't follow teslas all that closely. @Bilsch drives one, so he'd be good to talk about it.

I have two now and zero issues. You can imagine the industries who are facing disruptive change don’t like this idea of EV’s at all. Therefore most of the negative stuff is oil co FUD.

 

[day_trippr]

This latest threadlette doesn't apply to those having "zero issues".

 

[passedpawn]

WSJ article says "fillups" are cheaper with gas if you're on a trip, but cheaper with EV if you charge at home. Nothing too surprising there. The full article is here.

 

[Kent88]

JD Power Study: Electric Vehicle Owners Prefer Dedicated Home Charging Stations

80% of EV charging is done at home

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Exactly. Part of my reticence to dip my toes in the EV pool at this time is that I'm currently renting. I'm not going to pay $1000 or so to install an L2 charger in my landlord's garage. That doesn't make sense. Granted with WFH I could probably charge enough off 110 (or use the 220 that's in the garage) to cover my typical commuting, but still it's a concern.

I don't think EV makes a lot of sense if you can't charge at home. Which means that it's going to be difficult for those without garages, renters, apartment- and some condo-dwellers, etc to make the switch. Homeowners with garages who can install a charger, on the other hand, it's MUCH more economical.

 

[tracer bullet]

Homeowners with garages who can install a charger, on the other hand, it's MUCH more economical.

My wife and I don't currently drive much, between living close to where I work and her WFH. But someday one or more cars will need replacing and the EV's make sense as an in-town runabout. I've been happy she's interested in the idea of one - but not for the environmental or gas saving reasons. But because if we run 240V to the garage, or higher, suddenly my brewing can get a lot more interesting! Hopefully she doesn't realize they can charge on 110 overnight...

 

[Kent88]

I'm not going to pay $1000 or so to install an L2 charger in my landlord's garage.

It's a valid criticism that lots of people live in rented apartments and don't have access to an outlet wherever they park their car.

But if someone has access to even a standard household outlet where they park their car, it can do a lot. Writing previous posts for this thread I've guesstimated that, for the worst quarter of the year for the people who live in the colder parts of the 48, they can theoretically travel 57 miles per day on just regular household current with a vehicle rated for 250 miles per full charge with little or no concern about range anxiety

Having lived in fairly rural areas, I know 57 miles per workday isn't ideal, and even if the person had no social life and only went out for groceries and other essentials, that cuts into both miles and charge time. I definitely know some people that couldn't make such a situation work. But I also know some people that could certainly make it work, as they have some combination of less of a commute, modern wiring in their garage that can safely handle 12amp charging, access to level 2 fast chargers near places they shop, warmer climate, etc.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

It's a valid criticism that lots of people live in rented apartments and don't have access to an outlet wherever they park their car.

But if someone has access to even a standard household outlet where they park their car, it can do a lot. Writing previous posts for this thread I've guesstimated that, for the worst quarter of the year for the people who live in the colder parts of the 48, they can theoretically travel 57 miles per day on just regular household current with a vehicle rated for 250 miles per full charge with little or no concern about range anxiety

Yeah, and as I said, I could probably make it work. Granted if you get 57 miles per 24 hours of charging on 110V, but you leave for work every day at 8 AM, and you return and plug your car back in at 6 PM, you almost cut that in half for what you can get on a regular work day by being gone 10 of 24 hours. But with me WFH and my wife going to the office every day, she could keep her car close enough to "full" during the week to cover all her driving, and top up back to "full" on the weekend when her car sits at home more.

As I've said before, the biggest issue for me is merely timing. My cars were purchased before EVs and commercial charging had reached a level of maturity I was comfortable with, and now I've got a good 5-6 years before we intend to replace either car.

But I think it's worth highlighting that one of the headwinds of EV adoption is that charging infrastructure, because as @passedpawn highlights, you don't save money if you're relying on commercial charging. So all the people that highlight how "cheap" EVs are to operate, it has an assumption that you're charging at home.

You point out that 80% of EVs are charged at home in your previous post. I'd argue that's because EVs are still expensive to purchase, and most of the people who are able to buy them are also homeowners who have the means and desire to install an L2 charger. If you own a home and you're buying a $40K+ EV, an extra grand for a charger is easy.

 

[Kent88]

Yeah, and as I said, I could probably make it work. Granted if you get 57 miles per 24 hours of charging on 110V,

That isn't exactly how I did the math.

But I think it's worth highlighting that one of the headwinds of EV adoption is that charging infrastructure, because as @passedpawn highlights, you don't save money if you're relying on commercial charging. So all the people that highlight how "cheap" EVs are to operate, it has an assumption that you're charging at home.

You point out that 80% of EVs are charged at home in your previous post. I'd argue that's because EVs are still expensive to purchase, and most of the people who are able to buy them are also homeowners who have the means and desire to install an L2 charger. If you own a home and you're buying a $40K+ EV, an extra grand for a charger is easy.

