Polishing Fermenter Cone? Losses due to yeast dumping

[LCBA]

I've got a Spike CF5 and I'm generally brewing NEIPAs with LAIII yeast. After fermentation, I like to dump the yeast prior to dry hopping. Generally I will drop the temp to 60° for 1-2 days to help the yeast flocculate. Lately I've had massive loses while trying to get all the yeast out. I also can't seem to get it all to fall into the bottom of the cone. I'll go to dry hop, and the when the pellets make their way down to the cone, they bring a bunch of yeast with them.

Should I try polishing the inside of the cone? If so, with what? Should I be dropping the temperature lower to compact the yeast more? Other suggestions?

 

[pocketmon]

I am not any expert. However, according to my experience, it's impossible to "dump all the yeast out" by that way. The yeast slurry flows slower than beer does. You should have found that there is some sticky yeast/trub even after the fermenter is empty.
An alternative way to address this fluid mechanics issue is using yeast collection ball, or something like. In which way, you allow the yeast/trub to drop slowly into the ball/collector, and then the collection ball can be removed in the cost of extra beer. One disadvantage of this method is when the amount of trub is higher than the volume of the collection ball, you will have to dump twice, which might introduce oxygen. I would recommend Brewbuilt Yeast Harvester , https://brewbuilt.com/products/brewbuilt-flex-chamber-trub-separator-yeast-harvester.html. It allows you to purge oxygen when needed.

 

[cyoung1833]

I have a CF5 and follow similar process. After fermentation I go to 60 degrees and dump the yeast. I just open the valve very slowly and I don't worry about getting all yeast. I close the valve once it seems like I am getting beer instead of yeast. I dry hop then cold crash a couple days later. After cold crash I add gelatin and a couple days later I drop any yeast/hops that have compacted at the bottom. Again not worrying about getting everything just dropping enough to get clear beer at racking port.

This suggests we could dry hop at a much lower temp though.
http://scottjanish.com/a-case-for-short-and-cool-dry-hopping/

 

[shoengine]

I have the opposite problem. I've found that I have easily more than a quart of beer that my racking arm can't reach! I think I need more trub...

 

[LCBA]

I am not any expert. However, according to my experience, it's impossible to "dump all the yeast out" by that way. The yeast slurry flows slower than beer does. You should have found that there is some sticky yeast/trub even after the fermenter is empty.
An alternative way to address this fluid mechanics issue is using yeast collection ball, or something like. In which way, you allow the yeast/trub to drop slowly into the ball/collector, and then the collection ball can be removed in the cost of extra beer. One disadvantage of this method is when the amount of trub is higher than the volume of the collection ball, you will have to dump twice, which might introduce oxygen. I would recommend Brewbuilt Yeast Harvester , https://brewbuilt.com/products/brewbuilt-flex-chamber-trub-separator-yeast-harvester.html. It allows you to purge oxygen when needed.

I’ve considered making a diy collection jar like this [valve - sight glass - valve], which would serve the same purpose, maybe ill give that a shot.

 

[LCBA]

I have the opposite problem. I've found that I have easily more than a quart of beer that my racking arm can't reach! I think I need more trub...

That’s when you just open up the dump valve into your glass and enjoy!

 

[pocketmon]

I’ve considered making a diy collection jar like this [valve - sight glass - valve], which would serve the same purpose, maybe ill give that a shot.

Did I mention oxygen introduction if all the trub cann't be dumped once? Yeah, if you perform the first dump before all the sugar is consumed, it might be fine.

BTW, I also think that dumping "all" trub is not necessary. You just need to dump the most of it.

 

[LCBA]

Did I mention oxygen introduction if all the trub cann't be dumped once? Yeah, if you perform the first dump before all the sugar is consumed, it might be fine.

BTW, I also think that dumping "all" trub is not necessary. You just need to dump the most of it.

I would purge the sight glass before. In my never ending quest to brew really good NEIPAs, I've been very careful not to let any oxygen get in.

 

[shoengine]

That’s when you just open up the dump valve into your glass and enjoy!

Unfortunately there is still a bunch of yeast compacted in the bottom. Wondering if I can stick a piece of vinyl tubing over my pickup to lengthen it. When pushing CO2 it should work I think.

 

[LCBA]

Unfortunately there is still a bunch of yeast compacted in the bottom. Wondering if I can stick a piece of vinyl tubing over my pickup to lengthen it. When pushing CO2 it should work I think.

Seems like it could work, maybe use silicone tubing for its floppyness?

Side note - what rod bearings are in your avatar pic?

 

[wepeeler]

I don't think you can ever get all the yeast out. The best I've been able to do is soft crash to 50F for 24-48 hours, then dump VERY slowly under 2-4psi.

 

[shoengine]

Seems like it could work, maybe use silicone tubing for its floppyness?

Side note - what rod bearings are in your avatar pic?

