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Piraat "Belgium Tripel IPA" Clone Help...Arrgh!

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Revvy

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Yesterday I tried Piraat Tripel IPA (My tasting notes are here; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=773483&postcount=11)

I'd really like to do a clone of this....using teh googelz netted me several contradictory recipes for it, including a couple from here...

I'm wondering has anyone actually brewed a clone of it?
Has anyone brewed any of these recipes?

Here's the ones I've found...Starting with the 2 from here.

17 Lb's Belgian Pilsner malt, 1/2 lb. crystal 20 L., 4 oz. Cara-Vienna, 4 oz. Aromatic. 1 Lb. Belgian light candi sugar, 1 oz. Brewers Gold @ 5 AAU (60 min), 1 oz. Styrian Golding with 1/2 tsp.Crushed Coriander(15 min.) 1/2 oz. Styrian Golding with 1/2 tsp.Crushed Coriander @ 1 tsp Sweet orange peel (10 min), White Labs WLP500 Trappist Yeast, Prime with 1-1/4 Cup wheat DME.

Best mashed @ 152 Degrees for appoxx. 90 min. Depending on your efficiency you should have a 10/10-1/2 Alcolhol."
11 lbs. Plain Extra-Light DME
1½ lbs. Belgian Clear Candi Sugar
8 oz. Crystal Malt 20°L
4 oz. Belgian Cara-Vienne Malt
4 oz. Belgian Aromatic Malt
1 oz. Brewers Gold 60 minutes
1 oz. Styrian Goldings 15 minutes
½ oz. Styrian Goldings 5 minutes
½ tsp. ground coriander 15 minutes
½ tsp. ground coriander 5 minutes
1 tsp. Sweet orange peel 5 minutes
1 tsp. Irish moss 15 minutes
1 pkg. Wyeast 3787 Trappist high gravity yeast

Steep specialty grains for 30 minutes @ 150°F.
Keep fermentation around 68-70°F.
Prime with 1½ cup wheat DME.
The finished volume is: 6 gallons
Technical file for Piraat 9%:
9 % alcohol by volume, 18.5° Plato
Amber colored beer with secondary fermentation in the bottle or in the keg.
Shelf life: at least 2 years after bottling date.

OG: 1.096
FG: 1.024
SRM: ~11
IBU: 9
ABV: 9.3%
And 2 from beertools forum...

5 lbs. German 2-row Pils
5 lbs. German Vienna info
.5 lbs. Weyermann CaraHell® i
.25 lbs. Belgian Aromatic
.25 lbs. Acidulated Malt
2 lbs. Corn Flaked
.25 lbs. Light Brown Sugar info
1 oz. Santiam (Pellets, 5.8 %AA) boiled 60 min. info
1 oz. Spalt Spalter (Pellets, 4.7 %AA) boiled 1 min. info
1/4 teaspoons Powdered irish Moss (not included in calculations)
Yeast : WYeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity

Single infusion mash at 145-149 until converted. COncoction to raise to 167 mash out. Mash out at 169 F through direct heat.
90 minute boil.
Dark brown sugar is Panela Piloncillo added at 60 minutes with hops.
1 g. powdered grains of paradise .
12 g. crushed Morrocan coriander at knock-out.
35 g. Vallencia Orange zest at knock out (~4 oranges).
7 g. powdered chamomile flowers.
2 quarts of water added at end of boil to bring volume up to 5.25 gal. 1 qt yeast starter added to bring up to 5.5 gal.
14 lbs. Belgian Pils
.25 lbs. Acidulated Malt
1 lbs. Midwest Wheat Malt
1.5 lbs. Honey info
.75 lbs. Corn Flaked info
.5 oz. Cascade (Whole, 5.50 %AA) boiled 0 min.
2 oz. Liberty (Whole, 4.1 %AA) boiled 90 min.
1 oz. Cascade (Whole, 5.50 %AA) boiled 15 min.
1/2 ounces Corriander, ground (not included in calculations)
1 ounces Sweet Orange zest, fresh (not included in calculations)
Yeast : WYeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity

Spring water.
MASH: Dough-in with 1 gal. of water at room temp. Add 4 gal. @ 142 to raise and rest @ 122-127 for 15 min. Decoct 50% (~8 qt. wet grains + liquid to fill spaces) of mash to raise temp to 150-152 for 45 mins. Decoct 40% (~6 qt. wet grains + liquid to fill spaces) to raise temp to 168 for 10 minutes. Sparge with 5 gal. water at 168.
DECOCTIONS: Raise decoction to 160-162F for 20 minute rest. Then bring to boil for 10 minutes
BOIL: Boil for 90 mins. Add Orange Blossom honey at knock-out. Force cool with heat exchange/tap water.
Aerate for 60 minutes. Pitch yeast (2 punch-packs)@ 70 F.
Bottle prime with 4 oz. of dextrose boiled in 8 oz. water. Innoculate with 1 packet of Lalvin ec 1118 Champagne yeast to activate yeast.

