Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?

[mashdar]

Oh, I'm really biting my tongue here, because the things I would like to say in response belong in Debate.

I think your idea that the tailgate frunk kegerator will save the homebrew hobby is fair fodder here. We were all thinking it.

 

[Airborneguy]

I buy used

I think your idea that the tailgate frunk kegerator will save the homebrew hobby is fair fodder here. We were all thinking it.

I’ve filled my frunk with ice once or twice…

As I said, I like my car.

 

[mac_1103]

If you want a steam powered car, that should be your choice.

I'm thinking about an electric conversion for one of these:

How big an induction plate do you think I'd need to get up a good head of steam?

 

[sibelman]

"Why EVs" seems entirely consistent with the thread, no? One need not reference politics to note that air pollution is a genuine concern to all who breathe. Of course, EVs are quick and quiet too.

 

[Kent88]

But it is a political issue these days and we're walking a fine line acknowledging that some people believe that's an issue and it motivates their car purchasing decisions, and keeping this thread from becoming the renewable energy thread we have in Debate.

 

[sibelman]

walking a fine line

Okay.

 

[fatjay]

I have no political bias regarding BEV's. I have one, and 5 gas cars, and 2 diesel trucks. They each suit different purposes.

I think prices will come down with time, just like the personal computer once started at $2500. Technology advanced, things became more streamline, and prices came down over time.

What I think is a mistake in BEV's, is that everyone seems like they are trying to pack as much technology in them as possible. I think that's keeping the average price high, and I think it's a mistake.

There are BEV's without super tech, but they also seem to come with a joke of a battery which results in abysmal range. What I haven't seen yet is a basic BEV without all the options, with a chunky battery that can go the distance. And as someone else said, they're quick. But they don't need to be.

I bet you could make a honda fit with stripped down everything, with a 120hp electric motor, and a big chunky battery, and that thing will do 250+ miles on a charge easy. EV's don't have to ALL have neck breaking acceleration or top speed. You can make crappy ones, too.

BEV's are fairly new, the tech takes time to mature, and the price will come down. There will always be early adapters that will pay top dollar.

 

[fatjay]

There is an EA charger, the only fast charger in my area. It charges 20-80% in ~30 minutes. It takes me 6% of my battery to get there, around 20 miles. So after I charge my car to 80% and drive home, I'm already at 74%

I can also charge at home, with a 40a charger i'm in the process of installing. That's the key thing though. THere's a barrier to entry. I've spent $1500 to install my charger, and i'm doing it myself. I've heard quotes from $5000-10,000 to install an overnight charger. That's a big deal because it's on top of the new car price.

What happens to people who don't own their homes. People with apartments, non-dedicated parking spaces, town homes, condo's. Those people have no option for overnight charging, so that leaves them to public charging. Fast chargers, 150kw or so, are pretty rare in my area, and if I zoom out on the map, it looks like they're pretty rare most places.

Without more public charging, you'd be hard pressed to have more widespread adaptation of BEV's. And that is it's own complication, 150kw * 6 chargers is an insane power requirement, you can't just tap your local telephone pole for that. It would have to be some massive complex.

There's a lot more at play than just "hey lets buy an ev".

 

[Airborneguy]

I’ve been installing chargers as a side job. I did my first Tesla Wall Charger this past Sunday for a friend.

With no labor costs, why has it cost so much for you? Did you have to upgrade your whole panel? Super long run?

Materials have never cost me more than $300 for a job, most of that being the 6ga cable.

I’m doing another one next week. My best friend is picking up the new Volvo full-sized ev suv. XC90 I think?

I fully agree that the current state of EVs pretty much requires one to have home charging. I love my Tesla (my second), but if I lost access to home charging, both it and my wife’s Mach E would be the next things to go.

 

[Kent88]

Idk, I made it a few years with a Volt and didn't have level 2 charging at my house. I even went three-quarters of a year charging my Bolt with primarily level 1 charging. It all depends on your circumstances.

That said, it makes things a lot easier when you have level 2 charging at your own residence. If you have a BEV, I highly recommend it.

 

[Airborneguy]

Level 1 or Level 2. I meant none. If I had to move to an apartment with street parking, the Tesla would be gone. There’s no shot I’m waiting at chargers to cover my daily needs.

My wife’s Mach E primarily charges at Level 1. I didn’t see the need to install a second Level 2.

 

[Broothru]

My point was about adoption. Most people base their car purchases on the monthly payment. If a BEV is $15K more than an "equivalent" ICEV, and you assume 60-month financing, even at 0% interest that's a $250/month higher payment.