Good point. I'll give that a shot next time. Fermentor has a batch in it right now so I'm going to have to wait.

The bearings are out of my 90 Taurus SHO. Had to plastigauge the bearings out of the donor engine to make sure they were OK before the rebuild. Good catch!

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Im with @wepeeler here, soft crash to 50f I'll do 48f sometimes, 2 days, or 3 even better, crack the butterfly valve slowly under low co2 pressure. A sight glass helps immensely, I'll watch the trub in the sight glass and as soon as it starts to move I shut the butterfly valve to barely leave it open. Letting the trub come out as slow as possible to avoid the liquid punching through. After the first dump I'll do a second a couple hours later then a third right before I drop my hops in. Then I let the fermenter come back up to 55f during dry hop.

 

[Skeeter686]

I'm guessing there's a reason why no one has proposed some kind of "floating dip tube" approach. Seems like you could rig something like that to a pickup tube.

 

[mashdar]

Do people not just leave the valve open? Why not?

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I'm guessing there's a reason why no one has proposed some kind of "floating dip tube" approach. Seems like you could rig something like that to a pickup tube.

The spike cf series uses an internal coil for chilling if using glycol.. floating diptube gets hung up on the coil. If using a fermentation chamber a floating dip tube could be utilized.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Do people not just leave the valve open? Why not?

I'm not following..

 

[mashdar]

I'm not following..

Everyone is talking about slowly opening the valve, but my default would be to leave the collection vessel installed and valve open, then just close the valve when it's time.

There must be some reason this is not the default?

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Everyone is talking about slowly opening the valve, but my default would be to leave the collection vessel installed and valve open, then just close the valve when it's time.

There must be some reason this is not the default?

Ahhh, for this style I don't collect yeast from my conical, I just want to get it out of the fermenter before adding dry hops to prevent hop creep. Though for what you're talking about I'd think you would want the valve closed during the majority of fermentation then drop it into the collection jar, do that the yeast can stay up in the fermenter until they are done.

 

[Broken Crow]

Everyone is talking about slowly opening the valve, but my default would be to leave the collection vessel installed and valve open, then just close the valve when it's time.

There must be some reason this is not the default?

Ahhh, for this style I don't collect yeast from my conical, I just want to get it out of the fermenter before adding dry hops to prevent hop creep. Though for what you're talking about I'd think you would want the valve closed during the majority of fermentation then drop it into the collection jar, do that the yeast can stay up in the fermenter until they are done.

Thank you both.. I have an original Fermzilla and I was gonna mention smooth sides or not, the stuff clings and never all comes out, but with the Fermzilla I leave it open... Though actually squatting down for harvesting is a bit too much for me (disabled). I've been growing to hate the thing while I love my Fermonsters and sankes...swish and dump to harvest..easy-peasy. Eye-candy though they be, I no longer have any desire whatsoever for a conical as it brings nothing but extra work to my table.
As far as extending your pickup though, try brewhardware.com .. I'm sure Bobby could make you a custom SS one at a reasonable cost so you can avoid the O2-gremlins.
Just my 2-cents.

 

[LCBA]

Everyone is talking about slowly opening the valve, but my default would be to leave the collection vessel installed and valve open, then just close the valve when it's time.

There must be some reason this is not the default?

I just bought another 2in butterfly valve so that I could create my own collection vessel with a sight glass.

So it will be [fermenter cone - valve - sight glass -valve]

We'll see how it works out! I was just disgusted to only get 3 gallons out of a 6.5 gallon batch. I also dry hopped with about 12oz of hops, so that doesn't help my case either.

 

[cyoung1833]

I just bought another 2in butterfly valve so that I could create my own collection vessel with a sight glass.

So it will be [fermenter cone - valve - sight glass -valve]

We'll see how it works out! I was just disgusted to only get 3 gallons out of a 6.5 gallon batch. I also dry hopped with about 12oz of hops, so that doesn't help my case either.

Let us know how that works out.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I just bought another 2in butterfly valve so that I could create my own collection vessel with a sight glass.

So it will be [fermenter cone - valve - sight glass -valve]

We'll see how it works out! I was just disgusted to only get 3 gallons out of a 6.5 gallon batch. I also dry hopped with about 12oz of hops, so that doesn't help my case either.

Just curious and maybe I missed it, I know you talked about getting the yeast out before dryhopping and having losses there, are you losing that much beer trying to get "all" the yeast out, or are you losing some elsewhere as well? I've brewed a ton of neipas in my cf15s and struggled filling 3 kegs for a while before I got my processes down. A sight glass definitely helps with keeping as much clean beer in the fermenter as possible while getting out as much trub as *reasonably* possible.. once I see liquid hit my sight glass I shut it down. If I have to wait a couple hours and dump again so be it.

