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pigtailing 12 gauge solid wire.... ARGGGGGGGGGGGH

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If I made a splice in a box with electrical tape I would get fired. Use wire nuts. If you use the right kind (ideal) and size they will last forever and never let go. The method of soldering and taping hasn't been used in eons, and the I have never even seen where you can get the cloth tape used for that anyway. Regular vinyl tape is indeed rated for 600 volts, but it will not last. Period. If you don't want to use wire nuts, get some Polaris lugs, but don't complain when you see the price.
 
LMAO! I didn't mean to piss you off, buddy... I merely relayed my local industrial experience. Sure - solder and tape is great... whatever... :rolleyes:

:D:D You didn't ppiss me off.:D:D
I know the code here. I'm not arguing that. I know you need to use wire nuts on anything that needs to pass inspection. Like I said, I used to work in electricity, and the company I worked for did only hotels and apartment buildings, so we went through boxes of them like they were free.
Sorry if I came up like I was pissed. I'm Latin, so I'm passionate about pretty much everything, but it takes a lot to piss me off.:mug:

Um, I said junction boxes, not breaker panels. Of course there's no wire nuts in breaker panels.

This seems to be a touchy subject to you. Did wire nuts kill your parents or something? Just kidding!

Hmmm...sorry about the confusion. Like I said, I'm Latin, English can be a challenge for me.
This is not a particularly touchy subject for me (other than what I said above about being passionate). I just think wire nuts are substandard, and, more importantly, unsafe. They're just a lousy way to join wires.

Sure, they're code compliant, they're fast to use, and they're cheap. My focus is exclusively on safety. Bottom line: if you get shocked handling a wire, no code is gonna save you.
 
:D:D You didn't ppiss me off.:D:D
I know the code here. I'm not arguing that. I know you need to use wire nuts on anything that needs to pass inspection. Like I said, I used to work in electricity, and the company I worked for did only hotels and apartment buildings, so we went through boxes of them like they were free.
Sorry if I came up like I was pissed. I'm Latin, so I'm passionate about pretty much everything, but it takes a lot to piss me off.:mug:



Hmmm...sorry about the confusion. Like I said, I'm Latin, English can be a challenge for me.
This is not a particularly touchy subject for me (other than what I said above about being passionate). I just think wire nuts are substandard, and, more importantly, unsafe. They're just a lousy way to join wires.

Sure, they're code compliant, they're fast to use, and they're cheap. My focus is exclusively on safety. Bottom line: if you get shocked handling a wire, no code is gonna save you.

I understand what you mean: I'm passionate about a lot, especially homebrewing and electrical stuff.

Personally, for homebrewing applications, I've use solder/tape, wire nuts, butt connectors, and crimp-on quick disconnects. I used all the above on my brewstand alone.

I agree that safety is more important than anything. That's why there should be no handling of energized wires, and all potentially hot metal (enclosures, j-boxes, brewstand, etc) should be properly grounded.
 
I agree that safety is more important than anything. That's why there should be no handling of energized wires, and all potentially hot metal (enclosures, j-boxes, brewstand, etc) should be properly grounded.

Absolutely. But sometimes you don't have a choice.
In my country, electricity is 220V, and 380V for 3 phase (3x220 in star, 3x380 in triangle), and, for one reason or another, you always end up having to handle hot wires, or other fixtures. What I love about taped splices is that you can easily see if it's done properly, and act accordingly. I can't tell you how many times I went to work on a wire that's been spliced with a wire nut, only to have the wire nut fall to the floor right in front of me, just because of the movement on the wire. I'm more afraid of handling 120V here, than I ever was of handling 380V in my country. And for a guy that still has a mark from a 18KV shock, that's a lot to say...