Now, that's not really fair... The issue is that not all of that $15K increase is the battery. It's also the trim level. But you can buy a "base" Hyundai Tucson for $28K but a the Ioniq 5 starts at $42K ($14K adder), and you can buy a "base" F150 SuperCrew for $43K but the Lightning starts at $62K ($19K adder). Of course, the Ioniq 5 or the F150 Lightning will be at a much higher trim level than the base models of the other two... But if you're absolutely forced into certain trim levels to buy the BEV and lower-trim packages aren't even available, that still means the minimum cost of entry is a HUGE difference.

Don't take this as me being anti-EV, mind you. When the time comes for me to replace my wonderful Ford Flex, I will certainly be considering an EV. Because I tend to keep cars for 10+ years, and because I'm less price-sensitive than many car buyers, ultimately I'm simply going to buy whatever I want. And that might well be a BEV. I absolutely see some of the advantages of BEV, especially as someone with a heavy right foot who really likes torque

But the cost of batteries means that a BEV isn't going to be close to equivalent yet for someone who just needs a basic reliable "go from point A to B" car. And because of that, the automakers target buyers who are going to be wanting more than just a basic reliable car--like all the fancy stuff that comes with higher level trim--which increases that cost gap further.

If the cost of entry forces me to buy extra things in a trim package that I don't want/need, then I have to start thinking about whether and how long the payback period comes. And in a place like CA where gas is $4.50 or so and electricity is $0.35+/kWh, the payback period for a $15K adder is QUITE long. If you're driving something that gets 25 mpg and gas is $4.50, and you drive a semi-normal 1K mi/mo, you're spending $180/month on gas. Which means even if electricity were free, you're saving $70/month over that extra $250(+)/mo you'd be paying in a car payment. (Again, a little unfair b/c someone like me will be considering the period over which that $15K is allocated being 10+ years, not 5.)

IMHO I think my point stands. To see more widespread adoption, we need battery prices to come down. It doesn't need to be parity, but it needs to be a LOT closer.

The equation gets altered a bit if you pay cash upfront rather than finance. My accountant goes crazy when I do that, losing interest earned on withdrawn funds that I use to self-finance big ticket items).

But, with equity markets falling as much as they have in recent months, I wish I’d cashed in some holdings and bought a new vehicle outright for Christmas. It would have been a ‘free’ car.

Warren Buffet once observed that “Compounding interest is the Eighth Wonder of the World.” But in reality, timing is everything.

 

[mac_1103]

But, with equity markets falling as much as they have in recent months, I wish I’d cashed in some holdings and bought a new vehicle outright for Christmas. It would have been a ‘free’ car.

Or you could have shorted Tesla and bought yourself a fleet.

timing is everything.

And hindsight is 20/20. But as Yogi used to say, "Predicting is hard. Especially the future."

 

[Broothru]

Or you could have shorted Tesla and bought yourself a fleet.

And hindsight is 20/20. But as Yogi used to say, "Predicting is hard. Especially the future."

I never thought I’d Yogi and the Oracle of Omaha quoted in consecutive paragraphs. But yeah, it kinda mostly makes sense!

 

[fatjay]

I’ve been installing chargers as a side job. I did my first Tesla Wall Charger this past Sunday for a friend.

With no labor costs, why has it cost so much for you? Did you have to upgrade your whole panel? Super long run?

Materials have never cost me more than $300 for a job, most of that being the 6ga cable.

I’m doing another one next week. My best friend is picking up the new Volvo full-sized ev suv. XC90 I think?

I fully agree that the current state of EVs pretty much requires one to have home charging. I love my Tesla (my second), but if I lost access to home charging, both it and my wife’s Mach E would be the next things to go.

150' of 2-2-2-4 direct burial wire, a trencher for a day. I do not have 220v in my shop, just a 20a 110v line. Which I was using to charge on level 1. However winter came and it would pull 1500w, but only 400w would make it into the battery, rest went into conditioning the battery and the charging circuit. During summer time, that same 1500w would be pulled, but 1200w would make it into the battery. My shop is not heated.

 

[Airborneguy]

That’s a long run, makes sense now. The ones I’ve done have all been in or around the main house/garage, usually within 50’ of the panel. Mine is literally right next to my panel.

 

[Broothru]

That’s a long run, makes sense now. The ones I’ve done have all been in or around the main house/garage, usually within 50’ of the panel. Mine is literally right next to my panel.

Just for my info, what's a typical loss over distance? My main box is on the opposite side of the house to my garage, and the linear distance from mains to outlet would be close to 50', all indoors, to the unheated garage. What's the formula for calculating resistance losses for 10 ga copper Romex?

