pigtailing 12 gauge solid wire.... ARGGGGGGGGGGGH

[Bernie Brewer]

Looks like you too, have a reading problem.
I never said nor implied it was ok to be used by an electrician. Nobody here asked at any time if it was ok to start splicing wires that way at work. Of course you have to follow the code: that's what you're paid for. But that doesn't mean it's not a viable option, in the cases (or places-remember this forum is not only read in the US) in which you don't have to follow the code.

As per this method being a "fire waiting to happen", I don't think you're qualified to make that statement. Are you a physicist? Are you even an electronics, or electrical engineer? Being an electrician by no means makes you a fire hazard expert.
That said, and as I said before, there's plenty of proof, all around the World, that this method is way safer than the use of wire nuts. Maybe you can come up with an explanation as to why most other countries don't seem to have any fire problems derived from its use, yet here it's so dangerous. Maybe you Americans have a different kind of fire...

Your post is peppered with all kinds of incorrect statements. First, since when is it OK for ANYONE to not follow the National Electric Code? That code is not limited to electricians; it is for ALL electrical applications. If a homeowner does his/her own work, it must still follow the code; if it doesn't, it is illegal. Period.

Second, while I may not be a physicist, or an engineer, my experience as an electrician does indeed give me the ability to spot an electrical fire hazard. and just twisting a couple wires together and putting some electrical tape on it IS a fire hazard. That tape is NOT rubber tape, and it is NOT fiber tape.Tthe adhesive WILL break down, especially in hotter ambient temps. I don't know what country you came from, but there is no way I would let you do ANY electrical work in my home or anywhere else. I am done here. There is no changing your mind, but the part that scares me is that you have other people on this forum believing your incredibly bad advice.

 

[Inodoro_Pereyra]

Your post is peppered with all kinds of incorrect statements. First, since when is it OK for ANYONE to not follow the National Electric Code?

Hmmm...gee...I don't know...Maybe since not everybody here lives in the US? Or maybe since some people are more interested in having a safe install than in pleasing their local inspectors?

That code is not limited to electricians; it is for ALL electrical applications. If a homeowner does his/her own work, it must still follow the code; if it doesn't, it is illegal. Period.

BS. ANY electrical work is, by law, limited to electricians in the US. Doing any electrical work is illegal, in the US, for any non licensed person. You can even BE an electrician, but if you're not licensed, you can't work.
So the code IS limited to electricians.

Second, while I may not be a physicist, or an engineer, my experience as an electrician does indeed give me the ability to spot an electrical fire hazard. and just twisting a couple wires together and putting some electrical tape on it IS a fire hazard.

Your' "experience as an electrician" is obviously limited to the US, so, how can you possibly have a clue as to how safe or unsafe a method not used here can be? My experience as an electrician, and as an electronics technician specialized on industrial electronics, comes from a country where, as I said, tape is used everywhere, and, later, as a helper (because I wouldn't dream of wasting my time getting licensed here), in the US. So even from the very limited view of "personal experience" you're still not qualified to argue with me about something you know nothing about.

That tape is NOT rubber tape, and it is NOT fiber tape.Tthe adhesive WILL break down, especially in hotter ambient temps. I don't know what country you came from,

That tape is made of EXACTLY the same material (polyvinyl chloride) wire nuts are made of, and, over time (decades) it will dry out and become rigid and brittle just as wire nuts (and wire insulation itself, for what matters) will. The big difference is that, while wire nuts only offer one coat of insulating material, any qualified electrician will lay at least 3 coats of tape, which means the internal coats will stay in good shape, just because their moisture has nowhere to go.
Last, I come from Buenos Aires, Argentina.

As for the rest of your rant, as I said before, I don't waste my time answering to ad hominem attacks. Your opinion of me and my advise (and the way you seem to think you're entitled to expose it, without knowing what or who you're talking about) only talks about yourself.

 

[lebshiff21]

BS. ANY electrical work is, by law, limited to electricians in the US. Doing any electrical work is illegal, in the US, for any non licensed person. You can even BE an electrician, but if you're not licensed, you can't work.
So the code IS limited to electricians.

WTF are you talking about here? I'm breaking a law if I replace a switch in my house? Are you kidding me? Show me the law please.

 

[lschiavo]

WTF are you talking about here? I'm breaking a law if I replace a switch in my house? Are you kidding me? Show me the law please.

This is true. As a homeowner, you can pull a permit and wire your entire house yourself at least here in Michigan.