Charging infrastructure needs to be improved, absolutely. When cell phones were getting popular they were also plagued by poor infrastructure / bad reception, but I remember my dad getting a bag phone because even though we lived in the middle of nowhere it was still darn helpful during planting and harvest.

EVs are going to see infrastructure expand just like cell phones had their networks expand. Except I think that EVs to today's travel industry are better than what early 00s cell phones were to their days communication. It's hard to compare, though, you can easily make the apples to oranges argument.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I don't know what the EV infrastructure looks like in "Midwest USA" lol -- I moved out of the Midwest 21 years ago.

Here in CA, infrastructure isn't a problem. The issue, as @passedpawn brought up, is economic. If you are relying 100% on commercial chargers, the electricity to power an EV is more expensive than the gas to power an ICEV. If you can charge at home, you save money with an EV.

My point was that this is an impediment to the proportion of the population which has no charge-at-home capability. That is a sizable number.

I'd also argue that this is not like cell phones at all. EVs and ICEVs are essentially a substitute, with arguably EV being a major upgrade. The substitute for a cell phone was a pager and trying to find a pay phone. It's a complete difference.

 

[tracer bullet]

But I think it's worth highlighting that one of the headwinds of EV adoption is that charging infrastructure, because as @passedpawn highlights, you don't save money if you're relying on commercial charging. So all the people that highlight how "cheap" EVs are to operate, it has an assumption that you're charging at home.

My workplace has a half dozen chargers and is installing more. Tesla (and other EV) owners use it once or twice a week and never for too long, if they park there in the morning they move the car by lunch so someone else can have a go at it. Seems to be working for them. These guys are effectively paying nothing.

I guess I'm agreeing with you and adding that for some people it's even cheaper than charging at home.

 

[Kent88]

I don't know what the EV infrastructure looks like in "Midwest USA" lol -- I moved out of the Midwest 21 years ago.

It could use some improvement, but there are surprises. A "nearby" (not many places are closer, and those aren't that much closer) grocery store has free charging. I think other grocery stores in the area have free charging at other locations, and I've been meaning to craft some encouraging emails suggesting they do the same. Certain directions I could go have chargers, others don't.

I checked the 100 mile radius around my parent's house, and there are some surprisingly well placed chargers around them, but not much in their nearest "big" town.

There are some options around my in-laws, but I don't know how many of those are public chargers.

I'm about two well placed chargers away from being able to go full-BEV rather than PHEV. And once Jeep makes an affordable PHEV or BEV Cherokee, and assuming I don't have any vehicle accidents, I probably won't buy another pure ICE vehicle again. We expect to drive our current vehicles for another 6-8 years.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

My workplace has a half dozen chargers and is installing more. Tesla (and other EV) owners use it once or twice a week and never for too long, if they park there in the morning they move the car by lunch so someone else can have a go at it. Seems to be working for them. These guys are effectively paying nothing.

I guess I'm agreeing with you and adding that for some people it's even cheaper than charging at home.

Yeah, and that's a thing. I know at my office, we have a parking garage with some limited EV spaces with chargers. I don't believe that my company pays for the electricity, so they're still commercial chargers. But I've got no idea whether rates are subsidized / etc for employees. They are controlled-access garages, so it will only be employees charging. Since I don't have an EV, I don't know if the rates are lower than market for commercial charging.

IMHO that's something that I'm not sure is going to be scalable long-term. If, for example, Google wants to pay for free EV charging for employees, well they've got hundreds of billions of dollars in cash so they can afford it, regardless of how many employees buy EVs. If most normal businesses decide to offer free EV charging and suddenly find themselves in a situation where 80% of their employees own EVs, they may not be able to justify it as an employee perk.

 

[Kent88]

I could see charging stations in employee parking zones for reduced prices in the future. People are already renting out their roofs to people who install solar panels on them for a share of the energy they produce. I don't think renting out a bit of parking space would be a big deal. The problem would be how to get employees first priority, keep them from taking up the space after charging has finished, and make it so the same "early birds" don't get the good charging spot every day.

 

[Broothru]

My wife and I don't currently drive much, between living close to where I work and her WFH. But someday one or more cars will need replacing and the EV's make sense as an in-town runabout. I've been happy she's interested in the idea of one - but not for the environmental or gas saving reasons. But because if we run 240V to the garage, or higher, suddenly my brewing can get a lot more interesting! Hopefully she doesn't realize they can charge on 110 overnight...

"But Honey, if we only run some 240V out to the garage we can charge an EV, and it'll be TOTALLY worth it....."

No need to add superfluous information to the discussion.

 

[Kent88]

Getting by with 110/120 as your main method of charge for a BEV wouldn't be ideal. I bet a lot more people can get by with it than we think, but I'd recommend anyone looking to buy a BEV also plan to put a level 2 charger in their garage, if they can.

 

[Bilsch]

WSJ article says "fillups" are cheaper with gas if you're on a trip, but cheaper with EV if you charge at home. Nothing too surprising there. The full article is here.

