Plastic boil kettles (pail)

[Terek]

Heard you will need 2 circuits for 2x1500W elements. Is that true?. Also read a 120V outlet will push a max of 1350W.

well, my space heater in my brew room pulls 2200w on high, and runs fine off of a 120v outlet. Thats what its designed for. But, if the space heater is running and my ferm. chamber's hair dryer (1500w) kicks on, it throws the 20 amp breaker.

 

[Hello]

I don't think your max wattage draw on a standard 120v outlet is limited like that. It could be, what's the amp of your outlet? 15 or 20?

I would use two anyway, but you have to be sure they're not on the same circuit I think.

Regarding plastic, there is a company that sells full systems made of plastic. Someone told me about the link once and I cannot find it. It made a whole lot of sense and saves a great deal of money. I went stainless because I had stainless already as I set up my electric brewery. I would not be opposed to plastic TBH.

 

[augiedoggy]

I've been wondering if the stc 1-000 I run my coffee maker sous-vide machine with can handle the draw from two tea elements on the same circuit simultaneously. I've been thinking about doing what Gash did here with a relay on it, if I go stc to control it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4xZx7VO2U4#t=5m10s


Edit, of course there's a thread on external relays with stc-1000s on here already....

If you use an inexpensive relay for the load with it like this,
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Square-D-Co...864393?hash=item25addf0609:g:VYUAAOSwFnFV9t-G
you can use one stc1000 to control power for 2 separate circuits at the same time.. I do this with them in my glycol conical temp control panel... when the stc says cool I have it switch a dual relay which turns on my 240v chiller recirc pump as well as my 24v solenoid valve for that conical... its actually very easy to wire up.

 

[dyqik]

Heard you will need 2 circuits for 2x1500W elements. Is that true?. Also read a 120V outlet will push a max of 1350W.

Obligatory Warning: Please consult someone who actually knows about electrics before you do anything. At the very least read and make sure you understand the electrical primer stickied at the top of this subforum. And forget whatever it was you were reading before, because it's wrong on very simple basic math/physics.

Power = current x voltage = 15A maximum x 120V for a typical US circuit = 1800W maximum. This is the maximum power that can be drawn from one 15A circuit. If you plug a higher power element in, or two elements totalling more power, more than 15A of current will be drawn, and the breaker will trip.

If you want to run two elements totalling more than 1800W, you need to use two 15A circuits - that is, two outlets connected to two different breakers. (the same applies for 20A circuits, but the power maximum is 2400W there).

 

[Revvy]

Obligatory Warning: Please consult someone who actually knows about electrics before you do anything.

Well considering I was the guy who came up with the de rigueur stc-1000 wiring diagram on here that helped a lot of people understand how to to it, I got it covered. But I'm not planning to do anything without sitting down with an electrician buddy and have him double check my plan.

I'm still just at the throwing ideas together phase.

 

[dyqik]

Well considering I was the guy who came up with the de rigueur stc-1000 wiring diagram on here that helped a lot of people understand how to to it, I got it covered. But I'm not planning to do anything without sitting down with an electrician buddy and have him double check my plan.

I'm still just at the throwing ideas together phase.

That wasn't aimed at you - but a couple of other posters on this thread are making comments that worry me a bit.

 

[bernardsmith]

Aside from the practical electrical and safety issues here why doesn't an electrical element placed directly IN the wort (or the mash) not burn the wort rather than boil it?

 

[augiedoggy]

Aside from the practical electrical and safety issues here why doesn't an electrical element placed directly IN the wort (or the mash) not burn the wort rather than boil it?

Watt density.

This is why ULWD (ultra low watt density ) Is always better and less likely to burn and scorch.. Think of it like a regular gas burner (ULWD) vs a torch (HWD) concentrating the same amount of gas burning the same btus only in a small concentrated area of the bottom of the kettle... The torch will scorch the wort in contact with that area of the kettle but when that same flame energy is spread out and applied in a gentler fashion over a greater surface area in a regular burner its less likely to burn or scorch... Simply put the larger the amount of element thats in the kettle the gentler and less likely to scorch or burn the element will be.