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

There are BEV's without super tech, but they also seem to come with a joke of a battery which results in abysmal range. What I haven't seen yet is a basic BEV without all the options, with a chunky battery that can go the distance. And as someone else said, they're quick. But they don't need to be.

I bet you could make a honda fit with stripped down everything, with a 120hp electric motor, and a big chunky battery, and that thing will do 250+ miles on a charge easy. EV's don't have to ALL have neck breaking acceleration or top speed. You can make crappy ones, too.

And that was part of my point in the bit that I self-quoted in one of my posts above (because it was stuff I'd written on another forum).

If there's one thing that history has proven, it's that Americans are generally NOT a big fan of little econo-box vehicles. There are some people in this country who buy those because they can't afford more. There are some as well who buy them because they have zero ego and choose to do so as a little cheap commuter car. I had a boss like that in the late 'oughts... He had a big SUV for the family, but commuting to/from work was a little Honda Fit (or similar). He made PLENTY of money, so it's not like he couldn't have had something else.

However, the problem with the battery cost is that once you make that tiny little econo-box vehicle into a BEV with a chunky battery and 250+ mile range, it's no longer econo. It's just a slow, expensive, tiny box. Which means that the people who buy that type of vehicle because it's all they can afford can't afford it, and the people who buy it as their tiny little commuter car because it's insanely cheap compared to their people-hauler don't buy it, because it's no longer insanely cheap. They buy the Nissan Leaf instead because they don't need the range.

But even a Nissan Leaf with 149 mile range starts at $28K, whereas the Honda Fit starts at $16K. So at some point it's likely that there are non-economic justifications (environmental, emotional, etc) for almost doubling the price of your little commuter vehicle to make it a BEV.

 

[Airborneguy]

Just for my info, what's a typical loss over distance? My main box is on the opposite side of the house to my garage, and the linear distance from mains to outlet would be close to 50', all indoors, to the unheated garage. What's the formula for calculating resistance losses for 10 ga copper Romex?

Honestly I don’t get into the engineering aspects because it tends to be irrelevant to the placement of home chargers. For most, the installation location is what it is and local code takes precedence so there’s not much room for mitigating loss (if its even worth addressing).

My installations tend to be under 50’ runs, usually well under. This past weekend I only ran about 12’ of cable from a brand new 50’ roll. The job next weekend will be roughly the same. Around here, most panels are located in the garage so it’s simple. Though I will be using conduit on the next one.

Why did you ask about 10ga? Do you have a specific installation in mind? For a 50a breaker EV charging setup, the standard is 6ga.

 

[Airborneguy]

Just for my info, what's a typical loss over distance? My main box is on the opposite side of the house to my garage, and the linear distance from mains to outlet would be close to 50', all indoors, to the unheated garage. What's the formula for calculating resistance losses for 10 ga copper Romex?

You did peak my interest though… lol

A 50’ run from panel to outlet using 10ga wire at 30 amps (safe amperage for 10ga) would see a loss of 1.43%

My typical run of 50’ of 6ga at 48 amps loses less than 1%.

I used an online calculator:
https://www.southwire.com/calculator-vdrop

For residential installations, voltage loss is so low that it’s not much of a consideration.

At work, we have to consider loss for the longer runs but again, 99% of the time we are handed completed prints before we start the job. We only make changes when a change to another part of the job causes an impact on our installation.

 

[fatjay]

And that was part of my point in the bit that I self-quoted in one of my posts above (because it was stuff I'd written on another forum).

If there's one thing that history has proven, it's that Americans are generally NOT a big fan of little econo-box vehicles. There are some people in this country who buy those because they can't afford more. There are some as well who buy them because they have zero ego and choose to do so as a little cheap commuter car. I had a boss like that in the late 'oughts... He had a big SUV for the family, but commuting to/from work was a little Honda Fit (or similar). He made PLENTY of money, so it's not like he couldn't have had something else.

However, the problem with the battery cost is that once you make that tiny little econo-box vehicle into a BEV with a chunky battery and 250+ mile range, it's no longer econo. It's just a slow, expensive, tiny box. Which means that the people who buy that type of vehicle because it's all they can afford can't afford it, and the people who buy it as their tiny little commuter car because it's insanely cheap compared to their people-hauler don't buy it, because it's no longer insanely cheap. They buy the Nissan Leaf instead because they don't need the range.

But even a Nissan Leaf with 149 mile range starts at $28K, whereas the Honda Fit starts at $16K. So at some point it's likely that there are non-economic justifications (environmental, emotional, etc) for almost doubling the price of your little commuter vehicle to make it a BEV.