Speaking of Latin, I think this is a funny Latin joke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIAdHEwiAy8

:D:D You gotta love youtube...:D:D
 
I like this. I didnt realize their were so many electricians that brew. Awesome. Now for my two cents. If they are solid. Properly instal the wire nut. U dont have to twist any wire together if u dont want to but i would suggest. Voltage isnt really the issue. 600 volts is decent. Its current that kills u. Amps is what melts electrical tape. Not voltage. Thats y even tho in whatever country anybodies in that same number 12 wire can handle our 120 volts or 277,480,208,220. But u put 100 amps threw a 12 wire u better stand back. All options stated will work for u. Have fun.

And hot work is fun but not liked(at least by the ibew)
 
Voltage isnt really the issue. 600 volts is decent. Its current that kills u. Amps is what melts electrical tape. Not voltage. Thats y even tho in whatever country anybodies in that same number 12 wire can handle our 120 volts or 277,480,208,220. But u put 100 amps threw a 12 wire u better stand back. All options stated will work for u. Have fun.

And hot work is fun but not liked(at least by the ibew)

Hmmm...I sense another discussion "brewing"...:D
Current doesn't kill you, and neither does voltage. POWER kills you, or, more accurately, current at a high enough voltage to break the skin's resistance.
You can have all the current you want, but if you don't have enough voltage, all that current just won't flow. On the other hand, voltage alone is not likely to kill a healthy human being, but it can eventually get you killed, under the right circumstances (for example, if you have a heart condition).
As per the wires and the tape, again, not really. Current will heat up the conductor, to the point that it may melt the insulation, and/or the tape. But voltage by itself can (and will) perforate the insulation, if it's high enough. The reason why you can use most regular wires on any of the voltages you cited is because most of them have their insulation rated at 10000V. But, if you think voltage is not important, try to use regular household wires for your car's spark plugs, and see how they hold up.

Now, this is gonna be my last post here, at least until Friday. Going on a trip.
Have fun, and keep safe. :)
 
Inodoro_Pereyra said:
Hmmm...I sense another discussion "brewing"...:D
Current doesn't kill you, and neither does voltage. POWER kills you, or, more accurately, current at a high enough voltage to break the skin's resistance.
You can have all the current you want, but if you don't have enough voltage, all that current just won't flow. On the other hand, voltage alone is not likely to kill a healthy human being, but it can eventually get you killed, under the right circumstances (for example, if you have a heart condition).
As per the wires and the tape, again, not really. Current will heat up the conductor, to the point that it may melt the insulation, and/or the tape. But voltage by itself can (and will) perforate the insulation, if it's high enough. The reason why you can use most regular wires on any of the voltages you cited is because most of them have their insulation rated at 10000V. But, if you think voltage is not important, try to use regular household wires for your car's spark plugs, and see how they hold up.

Now, this is gonna be my last post here, at least until Friday. Going on a trip.
Have fun, and keep safe. :)

Im not really refering to killing anyone but more to degrading the insulation itself. And that is what kills insulation. As im looking at the 2008 nec a #12 thhn is rated up to 30 amps in a raceway and 40 amps in free air. in table 310.16. Im not here to debate anything tho im just having fun and i figure y not look up a few things in my code book. :). Now someone tell me what to brew next so i can enjoy myself!!!!! I
 
@ jota21:Again, you think you know better than 3M what their products are good for?

Well if you truly believe that electrical tape is fine for insulating wire connections then by all means go ahead and wire your entire house with black tape and see what happens.......

ALL WIRE not just some need a mechanical connection via clamping or soldering, a loose wrap of "black tape" will just lead to a loose connection and failure, when black tape gets warm it becomes elastic and also the adhesive begins to melt allowing the tape to "remove itself" creating a bare connection that could cause a fire. When a connection becomes loose, smaller amounts of wire are making the connection then in turn overloading that small connection then overheating it and creating a fire in your black tape haven of a home. How could you even sleep at night if you had wires in your walls of your house connected via "black tape"? I know i couldnt, i would worry on my way home if there will be fire trucks parked in front of my house. Remember, loose connections in wires are the leading cause of electrical house fires......
 
