Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?

[Broothru]

 

[Broothru]

A Volvo 120? A man after my own heart!

When my wife and I were first married (56 years ago!) we drove a 1956 Mercedes 190SL "hand-me-down" her father loaned us while we got established. Imagine 2 college kids working on advanced degrees driving around in a 2 seater sports car. Anyway, we soon advanced to a new 1971 Volvo 144E, the first model to sport electronic fuel injection. We drove the wheels off that car, or so we believed. Seven moves and 7 years later, from Kansas to Florida to Mississippi to Texas to Maryland and finally Maine, our trusty Volvo had taken us and our German Shepherd, Woodstock, on a life of adventures, when Child #1 suddenly needed the back seat of our trusted sedan, necessitating replacing the sedan with a family-friendly Volvo 245DL station wagon. I took delivery of the car the same morning my wife and son came home from being picked up at the hospital in it.

That vehicle safely and reliably carried the three of us, plus Woodstock, through life's journey from cold Maine nights back to sweltering Texas (again) days, to Arkansas back to Maryland (again) to California back to Maryland (yet again), but this time for a more permanent stay. Along the way we gained another toddler but no longer had the faithful dog . In between, there was an estimated 350,000 miles accumulated on three separate odometers, which kept on breaking and needing replacement, until I finally just gave up on knowing or even caring what the actual mileage was. Fittingly, the vehicle that our son first came home in was the same vehicle he learned to drive in at Age 16. Regrettably he finally was able to accomplish, by Age 17, something my wife and I had been unable to do up to that point: drive it into oblivion.

After 17 years of service, the kind that legends are made of, the 'Family Truckster' was replaced with a new Volvo S60 in 1995 which was joined 18 years later in 2013 with the current S60 that still shares a garage with our Prius Hybrid. Until last year, the 1995 Volvo continued to share a driveway with our son's other vehicles, 30 years after its original purchase. The hope was that our 12 year old grand-daughter would learn to drive in it. Along with all the Volvos, we've owned a GM Saturn, a Ford Taurus, two Ford minivans, two Ford pickup trucks, a Chrysler Cirrus, and, most recently, six Mercedes Sprinter vans. The only 'constant' throughout the 56 years of our married life has been the ownership of at least one Volvo at all times. The current S60 has one minor scratch, but otherwise immaculate interior and exterior. has always been garaged and dealership maintained, with just over 90,000 miles on the odometer. It's going in tomorrow for routine maintenance, and repair of either a serpentine belt or air conditioning compressor bearing replacement, which will be the first major unscheduled repair in the 12 years we've owned it.

So the answer to the question, "Do you like Volvos?", my unequivocal answer would be, "You're damn Skippy, I do."

 

[sibelman]

I just wish Toyota would get in the game

Their first effort, the bZ4X (with its mate, Subaru's Solterra), had early troubles with lug nuts loosening -- especially shocking from such a well-established company. Honda has been slow too, but their planned "0" series looks wonderful.

I wonder whether brand loyalty (to Toyota, Volvo, whoever) needs reconsideration as companies make the transition to electric. Some previously fine firms may stumble. I want to see a solid track record with EVs, along with a solid history of building good cars. Nissan Leaf in 2012, Chevy Bolt in 2018 - both in their merely second model year - I've done my time as a somewhat cautious early adopter.

 

[mac_1103]

I've certainly reconsidered my brand loyalty to Toyota in the last few years. Based mostly on price. Last car I bought was a 2021 Honda Accord hybrid; the Camrys and Avalons that I looked at were wildly overpriced by comparison. The same was true of the CRV/RAV4 comparison. That was at the height of COVID supply chain disruptions of course, but the impression I get is that Toyotas are still priced as if those disruptions haven't gotten any better. Their current BEV and PHEV offerings just don't seem like very good value propositions.