 

[stlbeer]

Take this to the Debate Forum. The rest of us couldn't care less.

 

[Inodoro_Pereyra]

WTF are you talking about here? I'm breaking a law if I replace a switch in my house? Are you kidding me? Show me the law please.

Well, I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know where to find the actual law, but I can show you these:

http://www.uklocalplumber.co.uk/plumbing-contractor/what-penalties-for-doing-electricalplumbing-work-without-license-or-permit

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071225052300AAhvMbG

https://www.bconline.gov.bc.ca/news/BCSA_Heads_Up.html

For what I read, you're not required to have a license to replace a light switch. You do, however, need a license to wire a light switch.
Anyways, the law seems to vary by state, so you should check your local laws. In Florida, for example, doing electrical work without a license is a felony (as it's been widely publicized after Wilma hit), while in other states it seems to be a misdemeanor.

 

[RDWHAHB]

BS. ANY electrical work is, by law, limited to electricians in the US. Doing any electrical work is illegal, in the US, for any non licensed person. You can even BE an electrician, but if you're not licensed, you can't work.
So the code IS limited to electricians.

Just not true.
A) NEC adoption is by local laws. I grew up near a place that had no building codes.
B) Previously mentioned homeonwer rules. NEC would still apply to those.
C) Industrial enclosures for one. The NEC does not have scope here. Often UL508A does. The UL guidleines are probably much more reasonable guidlines for within control panels than NEC.

 

[Inodoro_Pereyra]

This is true. As a homeowner, you can pull a permit and wire your entire house yourself at least here in Michigan.

Could be. Seems to differ from state to state.
Either way, it's one of those stupid, unenforceable laws. Makes sense to forbid an unlicensed contractor to do dangerous work, to protect the customer, but to forbid a homeowner from working on his own home... I'd like to see a judge trying to enforce that one.

 

[Inodoro_Pereyra]

Just not true.
A) NEC adoption is by local laws. I grew up near a place that had no building codes.
B) Previously mentioned homeonwer rules. NEC would still apply to those.
C) Industrial enclosures for one. The NEC does not have scope here. Often UL508A does. The UL guidleines are probably much more reasonable guidlines for within control panels than NEC.

A) which means, if that place has no building codes, NEC doesn't apply. Therefore, it's NOT ILLEGAL to insulate wiring with electrical tape.

C) Are you implying that an unlicensed worker can legally work in an industrial enclosure? Now I'm the one who'd like to see that law.

 

[Bernie Brewer]

That is exactly what I meant. A homeowner can indeed do his own work on his own home. but that work is STILL subject to the NEC. Whether you think it is enforceable or not, it is still subject to the NEC. And if the house burns down, even if it is 30 years later, the person that did the shoddy work that caused it is liable for the damages, including deaths. Even if that person was the homeowner.

As far as pleasing their local inspectors vs a safe install, well you have that mixed up. You are going under the assumption that your method is safe and the NEC and local inspectors are not. Well, you are wrong. I don't care what you did in whatever country you came from. The practices that you outlined in this thread are unsafe. Period. And you are convincing guys on here otherwise and it is really pi$$ing me off, because someone is gonna get killed one of these days by listening to bad advice, whether it is given by you or someone else. But I have had it. I am done with this thread (really this time.....) Because you are just making my blood pressure go up.

 

[socalboomer]

Well, I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know where to find the actual law, but I can show you these:

http://www.uklocalplumber.co.uk/plumbing-contractor/what-penalties-for-doing-electricalplumbing-work-without-license-or-permit

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071225052300AAhvMbG

https://www.bconline.gov.bc.ca/news/BCSA_Heads_Up.html

For what I read, you're not required to have a license to replace a light switch. You do, however, need a license to wire a light switch.
Anyways, the law seems to vary by state, so you should check your local laws. In Florida, for example, doing electrical work without a license is a felony (as it's been widely publicized after Wilma hit), while in other states it seems to be a misdemeanor.

so the first "reference" is a question/answer site located in Britain (not the US) and has no references attached to it - it's opinion only - and that opinion is only referring to three states in New England. No credence.

Second is also question/answer from yahoo.com - there is again little to no actual information on there. ANYONE can give answers - there is no credence on that site.

The third IS a government site, but is British Columbia (Canada) - their laws do not apply to us in the US - but notice that it applies NOT to homeowners doing work on their own, but to "regulated work" - you need to realize that this applies to work regulated by the BC government, again, NOT homeowners doing their own work. Heck they even have a chart lower down that tells you if the work you're doing requires a permit (i.e. is regulated) or not. . .