1 tsp. powdered Irish Moss (2 g.) , 1 tsp yeast nutrients (3 g.), corriander for 15 minutes and orange peel for last 5 minutes of boil.
Ferment at 75F
Secondary at 65F for 7 days
Cold condition at 45 degrees for 2 weeks.
The first and last ones seem the most promising...at least they hit the ABV dead on...

I can't figure out where the distinctive apple-ness might come from..Is it from the WYeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity which 3 of them use?

Suggestions, Ideas, practical experience anyone?
 

ericd

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I think this may be one of those instances where using your intuition and "following your heart" may be the way to go.
 
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Revvy

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I'm bumping this up since I posted it this weekend and didn't really get any help...Anyone? I'd like to maybe brew it this weekend....

Thanks!
 

ohiobrewtus

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My guess is that the apple notes that you are referring to are going to come from the yeast and careful control of fermentation temperatures.

Glancing quickly at the recipes I would tend to start with the first one, but Belgian or not, that seems a bit low on hops to be referred to as an IPA.
 
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My guess is that the apple notes that you are referring to are going to come from the yeast and careful control of fermentation temperatures.

Glancing quickly at the recipes I would tend to start with the first one, but Belgian or not, that seems a bit low on hops to be referred to as an IPA.
That's the odd thing about Piraat and all of the Van Steenberge beers is their lack of hoppiness....They claim it's an IPA by history since it was brewed for sea voyages....

I can't find the IBU's anywhere, to see if any recipes are close...what would you suggest?

BJCP categorizes piraat as a Belgian Strong, and the IBU range is 22 – 35 so I guess if I were tweaking I'd aim for the higher end of the spectrum....

Edit Deep in google I found it listed on an old Seattle Beerfest listing as having 31 IBU's
 

niquejim

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I have not had that beer so I can't really help, but I know someone who makes a Chouffe Houblin clone and says he's getting close. I don't know how close those 2 are but I can e-mail him for his recipe if you like
 
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I have not had that beer so I can't really help, but I know someone who makes a Chouffe Houblin clone and says he's getting close. I don't know how close those 2 are but I can e-mail him for his recipe if you like

Yes please...anything that could get me in kinda a rough idea...

I found on another forum someone claiming he nailed it, but the guy never returned to that forum...evey year someone bumps the thread hoping he's back there....
 

DeathBrewer

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Piraat is a triple. I think they use a SLIGHTLY larger amount of hops, but they age it before distribution so it doesn't come through in the final product.

this is one of my favorite beers. definitely go with the styrian goldings, it'll give the beer just the right flavor/aroma hops.

i'd go with the first recipe and be ready to age it for about a year.
:mug:
 
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Piraat is a triple. I think they use a SLIGHTLY larger amount of hops, but they age it before distribution so it doesn't come through in the final product.

this is one of my favorite beers. definitely go with the styrian goldings, it'll give the beer just the right flavor/aroma hops.

i'd go with the first recipe and be ready to age it for about a year.
:mug:
I was leaning towards the first one as well....And I am planning to stick this away for a long time...I was thinking about this today...is it better to bulk condition this for a long time, or bottle condition it for a year?

Thanks!
 

Danek

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I was thinking about this today...is it better to bulk condition this for a long time, or bottle condition it for a year?
I've been thinking about the same thing, for the Belgian Strong Dark I'm making next. From posts elsewhere on here, I got the impression that bulk aging is better, following the reasoning that a large mass of beer is more likely to age consistently than 40 smaller quantities of the same beer. I was planning to leave my beer in primary for a month, then rack it to secondary and leave in a dark cupboard for six months (or longer if I can control myself). I guess it'd still need a couple of months in bottles after that too.