 

[Kharnynb]

secondhand toyota is just not worth it any more, kia has some good and solid phev hybrids, for pure electrics i've not seen something i really want in my price range yet, vw really messed up the id buzz, i'd have been all over that if they just stuck closer to og vw van styling.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I wonder whether brand loyalty (to Toyota, Volvo, whoever) needs reconsideration as companies make the transition to electric. Some previously fine firms may stumble. I want to see a solid track record with EVs, along with a solid history of building good cars. Nissan Leaf in 2012, Chevy Bolt in 2018 - both in their merely second model year - I've done my time as a somewhat cautious early adopter.

Yeah, I want to be sure if/when I make the switch that whatever brand I choose has had enough time to ascend the EV learning curve to be reliable. And that's a little harder given that I tend to buy 2-3 year old used cars rather than new off a lot, so I have to factor in them ascending the learning curve AND having a few years of having already been established there.

This puts me in a more difficult position if I'm looking in the 2027-28 time frame. I do think the Korean brands will have made it by that point. I'll have to see where Ford/GM are. I have a long-standing distrust of German automakers as it relates to reliability/value calculation. And I don't think Toyota/Honda will be there, despite my long-standing trust of both brands.

But as I also said, as kids leave the nest and if I'm still working from home, as long as my current vehicle doesn't die I might just prefer to keep it, keep the $0 monthly car payment, and drive it 'til the wheels fall off. Just got back from a long weekend around Sonoma/Napa and it's like a freakin' La-Z-Boy on wheels.

 

[mac_1103]

it's like a freakin' La-Z-Boy on wheels

I'm afraid I would fall asleep if I drove a car that was too comfortable.

 

[mashdar]

I've certainly reconsidered my brand loyalty to Toyota in the last few years. Based mostly on price. Last car I bought was a 2021 Honda Accord hybrid; the Camrys and Avalons that I looked at were wildly overpriced by comparison. The same was true of the CRV/RAV4 comparison. That was at the height of COVID supply chain disruptions of course, but the impression I get is that Toyotas are still priced as if those disruptions haven't gotten any better. Their current BEV and PHEV offerings just don't seem like very good value propositions.

At least 15 months ago, they were still selling RAV4 prime as fast as they could make them. My impression was that they were out of a bunch of other stuff, too, e.g. Sienna, RAV4 hybrid.

For PHEV, they're supposedly in a different reliability league from everything else, although I think that was based on CR, so giant mountain of salt. https://www.consumerreports.org/car...-reliable-than-conventional-cars-a1047214174/

 

[Broothru]

Their first effort, the bZ4X (with its mate, Subaru's Solterra), had early troubles with lug nuts loosening -- especially shocking from such a well-established company. Honda has been slow too, but their planned "0" series looks wonderful.

I wonder whether brand loyalty (to Toyota, Volvo, whoever) needs reconsideration as companies make the transition to electric. Some previously fine firms may stumble. I want to see a solid track record with EVs, along with a solid history of building good cars. Nissan Leaf in 2012, Chevy Bolt in 2018 - both in their merely second model year - I've done my time as a somewhat cautious early adopter.

I’ll have to disagree a bit with regards to Toyota. We’ve had very good luck with our 2017 Prius. The only major complaint is the limited ~33 mile range on battery power. Otherwise, it’s been a very reliable daily driver for 68,000 miles.

SWMBO’d and I just got back from dropping off the 2013 Volvo for routine service, so we had to look at the EV and hybrid Volvos on the lot. We both thought the XC-90 SUV was too large (7 pax) for our needs. SWMBO’d liked the XC-40 SUV, probably because it’s near in size to the Prius, though much higher in elevation. I think it’s too small. For me the XC-60 was in the ‘Goldilocks Zone” for size.

However, the XC-60 is only available in gasoline or hybrid configurations, and hybrid range is only 40 miles. The XC-40 and XC-90 are non-hybrid EVs, in addition to gasoline only configurations. I rather like hybrid platforms, if only for the perceived sense of flexibility, irrational as it actually is, but if I wanted a car with only 30-40 miles per electric charge, I’d get another Prius.