OF course lwd and even HWD elements are used often successfully but with tradeoffs like constant stirring and slight scorching that may or may not be detected (if you have a burned on film covering you element surface after brewing that required effort to remove you do have scorching to some degree plain and simple) Of course everyone defends thier purchases so its difficult to see this sometimes when reading the threads and some people have systems with pumps constantly moving the liquid over the element surface which effectively work as sort of a liquid cooling system on the element surface which is a good work around until something goes wrong.

If you can I suggest the ripple 4500w or 5500w elements (the all stainless versions for brewing can be bought for under $30 including shipping now so) no real reason to use other things unless you've designed a system that wont allow it for some reason.

This is also the reasoning behind the large amount of heating coil in a blichmann boil coil... Its just a smarter gentler safer was to do it..

 

[nckid4u]

Basically, a 120v 15 amp circuit has the potential for 1800 watts. 120*15. Rule of thumb is to keep it around 80% of max or 1440 watts. That being said, 1500 watts on a 15 amp circuit would be okay. If you had 12 gauge wire, you could run a 20 amp circuit and get up to 2400 watts or 1920 watts using the 80% rule. I would be hesitant to run a 20 amp breaker over 14 gauge wire as the wire can get pretty hot.

 

[DreBourbon]

Agreed. 120V you won't be happy but it won't kill you. 220V is a different story.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Here is an example of a 2 element 30 liter kettle...

https://hrafnkell.wordpress.com/2011/03/27/diy-plastic-boil-kettle/

 

[augiedoggy]

Basically, a 120v 15 amp circuit has the potential for 1800 watts. 120*15. Rule of thumb is to keep it around 80% of max or 1440 watts. That being said, 1500 watts on a 15 amp circuit would be okay. If you had 12 gauge wire, you could run a 20 amp circuit and get up to 2400 watts or 1920 watts using the 80% rule. I would be hesitant to run a 20 amp breaker over 14 gauge wire as the wire can get pretty hot.

Despite this 80% rule being mistakenly applied here this rule is actually for continuous duty applications where that load would be applied at 100% for over 3 hours straight... This 80% wouldn't apply to 99% of home brewing applications unless im missing something here?

a 20a breaker with 14g does not meet code and would be a safety hazard for sure.. I believe we are assuming the wiring and breaker configurations in the house are already up to code here?

 

[BrunDog]

volts and watts are not what you need to be worried about. Its the amp draw that is what will hurt or (highly unlikely with this type of stuff) kill you. Most household electronics just don't have the amp draw to stop your heart. Unless you are brewing in the tub. Only time i get antsy around power is when im working on air conditioning condensers. When running, they draw around 15-20 amps constant, and on start up, pull 20-30 amps, 220v. I have seen big guys get hit by those wires and get knocked back, and knocked out.

This is simply not accurate.

And this brings up another reason to avoid plastic buckets with electric elements. You need to ensure the elements are grounding properly. Stainless kettles that are grounded provide immediate paths to ground and will trip GFIs immediately. Plastic buckets could potentially allow for an energized liquid volume, which could easily kill someone who is a conduit to earth ground if they made appropriate contact. Again, can does not equal should.

 

[augiedoggy]

Agreed. 120V you won't be happy but it won't kill you. 220V is a different story.

be Careful...While I understand the point your trying to make and the application its based on, I made a similar comment which led me down a long drawn out off topic argument that ended up being less about fact and more about how people felt things should be respected and perceived as... Then there was the non practical examples that did not apply to the discussion to be used to prove these different points of view..

EDIT** Too late the ball is rolling..

Amperage is more dangerous than voltage this is true but there are different applications and instances were both 120v or 240v can be more likely to be deadly or not... When we are simply comparing a typical 120v household outlet or appliance to the typical 240v outlet or appliance found in a home the 240v exposure here is GENERALLY likely to be more dangerous can we at least just agree on that so we can move on from this?