Hmmm...the 404 error came back with a vengeance...:mad:

There's no badmouthing of wire nuts necessary. they speak for themselves.
NEC is only used in the US and Canada (actually, I think in Canada it has a different name). The rest of the World uses DIN.
Wire nuts are not DIN compliant. Not for household use, and sure as hell not for industrial use.
Wire nuts leave an opening in the spliced joint. That makes them unsuitable for use in a variety of industrial environments (explosive. high humidity, corrosive, etc), while tape doesn't have those shortcomings.
Like I said before, NEC and UL are standards based on making the installations cheaper and easier, not safer. Even solder is not needed for a tape insulated splice, if you join the wires properly. Solder just lowers the contact resistance even further.

id really like to see 4/0 wire connected via electrical tape in an industrial facility. And for exposive enviroments, you wouldnt be using electrical tape either.... all connections would be in sealed boxes/conduits with explosion proof sealed outlets actually using a mechanical fasterner
 
Like I said before, NEC and UL are standards based on making the installations cheaper and easier, not safer.

Do you really believe what you are saying? Do you not know what the underwriters laboratories are?

http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/

I havent heard so much bad advice in a LONG time.... And i assume you think the iihs doesnt make cars safer either.....
 
I've heard these discussions before on electrical boards. Without the proper mechanical connection, ie. twisting the wires together with your linesmens pliers, tape is less secure than (properly applied) wire nuts. I've seen (as you have with wire nuts) amateurs who feel joining the wires together and sealing with tape was a good job. (No need to use my pliers to twist them together...) (The best one yet was no twisting together and plastic wall anchors as wire nuts...) Properly twisted on (and twisted together) wire nuts are superior to just tape. As has been said here before, when the connection starts to heat up (or age), there goes the adhesive. Now I'm not UL, so I can't say I've used every type of tape, but the tape I have seen is crap. I still use it to insulate devices (outlets and switches) prior to shoving it into the box (metal or plastic), but wouldn't use it alone to insulate a splice.
BTW, The NEC is put out by the NFPA, not U/L (who don't exist in NYS anymore), and they ALWAYS go for safety. If they don't it's their azzes on the line. (See GFIs, Arc Fault breakers, 4 wire 220VAC wiring, etc).
 
Wow, 42 posts on the subject?
I mean, how hard is it to:
- strip wires
- twist
- put cap on
Hell, my dog can do it. Wait....
"Heeere, scruffy.... heere, scruffy"
Okay, scruffy, splice these wires.
Woof, woof!
Done.

I won't repeat, but Bernie Brewer talks about the alternate.
Okay, close this manky thread!
 
Wow, 42 posts on the subject?
I mean, how hard is it to:
- strip wires
- twist
- put cap on
Hell, my dog can do it. Wait....
"Heeere, scruffy.... heere, scruffy"
Okay, scruffy, splice these wires.
Woof, woof!
Done.

I won't repeat, but Bernie Brewer talks about the alternate.
Okay, close this manky thread!

Sparky I don't think it's a good idea to spread electrical propaganda to the forum when clearly your avatar is a picture of you sticking a knife into the wall holes. I believe wall holes is the accepted term by the NEC. Look it up.... if you can't prove me wrong it must be right. Isn't that how it works.
 
Sparky I don't think it's a good idea to spread electrical propaganda to the forum when clearly your avatar is a picture of you sticking a knife into the wall holes.

What electrical propaganda?
Really, how hard is it to strip wires, pig-tail them, and slap a wire nut on?
Or, do you want me to show you the Westinghouse method?

If you want, I am happy to send one of my crews over to show you how.
 
Sparky I don't think it's a good idea to spread electrical propaganda to the forum when clearly your avatar is a picture of you sticking a knife into the wall holes. I believe wall holes is the accepted term by the NEC. Look it up.... if you can't prove me wrong it must be right. Isn't that how it works.

I don't have to look it up. The accepted term is receptacle. BTW, Sparky, that's an awesome avatar!!!!
 