Either way, we don’t need a new vehicle, and if we did buy an EV (or even a new hybrid) I’d finally feel compelled to install 240V50A service to the garage ($2K) for Level 2 charging, and prolly want at least 5kW of permanent solar panels mounted on the roof of the garage ($10K).

 

[Broothru]

I've certainly reconsidered my brand loyalty to Toyota in the last few years. Based mostly on price. Last car I bought was a 2021 Honda Accord hybrid; the Camrys and Avalons that I looked at were wildly overpriced by comparison. The same was true of the CRV/RAV4 comparison. That was at the height of COVID supply chain disruptions of course, but the impression I get is that Toyotas are still priced as if those disruptions haven't gotten any better. Their current BEV and PHEV offerings just don't seem like very good value propositions.

For quite some time, Toyota seemed to be on the hydrogen generator bandwagon. Nice theory, wrong infrastructure, monumental downside risks to overcome. They appear to have quietly walked away from R&D in that endeavor and may have gotten behind in EV and hybrid development after being an early leader. The future now appears to be in new battery technologies. LiFePO4 is only a waypoint, but is the best we’ve got so far.

 

[mac_1103]

I’ll have to disagree a bit with regards to Toyota. We’ve had very good luck with our 2017 Prius.

I had great luck with my 2009 Prius. And my 2012 Camry hybrid. And my 2013 Prius. But I'm just not interested in shelling out what they want for a RAV4 Prime and the range on the bZ4x is pretty disappointing IMO.

 

[pinemarten]

I've been seriously considering a F150 Lightening, but Ford seems hellbent on making moves that get potential customers to wait for the next generation. My biggest drawback is they keep removing features or restricting them to ever higher trim levels. They have done some smart stuff. Covering the cost of a the installation of a charger was a good move and everyone likes 0% APY. But if you spend any time reading owners forums, everybody says get a 2023 model before they made all the good stuff, like Power Pro, only included on the absurdly priced Platinum trims.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I'm afraid I would fall asleep if I drove a car that was too comfortable.

There's no way I'd attempt an overnight-style drive like I would have done 20 years ago. Not in any car at this point tbh , but DEFINITELY not in that thing!

I don't plan drives that will stress my ability to stay awake. Just too much risk. I can get up and leave at 3 AM. Heck, half the time I'm laying there awake at that hour anyway. But I don't want to be zoning on empty freeway miles at 11 PM.

But I did a straight-through drive in that thing to southern OR, 800 miles or so, took 12 hours, and felt just fine at the end of it. It just eats miles.

I personally was sad that Ford discontinued the Flex. It was "dad cool", like my New Balance and cargo shorts.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I've been seriously considering a F150 Lightening, but Ford seems hellbent on making moves that get potential customers to wait for the next generation. My biggest drawback is they keep removing features or restricting them to ever higher trim levels. They have done some smart stuff. Covering the cost of a the installation of a charger was a good move and everyone likes 0% APY. But if you spend any time reading owners forums, everybody says get a 2023 model before they made all the good stuff, like Power Pro, only included on the absurdly priced Platinum trims.

This, to me, highlights the issue with BEV adoption. Ultimately batteries are just too expensive.

I was doing an analysis of this the other day, elsewhere...

A BEV comparable in trim/etc to an ICEV is not comparable in cost.

A Hyundai Tucson and a Hyundai Ioniq 5 are relatively comparable. The Tucson MSRP starts at $28K, and the Ioniq 5 at $42K. The same is true for the Elantra ($21K) vs Ioniq 6 ($37K).

The lowest-end F150 SuperCrew starts at $43K. According to the Ford web site, the Lightning starts at $62K.

Honestly an EV light duty truck would be ideal for me. I used to drive a Ford Ranger. It was great. Having a pickup truck available is a TREMENDOUSLY convenient luxury in life, and once the kids start leaving the house, I don't need a big people-hauler vehicle. But at the same time, I don't do nearly enough "truck stuff" to justify something the size and capability of an F-150.