 

[augiedoggy]

This is simply not accurate.

And this brings up another reason to avoid plastic buckets with electric elements. You need to ensure the elements are grounding properly. Stainless kettles that are grounded provide immediate paths to ground and will trip GFIs immediately. Plastic buckets could potentially allow for an energized liquid volume, which could easily kill someone who is a conduit to earth ground if they made appropriate contact. Again, can does not equal should.

The liquid itself can be grounded with a ground post no?

 

[Revvy]

Here is an example of a 2 element 30 liter kettle...

https://hrafnkell.wordpress.com/2011/03/27/diy-plastic-boil-kettle/

And even he mentions the armchair ******s who just refuse to get their heads around the fact that just because THEY in their all knowing "wisdom" have never heard of something that LOTS of people around the world are already doing, that maybe they need to STFU about it instead of insisting it won't work.

Reminds me of the very first NO-Chill brewing thread on here, all the "quarterbacks" ignoring the fact that the Aussies have been doing it for 20 or more years and had perfected it long before John Palmer went there, saw what they were doing and wrote about it for BYO... all those folks just so POSITIVE that everyone who was going to do it was going to make Botulism beer. And just refusing to let it go, even when actual Australian brewers were pointing out to them that they'd been doing it forever.

So funny how closed minded some people are...I get excited when I learn how different people and different cultures approach the same issues. Especially when I find out how common that actually may be. Just because I was ignorant of it, doesn't make it wrong, it just means I have more cool crap to learn and to try.

 

[BrunDog]

Yes, I suppose. The elements should cover the ground issue, but these are being repurposed, so there is certainly no guarantee they will do their job and protect you. I certainly hope those choosing to use a plastic bucket with electric elements don't skimp further and skip an upstream GFI. That would be Darwinism in waiting.

 

[augiedoggy]

Yes, I suppose. The elements should cover the ground issue, but these are being repurposed, so there is certainly no guarantee they will do their job and protect you. I certainly hope those choosing to use a plastic bucket with electric elements don't skimp further and skip an upstream GFI. That would be Darwinism in waiting.

I shutter to think or how many electric home brewers "Havent gotten around to" installing gfci protection yet... Sadly I believe theres a lot of them here that just dont think its worth their lives because they believe they can prevent any accident where it would save them...

 

[augiedoggy]

And even he mentions the armchair ******s who just refuse to get their heads around the fact that just because THEY in their all knowing "wisdom" have never heard of something that LOTS of people around the world are already doing, that maybe they need to STFU about it instead of insisting it won't work.

Reminds me of the very first NO-Chill brewing thread on here, all the "quarterbacks" ignoring the fact that the Aussies have been doing it for 20 or more years and had perfected it long before John Palmer went there, saw what they were doing and wrote about it for BYO... all those folks just so POSITIVE that everyone who was going to do it was going to make Botulism beer. And just refusing to let it go, even when actual Australian brewers were pointing out to them that they'd been doing it forever.

So funny how closed minded some people are...I get excited when I learn how different people and different cultures approach the same issues. Especially when I find out how common that actually may be. Just because I was ignorant of it, doesn't make it wrong, it just means I have more cool crap to learn and to try.

Well it is human nature to defend what we've learned and believe and defend our own lines we have drawn in the sand. I wouldnt go as far as you too think the the issue is that simple and all black and white and silly to question myself though.

I'm gona play devils advocate here,
Sometimes there is more factors the the big picture than mentioned or brought into the equation.. Like theres the fact that some will/ have take(n) this idea and use it in poorly executed applications like for example a plastic trash that can be made of an unsafe type of plastic thats dyed with an unsafe coloring and made of a plastic that leaches all kinds of **** into their food when heated up... Just because this sort of thing has been done for years and often in say some 3rd world for example and people dont die from it (at least not right away or directly) doesnt make it ok and perfectly acceptable for others? This reasoning can go off topic real quick since things like lead pipes are still successfully used in some poor areas of the world and asbestos was Fine and worked great for years too? Doesnt mean things should never be questioned though..