Well if you truly believe that electrical tape is fine for insulating wire connections then by all means go ahead and wire your entire house with black tape and see what happens.......

Like I said before, I come from a country where ALL houses have their whole wiring completely insulated with electrical tape. That is, the houses of 42 million people. Yet our fire departments are known for their personal constantly polishing their equipment. Furthermore, most countries in the World, with the exception of the US, UK, Canada and maybe Japan, use electrical tape as their exclusive means of insulation in houses, so that makes...what? 5 billion people? 6 billion?.
Add to that that, at least in my country, we also have natural gas piping run in the houses, as electricity is expensive, and yet, in 35 years living in a city with 8 million people, I saw far less fires than I saw in 11 years living in Miami, even when it has half the population, and no natural gas.

ALL WIRE not just some need a mechanical connection via clamping or soldering, a loose wrap of "black tape" will just lead to a loose connection and failure, when black tape gets warm it becomes elastic and also the adhesive begins to melt allowing the tape to "remove itself" creating a bare connection that could cause a fire. When a connection becomes loose, smaller amounts of wire are making the connection then in turn overloading that small connection then overheating it and creating a fire in your black tape haven of a home. How could you even sleep at night if you had wires in your walls of your house connected via "black tape"? I know i couldnt, i would worry on my way home if there will be fire trucks parked in front of my house. Remember, loose connections in wires are the leading cause of electrical house fires......

You need to go back and read a little.
I never said or implied that wire should be spliced with electrical tape. I clearly stated that wires should be properly spliced together before applying the tape for the sole purpose of insulation. Not only that, but, if you try, you will realize it's almost impossible to tape 2 or more wires together, if you haven't twisted them together beforehand.
Besides that, tape doesn't become elastic when warm. Tape IS elastic by design, and is that elasticity that keeps it from "removing itself" when applied properly.

id really like to see 4/0 wire connected via electrical tape in an industrial facility. And for exposive enviroments, you wouldnt be using electrical tape either.... all connections would be in sealed boxes/conduits with explosion proof sealed outlets actually using a mechanical fasterner

Yeah, and I'd really like to see 4/0 wire spliced with wire nuts. But none of us will have his wish, because 4/0 wire is not spliced using either, but it's actually spliced using the kind of screw on connectors somebody (I think Bernie, but I'm not sure) linked before.
As per explosive environments, it depends on the environment. In some cases, electrical tape can be used. In others, self vulcanizing tape must be used on top of the electrical tape. And, finally, in the most explosive ones, insulation must be done exclusively with epoxy insulators (sorry, I don't know the right name in English. I'm talking the insulators in which you pour the epoxy inside a "tube" containing the splice.) In NO CASE wire nuts can be used in industrial environments (that is, outside the US and maybe the other countries I mentioned).

Do you really believe what you are saying? Do you not know what the underwriters laboratories are?

http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/

I havent heard so much bad advice in a LONG time.... And i assume you think the iihs doesnt make cars safer either.....

Sorry, I started a policy of not replying to ad hominem attacks. As per "knowing what underwriters Laboratories are", I'd say, after a 32 year long career in electronics, I have a pretty good idea.

I've heard these discussions before on electrical boards. Without the proper mechanical connection, ie. twisting the wires together with your linesmens pliers, tape is less secure than (properly applied) wire nuts. I've seen (as you have with wire nuts) amateurs who feel joining the wires together and sealing with tape was a good job. (No need to use my pliers to twist them together...) (The best one yet was no twisting together and plastic wall anchors as wire nuts...) Properly twisted on (and twisted together) wire nuts are superior to just tape. As has been said here before, when the connection starts to heat up (or age), there goes the adhesive. Now I'm not UL, so I can't say I've used every type of tape, but the tape I have seen is crap. I still use it to insulate devices (outlets and switches) prior to shoving it into the box (metal or plastic), but wouldn't use it alone to insulate a splice.
BTW, The NEC is put out by the NFPA, not U/L (who don't exist in NYS anymore), and they ALWAYS go for safety. If they don't it's their azzes on the line. (See GFIs, Arc Fault breakers, 4 wire 220VAC wiring, etc).