It'd be interesting to know what you opt for. Good luck with it! :mug:
 

DeathBrewer

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i have a little experience with this now and i would say: ALL THE ABOVE!

let it sit in the primary for a couple of months, rousing it for the first couple of weeks to keep the yeast going. if you're using malt extract and sugar, you could add that later in the fermentation...stepping it up every few days or every week or so.

let it ferment low, 65°F or so, then let it raise slowly near the end of fermentation. i would never let it get above the low 70s.

let it sit in the primary and bulk condition for a couple of months, then leave it in bottles for at least six months.

the last few i've made have come out wonderfully. belgian pales and dubbels and a few strong ales. i have a dark strong ale currently in secondary and it tastes so clean it will KICK YOUR ASS. it's boozy, but so clean...no hot alcohols, nice light esters and very tasty. i almost want to keg it, if i didn't think i would kill myself :D

:mug:
 
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i have a little experience with this now and i would say: ALL THE ABOVE!

let it sit in the primary for a couple of months, rousing it for the first couple of weeks to keep the yeast going. if you're using malt extract and sugar, you could add that later in the fermentation...stepping it up every few days or every week or so.

let it ferment low, 65°F or so, then let it raise slowly near the end of fermentation. i would never let it get above the low 70s.

let it sit in the primary and bulk condition for a couple of months, then leave it in bottles for at least six months.

the last few i've made have come out wonderfully. belgian pales and dubbels and a few strong ales. i have a dark strong ale currently in secondary and it tastes so clean it will KICK YOUR ASS. it's boozy, but so clean...no hot alcohols, nice light esters and very tasty. i almost want to keg it, if i didn't think i would kill myself :D

:mug:
I'm glad you came on to help!!!!

Having only gone through half of the Global Beer Network Belgian Six pack I have a big fear that I'm going to want to Brew the next one in the pack as well...it's A dark Strong....Gulden Draak....

(I may need your strong dark recipe!)

:mug:
 
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Oh good, I'd like to keep this thread alive to and see if any fresh eyes pop in...this is on top of my to brew list right after I do the pumpkin partigyle next week....

I "Think" it's number one...I'm not positive, but that's the one I'm going to brew. Even if it's not close to Piraat, it still sounds good...

3 looks good too, the thing that threw me is the honey and the acciduated malt...I wish I could find some confirmation on whether or not Piraat uses honey as opposed to candi sugar...

I think I've gotten to be a good "beer detective" lately, being able to piece recipes together from the scant info on the web, like IBU, ABV,OG, and SRM's...but except for the ABV, I can't find that info for piraat anywhere.
 

beerthirty

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From what I have learned candi sugar has little difference to table sugar and most brewers use table sugar if the recipe calls for candi. Honey would probably help add to the complexity, especially if used as a late addition. I plan on using honey instead of sugar in the 9-9-09 barleywine hoping for the extra bit of complexity. Unfortunately my palette is not all that refined yet and I'm not sure if I will even notice it.

Edit: That first one doesn't have a lot of info. It looks like a 6 gall? batch? Since secondary fermentation is used, I assume that is what the DME is for, but wonder if this is for carbonation also or just to raise the ABV. Should the kegs be shaken a couple times during secondary fermentation to rouse the yeast.
 

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make some pure invert sugar. it really adds nice clean booze. belgian dark strong ale is almost ready to bottle. my next belgian will probably be something akin to piraat so maybe i'll try a clone. piraat is definitely one of my favorite beers.
:mug:
 

DeathBrewer

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invert sugar will ferment out cleanly 100%. other sugars could possibly leave a slight flavor. sometimes you may even want this.

it's not a huge difference and i wouldn't be overly concerned with it. it's just that i'm amazed out how clean the dark strong came out.
 

DeathBrewer

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sure! i'd add some by stepping up fermentation after it's been in the primary for about a week. just pasteurize it in a small amount of water and dump it in.

make sure to let it ferment out completely. total time in the primary would probably be about 2 months. and don't be afraid to rouse that yeast up and keep your fermentation going!
 

beerthirty

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I thought I found another recipe but it ends up being the same as the first one posted. I did get the Gulden Draak recipe also. After playing with it in beersmith my problem is trying to figure out how much 1-1/4 cup of wheat DME weighs since beersmith wont accept the volume measure for DME priming. Anyone know that conversion?
 

DeathBrewer

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i personally don't use DME for priming anymore...had a few bad experiences with high unfermentables. corn sugar works just fine.

no way to know what 1¼ cup is, go by weight. if you're talking about the beer captured gulden draak clone, i made that once. it's been sitting under the steps in the basement for almost a year. can't wait to see how it turns out!
 

beerthirty

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I think they specified the wheat DME for the wheat flavor and coudiness, but I respect your experienced veiw. The GD recipe I found was in Clone Brews. ABV is too low though. After tweaking it I hope it doesn't turn out to be clown brew. I figured at least a one year age, maybe 16 months.
 

beerthirty

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Tomorrow I brew this. I switched up the hops though. Green Bullet instead of Brewers Gold and Williamette to replace the Styrian Goldings. This recipe is over extending my tun capacity for mash out by 1/2 gallon but since I'm fly sparging I'm not to worried.
Revvy I hope you are up for a beer trade next year when this batch has finished aging. I'm hoping to send a few out with the 9-9-09 barleywine trade also. Its is sure to be a good beer.
 