In the case of installing a heating element in a bucket made of food grade plastic then yeah from what I know I see no reason myself why it should never be considered and doesnt have a practical place.. Buts that just an opinion from the sum of what I believe I know.

There are many things that we do here and consider totally safe that other countries like the Aussies simple dont allow for what they feel is an unnecessary safety or health concern/risk... They simple drew their line in a different area of the sand on the topic...
I just mentioned this in another thread but I learned once that the cereal made here locally in Buffalo by General mills is not allowed to be sold in canada because according to thier laws you would need a prescription from your doctor up there to get it and eat it due to the differences in what they consider safe and healthy ways or accomplishing things.. We go the cheaper route in blanching all the vitamins and minerals from the cereal while making it and spraying on artificially added stuff after its made.. In fact they used to spray so much iron on the total cereal at one time it would actually attract to a magnet if set in a bowl of milk with the total... In Canada they have to use more expensive and more natural processes to make the cereal which prevents having to do all this.. Are they all fools for having higher standards here than us? Would you rather eat real beef or reconstituted pink mush burgers from Mc donalds? I chose to avoid it all together and go to burgerking but it doesnt really make me an armchair ******. other people concerns over this led to mcdonald rethinking their beef process and improving it despite the law saying they were ok in the states all along..

Someday they will no doubt learn that some of the stuff we do and consider safe now really isnt and that doesnt happen without people challenging and questioning things. just as the use of these buckets with heater were implemented by someone who said why not?

The key is just respecting different views from different people I think.. stepping off soapbox now...

 

[DreBourbon]

Aside from the practical electrical and safety issues here why doesn't an electrical element placed directly IN the wort (or the mash) not burn the wort rather than boil it?

I shutter to think or how many electric home brewers "Havent gotten around to" installing gfci protection yet... Sadly I believe theres a lot of them here that just dont think its worth their lives because they believe they can prevent any accident where it would save them...

Does a gfi power bar do the trick?

 

[augiedoggy]

Does a gfi power bar do the trick?

If you have one thats rated for enough power than yeah. For 240v most people use a 50a spa panel because they are only $60 with the gfci breaker inside... You still need to use the correct size main breaker (example 30a) in the main box feeding the circuit. 20a and 15a 120v gfci outlets are dirt cheap... Ive seen them new for as little as $7...

 

[DreBourbon]

Thanks

 

[alexacuna]

This would be a cool experiment. Any idea where a 33 liter bucket might be purchased in the US?

 

[cod3ck]

I shutter to think or how many electric home brewers "Havent gotten around to" installing gfci protection yet... Sadly I believe theres a lot of them here that just dont think its worth their lives because they believe they can prevent any accident where it would save them...

Great point augiedoggy!

From my experience, before you get into ANYTHING electrical, plan for failure... I'll say it again for everyone --

PLAN FOR FAILURE

For this application --
1) Get the ~cheap GFCI spa panel (usually rated for 50 amps) to cover your life.
2) Connect in-line and downstream to a 30 amp standard breaker (or more if you require it and you KNOW that) to cover your equipment.
3) Make sure everything is well grounded.

If those 3 things are taken into account and you make a mistake (or your gear just gets used and a leak, boil over, etc. unexpectedly happens), you should still be able to learn from it and fix the problem....

If any of this was confusing to you, I highly recommend reading up on http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/. Kal's setup is definitely high end, but the same safety and wiring principles apply regardless of the bling factor on your equipment.

Hope this helps (and I didn't preach too much)!

 

[Revvy]

This would be a cool experiment. Any idea where a 33 liter bucket might be purchased in the US?

The closest we have is the 8 gallon fermenting bucket.

My homebrewshop has them for 20 bucks...I thought I saw on Adventures in homebrewing's site plain ones for 8 bucks apiece.