You're comparing 2 different scenarios. Of course, properly installed wire nuts are superior to improperly used tape. Properly used tape is also superior to improperly used wire nuts. But on a PROPERLY spliced wire, tape is superior in every respect to wire nuts, short and long term. Add to that that it's a lot easier to see an improperly taped wire than it is to see an improperly used wire nut, and you can see why most of the World uses tape, even when it's more difficult and slower to use.
 
Inodoro,

I'm not sure I understdand the tape splicing method. Is there any kind of mechanical splice? Are the wires twisted and then taped? What type of tape is used?
 
Inodoro,

I'm not sure I understdand the tape splicing method. Is there any kind of mechanical splice? Are the wires twisted and then taped? What type of tape is used?

I will take a picture and post it. I don't have any solid wire, so it's gonna be stranded. Sorry about that.
 
Here.
Like I said, this is #18 stranded. It's easier to see with solid wire, but I don't have any.

Here's the whole process:

img_0203.jpg


And here's a close up of the first step...

img_0204.jpg


and second step.

img_0205.jpg


In the picture I only used 1 pass of tape. Normally I use 2 passes for 110-240V, and 4 passes for 380-480V.

Hope it helps. :)
 
Thanks for the pics. I understand now and have seen this a few times. It looks like a solid connection. When adding another wire or two or three, I assume you just twist them in? Seems that could get a little bulky especially with larger gauge wire. How does it all fit into a device box?

I hope not to seem doubting. I am just curious. I have been twisting wirenuts since I was 9. 30 years now! My dad first taught me how. I am very anal about connections as was he. My guys always complain when they have to remove wirenuts I have installed. I tell them that they are not supposed to come off.

It is very interesting to learn that things are done so much differently elsewhere.
 
You're welcome. Actually, I have to admit I did it for myself. I always fear my English is not good enough to explain things properly. And, like they say, a picture is worth a thousand words...:)
Those splices are very strong, to the point that I've tried to pull the wires apart a couple of times, and the strands break before the splice gets undone.
Yeah, those splices can get bulky, but, in reality, they're used a lot less than wire nuts here. To really understand how it works you'd have to know the whole system.
I've been looking for a pic online that'd show the back of a switch module, so it'd be easier for me to explain the main differences with the American way of wiring, but I couldn't find any. :(
In reality, most splices are done in the module's contacts (which are very different from the style of contact found here), so, when is all said and done, you can have up to 6 switches (depending on the style of switch you use), or up to 4 non grounded receptacles in a standard 2"x4" box (and the actual box is 2"x4", not 4"x4" like here), and hardly any extra splices. Pigtails are very seldom used.
You also have to understand that at 220V grid voltage, the current wires and modules have to deal with is roughly half of what they have to manage here, for a given load, so that lets you use lighter wire, and that solid wire have been banned in my country for more than 30 years, which also makes it easier to cram the wires in the box.

Believe me, I don't take issue with anybody asking questions. After 11 years being automatically treated like an idiot every time I even mention the electrical tape method, having someone actually giving me the chance to explain myself is refreshing...:rockin:
 
You're welcome. Actually, I have to admit I did it for myself. I always fear my English is not good enough to explain things properly. And, like they say, a picture is worth a thousand words...:)
Those splices are very strong, to the point that I've tried to pull the wires apart a couple of times, and the strands break before the splice gets undone.
Yeah, those splices can get bulky, but, in reality, they're used a lot less than wire nuts here. To really understand how it works you'd have to know the whole system.
I've been looking for a pic online that'd show the back of a switch module, so it'd be easier for me to explain the main differences with the American way of wiring, but I couldn't find any. :(
In reality, most splices are done in the module's contacts (which are very different from the style of contact found here), so, when is all said and done, you can have up to 6 switches (depending on the style of switch you use), or up to 4 non grounded receptacles in a standard 2"x4" box (and the actual box is 2"x4", not 4"x4" like here), and hardly any extra splices. Pigtails are very seldom used.
You also have to understand that at 220V grid voltage, the current wires and modules have to deal with is roughly half of what they have to manage here, for a given load, so that lets you use lighter wire, and that solid wire have been banned in my country for more than 30 years, which also makes it easier to cram the wires in the box.