It's interesting that for their comparison they chose the EV (MachE) with the lowest MPGe (84 MPGe) of any you could buy at the time and the charging stations (Electrify America) with the highest cost of electricity. I wonder why?

If you plug Tesla's numbers (142 MPGe) (supercharger $0.28/kwh) into that same equation the outcomes are quite different. Then factor in today's gas prices as well as the reduction in maintenance costs and it's not even close.

Edit: MachE is the 24th least efficient EV out of the 26 available for purchase in the US.

 

[Kent88]

It's interesting that for their comparison they chose [an] EV ... with [among] the lowest MPGe (84 MPGe) of any you could buy at the time and the charging stations ... with the highest cost of electricity. I wonder why?

I have a theory, but I'm going to keep it to myself because I want to keep the thread out of Debate.

They could have also looked at the Aptera, which has less air resistance than the side mirror of an F150 and is covered in solar panels.

 

[RePete]

Just a few disparate thoughts. One, I charge my Volt in the garage on 110 every night. Roughly 50 miles of range. It’s often enough to get through a day. I do service calls, so don’t drive to a set place every day. To go all EV I would need probably 100 miles of range to make it feasible. One place I go every week is 58 miles away. In the summer, when I get more miles to a charge, I can make it if I drive conservatively. This place has chargers. A year ago I could usually find one open, and charge while I work. No more. There are 4, and half the time time they are taken. So, I am happy for the gas backup. So, a full EV would work range wise, but I would need to get 240v service to get enough daily charge.

We a buying solar panels. So that is supposed to happen in the spring. We can’t get enough capacity installed to fully accommodate our electric needs, but it should cover most of it.

I belong to a Volt owners group on FB. People are reporting some of the prices being offered for their cars by some of the online sites. It makes it tempting to sell my Volt, drive a cheap gas powered car for a while, and hold onto the money until I find an EV I want. Really, none of the current EV’s, at least that I can afford, are appealing to me now. But, there will be one eventually.

 

[passedpawn]

Just a few disparate thoughts. One, I charge my Volt in the garage on 110 every night. Roughly 50 miles of range. It’s often enough to get through a day. I do service calls, so don’t drive to a set place every day. To go all EV I would need probably 100 miles of range to make it feasible. One place I go every week is 58 miles away. In the summer, when I get more miles to a charge, I can make it if I drive conservatively. This place has chargers. A year ago I could usually find one open, and charge while I work. No more. There are 4, and half the time time they are taken. So, I am happy for the gas backup. So, a full EV would work range wise, but I would need to get 240v service to get enough daily charge.

We a buying solar panels. So that is supposed to happen in the spring. We can’t get enough capacity installed to fully accommodate our electric needs, but it should cover most of it.

I belong to a Volt owners group on FB. People are reporting some of the prices being offered for their cars by some of the online sites. It makes it tempting to sell my Volt, drive a cheap gas powered car for a while, and hold onto the money until I find an EV I want. Really, none of the current EV’s, at least that I can afford, are appealing to me now. But, there will be one eventually.

A bill that just passed through the senate (still needs to be approved by house) offers a substantial rebate for electric cars that meet very specific criteria. At this moment, I believe the ONLY car that meets the criteria is the Chevy Bolt. If the bill was passed and begun today, you'd get a $12,500 rebate for buying that car. Other EVs would max out at a $8k rebate. Quite possible the bill will not survive congress without some changes, but keep an eye out for qualifying EVs if you're in the market for a low-cost one.

 

[RePete]

A bill that just passed through the senate (still needs to be approved by house) offers a substantial rebate for electric cars that meet very specific criteria. At this moment, I believe the ONLY car that meets the criteria is the Chevy Bolt. If the bill was passed and begun today, you'd get a $12,500 rebate for buying that car. Other EVs would max out at a $8k rebate. Quite possible the bill will not survive congress without some changes, but keep an eye out for qualifying EVs if you're in the market for a low-cost one.

My daughter, and a good friend of mine, both have Bolts. I have driven both. The deal breaker for me is the seat. I borrowed my daughter’s car one weekend, and my back was complaining for days. They just are uncomfortable, and I spend way to much time in the car. Other than that, I might think about it.

 

[Kent88]

I am thinking that when a nearby dealership gets a Bolt EUV, I'm going to go test drive just for fun.

 

[RePete]

A bill that just passed through the senate (still needs to be approved by house) offers a substantial rebate for electric cars that meet very specific criteria. At this moment, I believe the ONLY car that meets the criteria is the Chevy Bolt. If the bill was passed and begun today, you'd get a $12,500 rebate for buying that car. Other EVs would max out at a $8k rebate. Quite possible the bill will not survive congress without some changes, but keep an eye out for qualifying EVs if you're in the market for a low-cost one.

I bought both of my Volts, in large part, with the tax credit in mind. $12,500 would go a long ways towards making a decision for me. Especially once we get our solar panels up.