There's this style from mountain homebrew for 21...

There is also the 10 gallon white rubbermade Brute food grade pails that a lot of homebrewshops sell as wine fermenters, even restaurant supply stores sell them (Momofuku and other restaurants use them to ferment mass quantities of things like Kimchee or hot sauces in them.) I've only seen them in pictures and videos and can't tell if they're rigid like a regular fermenter buckets we use, or "mushy" like the black rubbermade garbage cans.

If they're hard sided I might be leaning towards one of those 10 gallon ones.

 

[estricklin]

And even he mentions the armchair ******s who just refuse to get their heads around the fact that just because THEY in their all knowing "wisdom" have never heard of something that LOTS of people around the world are already doing, that maybe they need to STFU about it instead of insisting it won't work.

Reminds me of the very first NO-Chill brewing thread on here, all the "quarterbacks" ignoring the fact that the Aussies have been doing it for 20 or more years and had perfected it long before John Palmer went there, saw what they were doing and wrote about it for BYO... all those folks just so POSITIVE that everyone who was going to do it was going to make Botulism beer. And just refusing to let it go, even when actual Australian brewers were pointing out to them that they'd been doing it forever.

So funny how closed minded some people are...I get excited when I learn how different people and different cultures approach the same issues. Especially when I find out how common that actually may be. Just because I was ignorant of it, doesn't make it wrong, it just means I have more cool crap to learn and to try.

I agree so much! I guess my excuse is, I'm just stubborn and won't believe everything I read or hear, I have to find out for myself haha. I hope this thread continues on, and that many can learn how to build a good working, cheap and safe plastic brewing system.

I had a friend, whom I'd known since we were about 4 years old, die from a 120 volt electric shock when she was only 16. I take safety serious as I'm sure most others on here do too. BUT, it's up to each individual to ensure their system is safe. It's certainly not something to fight about.

I'm anxious to see how some of you end up controlling your systems. I personally would probably start with an external relay on the STC-1000, or build an adjustable PWM circuit that I could drive an SSR with. If your using a single 120 volt heating element, chances are you don't even need any control though. If my math is right, (and it often isn't), a 1500 watt element is going to be pushing the lower end of "will or won't". They do sell 20 amp 120v outlets though, about $4 I think, of coarse if your wiring is adequate you could go that route.

Look forward to reading more!

 

[Terek]

This is simply not accurate.

then explain. Explain how a 8,000v electric fence gives me a good shock, and nothing else, but a 220v ac can stop my heart? Answer, the fence is .05 amps, the ac is 20 amps

 

[BrunDog]

Ohms law.

 

[wilserbrewer]

2 of these would likely boil 6 gallons...lol. Can't get any cheaper lol. On 2 separate GFI circuits for safety sake...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Travel-Coff...936577?hash=item2c9ac18c01:g:sg4AAOSwgQ9Vku5I

Very ghetto, but I would prefer brewing in my basement with these over brewing outside in foul winter weather with propane....jmo.

 

[augiedoggy]

2 of these would likely boil 6 gallons...lol. Can't get any cheaper lol. On 2 separate GFI circuits for safety sake...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Travel-Coff...936577?hash=item2c9ac18c01:g:sg4AAOSwgQ9Vku5I

Very ghetto, but I would prefer brewing in my basement with these over brewing outside in foul winter weather with propane....jmo.

The only thing that would concern me with these is if its just the tip that heats up thats going to be a very very high watt density surface (about twice that of the short HWD 120v 1500w water heater elements).. I have seen a thread somewhere here where a person used a short non foldover 120v 1500w element like this length in a rims and the result looked like something that was sitting in the bottom of my gas grill after a year... And that was with good flow across it.. with the tight space between the coils it sure to scorch unless the coils are stretched out ... Id use them for the HLT though. Just not for wort like I believe you suggested in the other thread.

Has anyone used one of these successfully that you know?