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Tomorrow I brew this. I switched up the hops though. Green Bullet instead of Brewers Gold and Williamette to replace the Styrian Goldings. This recipe is over extending my tun capacity for mash out by 1/2 gallon but since I'm fly sparging I'm not to worried.
Revvy I hope you are up for a beer trade next year when this batch has finished aging. I'm hoping to send a few out with the 9-9-09 barleywine trade also. Its is sure to be a good beer.

Awesome you are going to do it...I gotta get off my but and get brewing!!!!!
 

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Subscribed. Interested in this beer. Seems to be the Holy Grail of all Tripels. :)
 

beerthirty

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I posted the brew to the brewlog. It was my best brew so far even with a few mistakes. My spice rack was empty of corriander :(, so I used a little clove and bit of red pepper. I couldn't taste the pepper but I think it gave the clove a bit of kick. It was a beautiful clear yellow-gold color and I could taste the malt, hops, and clove slightly. It simmering away under a blow off tube now. I used WL 550 for the spiciness. 500 seems to have a plum characteristic. I think this is going to be a good beer next year, I wish the wait were not so long.
 

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So I just got the ingredients to make the first recipe for the piraat clone on Friday. My question is what to do with all the extra specialty grains. My HBS sells by the pound so I'll have close to 2 pounds left of specialty grains. Any suggestions? I

Im also going to have about an oz of left over hops and was thinking about using that to dry hop when I start my secondary fermentation. Any reason why I wouldn't do that? I had to substitute Fuggles for the Brewers Gold, and will also have a 1/4 or 1/2 ounce of Styrian left over as well.

Thanks!
 

beerthirty

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Its your beer you may make it how you want. I wanted to stay close to style because its just about as perfect as a beer can be. Unfortunately I had to make modifications due to hops availability(green bullet and willamette). Since it is classed as an IPA, dryhopping shouldn't hurt it. As for the grains, brew again next weekend and use what you can.
 

beerthirty

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I got a surprise today when I transferred to the secondary. I made a 10 gallon batch and split it between 2 buckets. As I transfered to a 10G cornie I took gravities. Both fermentations stalled. One at 1.038 and the other at 1.030. My target was 1.020. Well after filling the cornie I added a little of the yeast from the bucket and placed a fermentation lid (airlock where the relief goes) on it. I think a week or so at room temp should finish it. The one that was more done tasted pretty good the other just so so. I think it got a little cool (62*)and fermentation stalled. I will update again in a few weeks.
 

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If you bring the temps up to the mid to high 70s, even as high as the mid-80s - that will probably get the fermentation going nicely without producing much in the way of fusels and off-tastes. Also feel free to throw in a pinch of yeast nutrient.
 

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how is fermenting in the 80s not going to produce fusels?

next time take the gravities before you transfer. those beers were probably not finished and you're going to have a helluva time getting to your final gravity now that you've racked it off the yeast.

no belgian beer that strong should spend less than one month in the primary anyway IMO.

then again, depending on the DME and your OG, it may be finished. what was your OG?
 

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how is fermenting in the 80s not going to produce fusels?

you're going to have a helluva time getting to your final gravity now that you've racked it off the yeast.
I said "much in the way of fusels" - I didn't say no fusels will be generated. At this stage - with a low sg - only minor amounts of fusels will be generated while the yeast dries the beer out.

BTW He also reintroduced yeast from the primary - so it shouldn't be too tricky getting the yeast to cooperate - but it will take some days to see activity though.
 

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Temps have dropped recently in AZ. My house temp is running about 73* now.
DB This is my first Belgian, I left it in the primary for 3 weeks. My OG was 1.090. I took FG during the transfer, so I lowered my racking cane and sucked up some yeast also when I found saw hi gravity. Thankfully this yeast doesn't have very high flocculation. So far it seems to have worked, it's still fermenting. The majority of fermentation was done at low temp so I'm hoping very little in fusels. Early low temps from what I have read reduce fusel production. I used no DME, just a large grain bill. I normally brew with American or British yeast and their profiles are quite a bit different from the Belgians. I still think this will turn into a very decent brew just not quite spot on to Piraat.
 
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