But a brand new Ranger starts at about $32K. If an EV ranger was suddenly $47K, I'd nope right the eff out of that idea. I'm not spending nearly 50 grand on a light duty truck.

Trying to shoehorn EV batteries into carmakers' premier heaviest vehicles (large SUVs, pickups) is probably a difficult sale. However 1) Americans don't like buying little econoboxes, and 2) the problem with trying to make even a little econobox with 250+ mile range is that the battery makes it a little box, sans econo. If you're adding $15K in battery cost, it's a tough sale for the sort of people that would buy that sort of vehicle.

I think carmakers are trying to get "EV" into their most expensive big vehicle [and/or luxury] platforms because that's where the adder of the EV battery is the smallest percentage cost adder, and where the buyers are more affluent and can more easily handle the added upfront cost of BEV.

Ultimately the battery costs have to keep coming down.

As I said, a Ranger-equivalent BEV light truck would be really nice. I really miss my Ranger. Such a useful vehicle. I never once wished it were an F150. But one of the benefits of buying a small inexpensive light truck is the "inexpensive" part. If I have to calculate how many years it'll take to pay off an extra $15K in battery cost... And for most people, the interest payments on that added $15K in principal on your car loan... I'm not sure I'd be pulling the trigger on said EV.

 

[mac_1103]

I really miss my Ranger. Such a useful vehicle. I never once wished it were an F150.

Just out of curiosity, what year was that Ranger? Because there's really nothing "compact" about a current generation Ranger (or Tacoma or Frontier etc).

I kinda wish they made a BEV or PHEV Maverick, but at least they started making an AWD hybrid version this year.

 

[Kent88]

I kinda wish they made a BEV or PHEV Maverick, but at least they started making an AWD hybrid version this year.

A friend of mine and fellow BEV enthusiast has been gushing over the Maverick for years and tells me often that he thinks a BEV Maverick is just a couple years away.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Just out of curiosity, what year was that Ranger? Because there's really nothing "compact" about a current generation Ranger (or Tacoma or Frontier etc).

2000. It was extended cab (XLT) but had the jump seats that fold down from the sides, so the back seat was basically non-functional for adults. Had it from 2003-2012.

 

[Bilsch]

This, to me, highlights the issue with BEV adoption. Ultimately batteries are just too expensive.

It’s still 1/3 to 1/5 the cost of gas to drive an EV. Who cares how much the batteries cost.

 

[mac_1103]

2000. It was extended cab (XLT) but had the jump seats that fold down from the sides, so the back seat was basically non-functional for adults. Had it from 2003-2012.

That really was the sweet spot for lightweight trucks IMO. A 2025 Ranger is the size of a 2000 F150.

Who cares how much the batteries cost.

People looking at the cost of the vehicle? $15K buys a lot of gas.

 

[mashdar]

People looking at the cost of the vehicle? $15K buys a lot of gas.

Yeah, at $4/gal, 30mpg, $0.15/kwh, and 3mi/kwh, you're saving $0.083 per mile, or $833 per 10,000 miles. Not nothing, but not huge.

A $30,000 car you keep for 10 years costs you $8.22 per day before counting fuel and maintenance. If you drive 25mi/day, you're saving $2.08 a day going electric, so the amortized cost of the vehicle is swamping any savings.

 

[Bilsch]

Yeah, at $4/gal, 30mpg, $0.15/kwh, and 3mi/kwh, you're saving $0.083 per mile, or $833 per 10,000 miles. Not nothing, but not huge.

A $30,000 car you keep for 10 years costs you $8.22 per day before counting fuel and maintenance. If you drive 25mi/day, you're saving $2.08 a day going electric, so the amortized cost of the vehicle is swamping any savings.