Honestly, it looks like you just popped three websites on there to add to your credibility - none of them prove your point. . .

 

[Inodoro_Pereyra]

I am done with this thread (really this time.....) Because you are just making my blood pressure go up.

Isn't that what you said before?

Honestly, it looks like you just popped three websites on there to add to your credibility - none of them prove your point. . .

I did google it, and, as I clearly said, I was well aware that wasn't the law. As per the first 2 links being "opinions", yes, they are. I didn't see anything other than "opinions" trying to disprove "my point".

About "my point", it has never been about he legality of homeowners doing their own electrical work, nor about the legality of electrical tape being used for insulation. I couldn't care less about the legality of either one.
My point has been about the possibility, and the safety of using that method. and, as of now, I haven't seen a single shred of evidence disproving it.

I have been told by a master electrician, in 2001, when I was working for an electrical contractor, that unlicensed people could not do their own work in the US. Later on, in 2005, after Wilma hit Florida, the Florida government did a TV campaign, telling everybody that doing construction work without a license was a felony, and asking people to report those who did. I made the mistake of believing the electrician knew what he was talking about, and of believing that what was law in Florida was law in the US. That still doesn't make a difference when it comes to the viability or safety of the method I proposed. I said it before: look at the OP's question. This thread is not about the legality of any given method, nor about anybody losing their job if they use one method or another. It's about finding a safe way to insulate a wire. That I provided, and, as of now, I'm still waiting for somebody to prove me wrong.

 

[windbreaker123]

blah,blah,blah

 

[doctorsbro]

Could be. Seems to differ from state to state.
Either way, it's one of those stupid, unenforceable laws. Makes sense to forbid an unlicensed contractor to do dangerous work, to protect the customer, but to forbid a homeowner from working on his own home... I'd like to see a judge trying to enforce that one.

Didnt you just state that the law in the entire u.s. is electrical work can only be performed by a liscenced electrician and no homeowner can do his own wiring??

 

[doctorsbro]

Indo, i havent seen you produce and logical and truthfull information as of yet, please post an actual link to a page that will support your argument, dont just pull stuff out of the air....

 

[Yooper]

Seriously. Knock it off.

Talk about what you know, and stop with the personal attacks and the arguing. Or go find a new playroom to fight in, on a different forum.

 

[motobrewer]

i would just like to add, for clarification, that UL is NOT a standards organization.

 

[Inodoro_Pereyra]

Didnt you just state that the law in the entire u.s. is electrical work can only be performed by a liscenced electrician and no homeowner can do his own wiring??

I did. And then, when, after reading a few pages about it, I realized my mistake, I explained myself here:

I have been told by a master electrician, in 2001, when I was working for an electrical contractor, that unlicensed people could not do their own work in the US. Later on, in 2005, after Wilma hit Florida, the Florida government did a TV campaign, telling everybody that doing construction work without a license was a felony, and asking people to report those who did. I made the mistake of believing the electrician knew what he was talking about, and of believing that what was law in Florida was law in the US.

I honestly thought that was enough explanation on my part. I was led to believe there was a federal law forbidding unlicensed people from working in electricity. I was mistaken.

 

[Inodoro_Pereyra]

Indo, i havent seen you produce and logical and truthfull information as of yet, please post an actual link to a page that will support your argument, dont just pull stuff out of the air....

What are you talking about? My argument that using electrical tape for insulation is perfectly safe has already been backed up, with a link to 3M, of all people.
My argument about homeowners not being able to do electrical work has been also cleared already. I was wrong. I stand corrected.

But most importantly: on what are you basing your accusation of me not being truthful?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Maybe it takes two mods to say it...stop the petty arguing!

 

[Sparky]

Sam, I don't care what Inodoro says. If I made a splice like that for 120v applications, I would get fired, as would any other electrician. It is a fire waiting to happen. Use a wire nut. Or Polaris lugs.

Agree. If I showed that splice (and tape) to an inspector, they would give me the "stink eye" and walk out the door. Hell, all my crews know that is a sketchy short-cut. Wire nut it, with an accessible junction box.

Now, with that being said, let me drag up an old Westinghouse wiring method, that was used on knob & tube. Looks very similar.....

 

[P-J]

...
Now, with that being said, let me drag up an old Westinghouse wiring method, that was used on knob & tube. Looks very similar.....

Yup. It's called a Western Union splice and was (is) used for inline connections of overhead wires.