 

[LCBA]

Just curious and maybe I missed it, I know you talked about getting the yeast out before dryhopping and having losses there, are you losing that much beer trying to get "all" the yeast out, or are you losing some elsewhere as well? I've brewed a ton of neipas in my cf15s and struggled filling 3 kegs for a while before I got my processes down. A sight glass definitely helps with keeping as much clean beer in the fermenter as possible while getting out as much trub as *reasonably* possible.. once I see liquid hit my sight glass I shut it down. If I have to wait a couple hours and dump again so be it.

Yea I'm probably spending too much time/beer trying to get all of it out. I currently use a sight glass and stop dumping if I think that the beer is punching through, then try again later. I'm hoping that this diy collection vessel and maybe dropping the temp a little colder will help.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Dropping temp further will help a lot, I now go to 48f for 2 days, sometimes 3 days then dump the yeast. Dry hop at 55f ... hopefully your little sightglass collection vessel method will work well for you. There is no 1 right way to do things, just gotta find what works for you.

 

[Climb]

Can we go back to the “polish the cone” question. No one has commented on that idea. Don’t they come with a highly polished cone, especially from Spike? I’m curious.

 

[LCBA]

Can we go back to the “polish the cone” question. No one has commented on that idea. Don’t they come with a highly polished cone, especially from Spike? I’m curious.

lol good point. They are polished, but i bought mine used, so i was wondering if i could improve upon it.

 

[wepeeler]

This is purely speculation, but I would guess that polishing the cone will not make it slick enough for the yeast to slide out easier.

 

[shoengine]

If only you could whirlpool in a fermenter...

 

[Broken Crow]

If only you could whirlpool in a fermenter...

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/spincyclesubmerge.htm
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/supersucker.htm
...don't forget to purge the lines and pump.

 

[shoengine]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should!

If only I wanted to poke a big hole in my fermentor.

 

[Broken Crow]

Can we go back to the “polish the cone” question. No one has commented on that idea. Don’t they come with a highly polished cone, especially from Spike? I’m curious.

lol good point. They are polished, but i bought mine used, so i was wondering if i could improve upon it.

Sorry... I'm bad at 'getting to the point', which in the case of my mentioning the Fermzilla as that the nicely angled surface of the plastic fermenter is every bit as smooth as the most highly polished stainless steel, but crud still clings.
I too, would expect the Spike fermenters to be properly polished as not all brands are... When the first Anvil conicals appeared before I realized my body can't tolerate the squatting down required to use them, I considered getting one but it appeared to have that same brushed SS finish on the inside as well as out... I don't know about anyone else, but I do not want a brushed finish on the inside of any of my brew-gear. I could be wrong, but as @Climb noticed; No-one who has one on this site has made any comment about what kind of finish it has on the inside.
So: Is it properly highly polished, or more budgetarily brush-polished?

Note to @shoengine ; I was actually hoping someone else may have tried it so they can tell us just how long it takes for the resultant cloud to settle back down. Thing is: if it's a brew you want 'off the trub' for whatever reason and it's one that you'll be leaving in the FV for months, I do wonder if it might be worth trying despite my instict telling me just how bad an idea that is.

 

[day_trippr]

Anyone ever try applying vibration to their conicals to help the yeast accumulation slide down to a collection vessel?

Cheers!

 

[mashdar]

Shake table ftw. You'll also find out how well built your equipment is. : D

 

[LCBA]

Anyone ever try applying vibration to their conicals to help the yeast accumulation slide down to a collection vessel?

Cheers!

I’ve considered this, I actually tried with an air hammer held up to it, but it sprays oil everywhere so I quickly abandoned that. I’m also slightly hesitant to google vibrators , but if anyone has a good suggestion of what to use I’m all ears.

 

[Skeeter686]

I’ve considered this, I actually tried with an air hammer held up to it, but it sprays oil everywhere so I quickly abandoned that. I’m also slightly hesitant to google vibrators , but if anyone has a good suggestion of what to use I’m all ears.

Attach a speaker driver or two to it and then crank up some tunes!

Not really related, but I recently heard about a brand of whiskey (don't recall the name) where they accelerate the barrel aging process by putting the barrels in a shed where they crank up Metallica to extreme levels. Apparently, the vibrations produce the effects of aging in a fraction of the normal time. Plus, they've got the gimmick of aging on heavy metal.

 

[LCBA]

Here’s what I’m going to try next time. Need to think about it a bit more since it extends low enough that I can’t use my elbow without undoing it. Should be too much of an issue though.

 

[shoengine]

I feel like due to friction some trub will always stick to the side and then slowly infiltrate the beer, but the sight glass is an interesting way to look at the process of whatever outcome there is.

 

[LCBA]

View attachment 859894
Here’s what I’m going to try next time. Need to think about it a bit more since it extends low enough that I can’t use my elbow without undoing it. Should be too much of an issue though.

Following up on this setup - so far I’ve only dumped trub/yeast, but it’s been working very well. Close the top valve and open the bottom, no wort punching through, and I also know exactly how much each dump will remove (700ml).