But you forget maintenance which is not nothing. In 8 years my car has been in the shop exactly twice. For tires. Imagine how long you have waited for oil changes etc. my cost to drive is $0.025 per mile.

 

[mashdar]

But you forget maintenance which is not nothing. In 8 years my car has been in the shop exactly twice. For tires. Imagine how long you have waited for oil changes etc. my cost to drive is $0.025 per mile.

Do you get electricity for under $0.10/kwh, and >4mi/kwh with conversion losses? Or maybe you're calling your solar $0?

Also, it sounds like you skip the recommended maintenance. E.g. do you not rotate your tires? Replace brake fluid, coolant, etc? (Or are you not counting stuff you do at home?)

I live in a state with inspections, so I let the corner shop do everything they can find to work on once a year. I wouldn't want to drive the family without regular (yearly) review of the most dangerous thing we use, regardless of energy source.

But to each their own. My only point was that the cost to purchase typically exceeds cost to fuel over the life of most new cars. edit: And if you adjust for present value, the difference is even more stark. I went through this exercise for RAV4 prime vs hybrid, and it basically never breaks even driving ~40mi on electric every day. But it's a much nicer drive.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Yeah, at $4/gal, 30mpg, $0.15/kwh, and 3mi/kwh, you're saving $0.083 per mile, or $833 per 10,000 miles. Not nothing, but not huge.

Here in CA it's about $4.50/gal right now, but it's about $0.35-$0.52/kWh depending on time of day. The time I'd be charging (9 pm - 8 am) would be about $0.39/kWh. But if I got home from work and immediately plugged in during peak time (4-9 pm) that'd be the $0.52/kWh. So I'd have to either wait or schedule the charging not to start until 9 pm.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

It’s still 1/3 to 1/5 the cost of gas to drive an EV. Who cares how much the batteries cost.

My point was about adoption. Most people base their car purchases on the monthly payment. If a BEV is $15K more than an "equivalent" ICEV, and you assume 60-month financing, even at 0% interest that's a $250/month higher payment.

Now, that's not really fair... The issue is that not all of that $15K increase is the battery. It's also the trim level. But you can buy a "base" Hyundai Tucson for $28K but a the Ioniq 5 starts at $42K ($14K adder), and you can buy a "base" F150 SuperCrew for $43K but the Lightning starts at $62K ($19K adder). Of course, the Ioniq 5 or the F150 Lightning will be at a much higher trim level than the base models of the other two... But if you're absolutely forced into certain trim levels to buy the BEV and lower-trim packages aren't even available, that still means the minimum cost of entry is a HUGE difference.

Don't take this as me being anti-EV, mind you. When the time comes for me to replace my wonderful Ford Flex, I will certainly be considering an EV. Because I tend to keep cars for 10+ years, and because I'm less price-sensitive than many car buyers, ultimately I'm simply going to buy whatever I want. And that might well be a BEV. I absolutely see some of the advantages of BEV, especially as someone with a heavy right foot who really likes torque

But the cost of batteries means that a BEV isn't going to be close to equivalent yet for someone who just needs a basic reliable "go from point A to B" car. And because of that, the automakers target buyers who are going to be wanting more than just a basic reliable car--like all the fancy stuff that comes with higher level trim--which increases that cost gap further.

If the cost of entry forces me to buy extra things in a trim package that I don't want/need, then I have to start thinking about whether and how long the payback period comes. And in a place like CA where gas is $4.50 or so and electricity is $0.35+/kWh, the payback period for a $15K adder is QUITE long. If you're driving something that gets 25 mpg and gas is $4.50, and you drive a semi-normal 1K mi/mo, you're spending $180/month on gas. Which means even if electricity were free, you're saving $70/month over that extra $250(+)/mo you'd be paying in a car payment. (Again, a little unfair b/c someone like me will be considering the period over which that $15K is allocated being 10+ years, not 5.)

IMHO I think my point stands. To see more widespread adoption, we need battery prices to come down. It doesn't need to be parity, but it needs to be a LOT closer.