Believe me, I don't take issue with anybody asking questions. After 11 years being automatically treated like an idiot every time I even mention the electrical tape method, having someone actually giving me the chance to explain myself is refreshing...:rockin:

Your English is better than half the people on here.... including mine. :cross:
 
Your explanation and photos are awesome. I've used that method for joining speaker wires and other low voltage things over the years. Never really knew you could do that for 120v applications. Good to know.
 
Your English is better than half the people on here.... including mine. :cross:

I wish. In reality, the spell check has a lot to do with the quality of my English. But either way, sometimes it gets difficult to find the right word to accurately describe something. Most of you would've probably described that splice way better than I could ever do, with half the words.
But hey, that's what cameras are for...right?:mug:
 
Thanks Samc.
You can basically use it for any voltage, as long as you use enough tape so the voltage can not perforate it. Of course, after a given voltage, it becomes impractical, but that doesn't mean, in a pinch, it can't be done.
I have used this method on 380V installs, without a problem. I have used it with wires as thick as 14 mm2 (about a #6 AWG- we use the section in mm2 in my country). Definitely not fun (kind of a PITA, actually), but it works, and it actually makes the tape look gorgeous.

Scut_monkey: I forgot in my last reply, Yeah, when you need to splice more than 2 wires, you just get 2 together and do the splice with them like they're one, so you do 2+1 for 3 wires, and 2+2 for 4...
 
Your explanation and photos are awesome. I've used that method for joining speaker wires and other low voltage things over the years. Never really knew you could do that for 120v applications. Good to know.

Sam, I don't care what Inodoro says. If I made a splice like that for 120v applications, I would get fired, as would any other electrician. It is a fire waiting to happen. Use a wire nut. Or Polaris lugs.
 
Sam, I don't care what Inodoro says. If I made a splice like that for 120v applications, I would get fired, as would any other electrician. It is a fire waiting to happen. Use a wire nut. Or Polaris lugs.


I said it was good to know, didn't say I would be using it. As I say I've used it for audio connections and after twisting the wires I solder and heat shrink tubing over the connection.
 
Sam, I don't care what Inodoro says. If I made a splice like that for 120v applications, I would get fired, as would any other electrician. It is a fire waiting to happen. Use a wire nut. Or Polaris lugs.

Looks like you too, have a reading problem.
I never said nor implied it was ok to be used by an electrician. Nobody here asked at any time if it was ok to start splicing wires that way at work. Of course you have to follow the code: that's what you're paid for. But that doesn't mean it's not a viable option, in the cases (or places-remember this forum is not only read in the US) in which you don't have to follow the code.

As per this method being a "fire waiting to happen", I don't think you're qualified to make that statement. Are you a physicist? Are you even an electronics, or electrical engineer? Being an electrician by no means makes you a fire hazard expert.
That said, and as I said before, there's plenty of proof, all around the World, that this method is way safer than the use of wire nuts. Maybe you can come up with an explanation as to why most other countries don't seem to have any fire problems derived from its use, yet here it's so dangerous. Maybe you Americans have a different kind of fire...:rolleyes:
 
Wire nuts are the industrial standard - not solder and electrical tape. At my power plant, soldering and electrical tape are not allowed because they do not meet the NEC; whereas, wire nuts are required because of the NEC. Also check out the junction boxes in your home and you'll find wire nuts there.

I know that we are not homebrewing in a power plant and that soldering and electrical tape work very well for our applications. I was just responding to the badmouthing of wire nuts.

Mine are soldered then wirenuts then tape I believe. I'm not sure who did the electrical in my house but they went above and beyond.
 
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