I agree that americans generally are not a fan of little ecobox vehicles, or at least I thought. Lately I'm seeing them everywhere, and it's a bit shocking. If one of those things runs under my truck, they're done. I would never drive one, but if folks want to, it's their money.

If a honda fit is 16k, and you remove the engine, that's what, 2k? Add a $500 motor and a 50kwh battery, and you're maybe 18k. Sure there is some engineering cost that has to be regained, but honda is good at that stuff.

The nissan leaf's 28k price tag seems outrageous. There has to be some bloat in there that can be cut out.

But I suspect we're going to face the same problem as before, infrastructure. Anyone who's buying a budget honda fit or equivalent isn't going to be home charging. And public charging, well, that's basically $11.70/gal gas.

I get .45kwh to a mile. The public charger is $0.45/kwh So that's pretty easy math, $0.45 per mile. My wife's jaguar e-pace gets 26mpg, gas is right now $3.13/gal. That's $0.12 per mile. I'm paying nearly 4x to move a mile as my wife. And even my home electric rate is $0.19/kwh so at the best rates I'm nearly double the gas equivalent.

Yes tesla's claim .25kwh to a mile, but my car also claims .3kwh/mile, i'm basing it on what i'm seeing in real life. And I can pull up any of my wife's trips in the jaguar app and see her mileage from 22-28mpg average per trip. Even I get 18mpg as I'm a bit more spirited, but it's not enough to tip the scales.

When you consider most people can't home charge, the cost of the vehicle is more, the cost to fuel it is more, the cost to insure it is more, then there's that pesky "it might burst into flames" thing in the back of your mind. How can people possibly claim it's ready for the mainstream?

I'm not saying it won't get there. Someone has to fund it, and that's the early adapters. Just like computers, cell phones, or virtually any other technology in the past 30 years. Forcing people to do it when they're not ready is going to hurt them, and it will create resentment and possibly push them back into a gasser.

 

[Kharnynb]

And that was part of my point in the bit that I self-quoted in one of my posts above (because it was stuff I'd written on another forum).

If there's one thing that history has proven, it's that Americans are generally NOT a big fan of little econo-box vehicles. There are some people in this country who buy those because they can't afford more. There are some as well who buy them because they have zero ego and choose to do so as a little cheap commuter car. I had a boss like that in the late 'oughts... He had a big SUV for the family, but commuting to/from work was a little Honda Fit (or similar). He made PLENTY of money, so it's not like he couldn't have had something else.

However, the problem with the battery cost is that once you make that tiny little econo-box vehicle into a BEV with a chunky battery and 250+ mile range, it's no longer econo. It's just a slow, expensive, tiny box. Which means that the people who buy that type of vehicle because it's all they can afford can't afford it, and the people who buy it as their tiny little commuter car because it's insanely cheap compared to their people-hauler don't buy it, because it's no longer insanely cheap. They buy the Nissan Leaf instead because they don't need the range.

But even a Nissan Leaf with 149 mile range starts at $28K, whereas the Honda Fit starts at $16K. So at some point it's likely that there are non-economic justifications (environmental, emotional, etc) for almost doubling the price of your little commuter vehicle to make it a BEV.

We have the Dacia Spring here, it's also 150 mile range, but about 17000 euro

 

[sibelman]

We have the Dacia Spring here, it's also 150 mile range, but about 17000 euro

How does that price compare to a somewhat similar ICE car (basic Renault or Volkswagen) ?

 

[fatjay]

That’s a long run, makes sense now. The ones I’ve done have all been in or around the main house/garage, usually within 50’ of the panel. Mine is literally right next to my panel.

Yes that would be easier. But my panel box is on the far side of the house and my entire back patio is concrete, so I had to go around the long way.

I picked the worst possible configuration. This is not to scale but gives you an idea. The red is the power line because the grey boxes are concrete slabs.

 

[Bilsch]

then there's that pesky "it might burst into flames" thing in the back of your mind. How can people possibly claim it's ready for the mainstream?

So many people repeat this but never bother to look up the data. According to NFPA statistics ICE cars are 58 times more likely to burst into flames than an EV. Yes 58 times!

 

[Bilsch]

I get .45kwh to a mile. The public charger is $0.45/kwh So that's pretty easy math, $0.45 per mile. My wife's jaguar e-pace gets 26mpg, gas is right now $3.13/gal. That's $0.12 per mile. I'm paying nearly 4x to move a mile as my wife. And even my home electric rate is $0.19/kwh so at the best rates I'm nearly double the gas equivalen

Yes tesla's claim .25kwh to a mile, but my car also claims .3kwh/mile, i'm basing it on what i'm seeing in real life. And I can pull up any of my wife's trips in the jaguar app and see her mileage from 22-28mpg average per trip. Even I get 18mpg as I'm a bit more spirited, but it's not enough to tip the scales.