 

[mac_1103]

To see more widespread adoption, we need battery prices to come down.

And as you allude to, we also need manufacturers to offer more EVs in base trim levels.

 

[fatjay]

IMHO I think my point stands. To see more widespread adoption, we need battery prices to come down. It doesn't need to be parity, but it needs to be a LOT closer.

Why do we need widespread adoption? Why just let hte industry die or survive on it's own? People that want battery, get battery. People that want gas, get gas. If you want a steam powered car, that should be your choice.

There's no need to be pushed in one way or another, folks can make their own choice.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

And as you allude to, we also need manufacturers to offer more EVs in base trim levels.

Why?

The people who buy base trim levels are THE most price-sensitive consumers that exist. They're the lease likely consumers IMHO to pay the BEV premium. Oh, and a larger portion of those consumers who are so price-sensitive rent, in situations where at-home charging won't give them cheaper charging rates. They're more likely to be beholden to L2 public chargers that basically negate the cost advantage of BEV vs ICEV.

There's probably a very small population of unicorn car buyers who own their home and have garages where they can/will install a home charger, who want base trim, and at the same time want and can afford a BEV. But is it enough of a market to offer that product? I'm not really sure... And how many of those consumers, if they REALLY want a BEV for whatever reason, will just suck it up and take a higher trim because they can afford it? Offering the low trim model might just cannibalize sales [and profit margin] from higher trim levels, from consumers able to afford it.

So I'd [honestly and sincerely] would like to know... What buyer and what market, in the US specifically, does a base model BEV serve? Do you think that market is significant enough to support the effort?

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Why do we need widespread adoption? Why just let hte industry die or survive on it's own? People that want battery, get battery. People that want gas, get gas. If you want a steam powered car, that should be your choice.

There's no need to be pushed in one way or another, folks can make their own choice.

I'm with you. I don't think of these things as some sort of ideological divide. BEV is just an alternative powertrain option for vehicles. It has advantages over ICEV, and it has disadvantages to ICEV.

IMO, the advantages are somewhat compelling. As I've mentioned quite a few times previously, I come from a data storage background, and in many ways, BEV vs ICEV is similar to SSD vs HDD. Ultimately SSD proved to have such an overwhelming case for the "personal PC boot drive" use case that it's effectively won out in that market completely. However for many reasons (elucidated in white papers I've personally authored), I believe that HDD has a long future life because other extremely important and high volume use cases simply can't be adequately served by SSD.

I personally believe that in the general personal vehicle space, absent a game-changer like full autonomy vehicle-as-a-service model where personal vehicle ownership maybe ceases to be a relevant business model, that BEV vs ICEV may eventually take the same route as SSD vs HDD. But it's in the same place that SSD was a decade ago. It was at that time expensive enough that it was a luxury/performance item, too expensive for the general public. I think that's where BEV is today.

Ultimately I think economics always wins. Right now I don't see it a matter of "pushing" one way or the other. BEVs are too expensive right now and trying to "push" adoption is pushing on a string. Get the battery costs down, though? There won't be a push. There will be a consumer pull. BEVs will win in the market once they're not a significant cost premium over ICEV.

 

[mac_1103]

Why?

Because I think that there is a market for them, especially as battery costs decline. You apparently disagree. That's OK. But then why do battery costs have to come down? Do you have some particular sweet spot in mind for adoption?

I also happen to think that auto manufacturers would like to see wide(r)-spread adoption so they can recoup their investments in standing up BEV divisions a bit faster. You may disagree on that as well. Which is also OK. We're just shooting the breeze here after all.

 

[Kent88]

Why do we need widespread adoption? Why just let hte industry die or survive on it's own? People that want battery, get battery. People that want gas, get gas. If you want a steam powered car, that should be your choice.

There's no need to be pushed in one way or another, folks can make their own choice.

Oh, I'm really biting my tongue here, because the things I would like to say in response belong in Debate.