I think your cost would be $.20/ mile using public chargers. My 2018 Tesla S gets 3 miles to the kWh so using a supercharger that’s 16 cents per mile. If I charge at home at my utilities price of 12 cents a kWh that’s 4 cents a mile and if I factor in my solar it’s about 2 cents.

Last I read 67% of people, at least in North America live in a house so most people could actually charge at home.

 

[fatjay]

So many people repeat this but never bother to look up the data. According to NFPA statistics ICE cars are 58 times more likely to burst into flames than an EV. Yes 58 times!

I'm not saying it's founded, but in 40 years i've never had a gas car burst into flames. I've also never had an ev burst into flames, but my time with an ev is considerably less than gas cars, so i can only go by what i hear on the news.

 

[fatjay]

I think your cost would be $.20/ mile using public chargers. My 2018 Tesla S gets 3 miles to the kWh so using a supercharger that’s 16 cents per mile. If I charge at home at my utilities price of 12 cents a kWh that’s 4 cents a mile and if I factor in my solar it’s about 2 cents.

Last I read 67% of people, at least in North America live in a house so most people could actually charge at home.

That number may be accurate. But i think it may be skewed when you take into account single family homes typically have 4+ people living in htem, including children, where apartments have less population density per unit. I'm not saying htat's the case, but there are a lot of conditions that can skew that figure.

Then there's single family homes that the power is not close to the garage parking space, which makes a big expense to get the power to where hte parking is. So people may not do it.

My power is far from my garage, I'm doing it myself, so it's cheap, but those that can't, it's very expensive.

It's not fair to factor solar for hte general population, because solar is a very niche subject. I have 11kw of panels, 18kw of inverter, and 90kwh of battery. I'm adding 11kw of panels by EOY. I am not the normal person, neither are you. So you can't really consider these circumstances for the average person.

 

[Kharnynb]

How does that price compare to a somewhat similar ICE car (basic Renault or Volkswagen) ?

Really cheap, about 2-4000 over a similar ice car

 

[Kent88]

I agree that americans generally are not a fan of little ecobox vehicles, or at least I thought. Lately I'm seeing them everywhere

From what I understand, people who buy an EV rarely go back to an ICEV. Barring a disaster, we plan on replacing our Jeep with at least a PHEV in a few years when we trade it. I'm hoping that we'll never buy another pure ICE vehicle.

, and it's a bit shocking. If one of those things runs under my truck, they're done. I would never drive one, but if folks want to, it's their money.

So... maybe don't run over anyone? I don't understand this statement.

When you consider most people can't home charge, the cost of the vehicle is more

So far. We're in the early stages of implementing charging networks. Barring a disaster, things are going to change a lot over the next 10 years.

then there's that pesky "it might burst into flames" thing in the back of your mind. How can people possibly claim it's ready for the mainstream?

As bilsch stated, this is FUD coming from people who are anti -EV. Also, cellphones and laptops used to burst into flames, and it's likely that you keep your phone in your hands or pocket for a heavy majority of your waking hours. It ended up barely being a hiccup in the road to cellphone adoption.

I'm not saying it won't get there. Someone has to fund it, and that's the early adapters. Just like computers, cell phones, or virtually any other technology in the past 30 years. Forcing people to do it when they're not ready is going to hurt them, and it will create resentment and possibly push them back into a gasser.

"Won't get there"? EV technology itself is already there! I feel just as safe driving my Bolt as I did any of the ICE vehicles I used to drive in it's role. It can go just as fast. It handles snow and ice pretty much as well as they did.

The problems surrounding BEVs, as I see them, are unrelated to the technology, driveability, usability.

The way I see it, the problems buyers encounter with BEVs now are FUD, infrastructure, and purchase price. I won't dive deep into FUD as this isn't Debate, but I will acknowledge it exists and there have been lots of examples of it here in this thread. Infrastructure, basically fast and publicly available charging, is something that has been improving and can continue to improve. Purchase price is also something that should improve as companies streamline their supply chains. My Bolt, for a new BEV, was pretty affordable. It was an example of a good BEV from a domestic brand that ended up to be under $30k (not getting into specifics on pricing). I would still say it was too expensive for a lot of people, but it (and maybe the Leaf?) are a testament to how companies can make good, affordable BEVs if they want to.