AlpacaBrew
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The good thing with PicoBrew is communication and service.
PicoBrew Zymatic
- Thread starter anthropod
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Baja_Brewer
Well-Known Member
The bad is continued system development/support.
Yeah I am worried about that a bit. Took them almost two weeks to ship mine and I think they might have only done it because I asked for my money back? Communications have been less than desired (they did not respond to my request for a refund, just did the UPS paperwork). They may have too many irons in the fire right now for the size of their staff and ambitions. Hopefully they can pull off everything, grow their business, and be able to support the Z, or I will be really displeased with this purchase. Sigh! Don't want to be negative out the gate, but the purchase and interaction with them so far has been less than stellar.
Anyhow, any advice for a new owner is much appreciated. I have some recipes already crafted and ready to upload once I get my machine and account setup. My plan is to crank out about 5 to 10 brews in short order to fill up my pipeline and get experience with the system, then use it to tune in some beers I have been struggling to get crafted to my liking.
I've heard a lot of positive things about their customer service. But I'm not experiencing it. I'm a new zymatic owner and sent an email with some questions following my first batch. After 10 days and two follow ups a few days apart, I'm still waiting for a reply, or even an acknowledgement that they received my email.
I'm glad that I don't have a problem with the hardware, only a few questions. But good customer service does not leave an email go unanswered for over a week.
So far, I'm not impressed. I hope it's an anomaly.
** Update
I finally got a thorough response with a sincere apology. I'll chalk it up to growing pains. Unless something else goes awry, I'm back in the good customer service camp.
I'm glad that I don't have a problem with the hardware, only a few questions. But good customer service does not leave an email go unanswered for over a week.
So far, I'm not impressed. I hope it's an anomaly.
** Update
I finally got a thorough response with a sincere apology. I'll chalk it up to growing pains. Unless something else goes awry, I'm back in the good customer service camp.
If you haven't already, check out the picobrewers group on facebook. Its very active with experienced users and company reps routinely post with comments/answers.
Baja_Brewer
Well-Known Member
There is a thread that I started somewhere here (I haven't been updating it it) where I have some lessons learned in it. The first few pages might be worth a read for an early user.
Its like I pointed out on the Pico forum - there is no more money to be made from the Z users after they've sold the system. The fact that we're getting the short end of the stick doesn't surprise me, from a business perspective, its just super schitty. They're focusing on rolling out revenue generators, like the new Free Style Pico Pak crafter where they will sell you 4.5lbs of grain and 1.7oz of hops and a packet of US-05 for an IPA for $28, or 5.87lbs of grain and 1.1oz of hops and a packet of US-05 for $29!
I doubt they'll see a drop off on Z sales, especially with Denny & his podcast as a sales platform - but they clearly have no interest in supporting it. Sounds like their once great CS is even start to taper.
+ 1 on that
dude3516
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Can I ask what is your largest gripe with the machine?. Wife is pregnant and I don't want to give up brewing, but also know I will no longer have 6 contiguous hours on a saturday. Thought the Z might be the right fit for what I'll need the next couple years.
First off your reasoning for the Z is perfect. You still do ALL the important brewing parts yourself, except you don't have to babysit it all day. LOVE IT!
My only gripe, and it is technology specific and not Z specific, is that just like modern cars if they stop working your kinda screwed and have to get expert help. Unlike basic Newtonian systems where you have gravity, a heat source and maybe a pump, issues are pretty easy to diagnose and fix. That said, I am never going back.
So I take it you must work there to have so much inside info about what they are and aren't doing?
They've all been at CES. AFAIK, they're getting caught up now.
That's a pretty bold statement.
As a potential buyer of the Z I must say this thread gives me pause, even with the recent discounts I believe I'll wait. I'm old enough to have bought into to many gadgets that didn't last, or lost product support and left me holding the bag. So I'm going to wait and see how this one pans out....unless Pico want's to send me a free one to try
QoB
Well-Known Member
Hi Everyone,
We're in the process of hiring additional staff for Customer Care. The Pico put a load on that department, more than anticipated. As much as we were prepared, we weren't!
All apologies. We aren't that much off the wagon and are getting back to our 5 star service.
In the meantime if you have questions or comments, please send them to [email protected] and please feel free to mention my name.
For those whom are awaiting unanswered emails please write to me. Annie. AT. PICOBREW. Dot. Com
Cheers
We're in the process of hiring additional staff for Customer Care. The Pico put a load on that department, more than anticipated. As much as we were prepared, we weren't!
All apologies. We aren't that much off the wagon and are getting back to our 5 star service.
In the meantime if you have questions or comments, please send them to [email protected] and please feel free to mention my name.
For those whom are awaiting unanswered emails please write to me. Annie. AT. PICOBREW. Dot. Com
Cheers
QoB
Well-Known Member
Entirely false
Sorrow
Well-Known Member
Just my 2cents. I pulled the trigger and ordered my Z mid-Dec and had it in hand right before christmas. I really have no complaints. I've got 8 batches done already, straight out of the box. Setup was simple and I've got things down to where I can brew 2 batches a day. Not having to find a day where I can spend 6-8 hours brewing is great. After the first batch completed successfully I stopped watching the device itself and just monitored the progress via the web interface. Having more family time while brewing beer has been awesome. When summer hits and we're outside more I'll use my regular setup for bigger batches, but right now I'm loving the Z and glad I made the purchase. Just an FYI for anyone on the fence.
And just how much of the kind and straightforward instructions did you chose not to pay attention to?
Baja_Brewer
Well-Known Member
Look, Denny, you're respected in the Homebrewing community, and you like your Z- so continue to pump it up. But when actions speak louder than words, and those words taper off into NO response from their team (except from outside negative publicity, apparently - hi Annie) - do you really expect everyone to pretend everything is hunky-dory?
They haven't addressed an issue that's has existed for 2+ years that much of the user base has an issue with - the advanced recipe crafter. That's like having a 10 way power seat installed in your car that resets to default settings every time you climb in.
So keep pumping them on your podcast, making excuses for them, and arguing with me here- the lack of response to the Z users on their own forum speaks volumes.
If they start losing business because people speak up about the issues they have, maybe things will change.
But since you clearly know I'm not on their staff, and you're also apparently quite cozy with the Picobrew team (especially since @QoB showed up at a convenient time) - how about you prove me wrong? Tell us whats in the works that is actually supporting the potential the system has.
All conjecture from all sides aside, this is actually a very fair question. What is the roadmap for the Zymatic? When (Will?) will Baja's issue with the advanced editor "bug" be resolved? When (Will?) the software go Public Domain so that folks like the talented home brewers on these forums can make this device even more special by shear volume of talent? Most home brewers I know are very technical folks, that is one of the things that attracts us to the hobby (besides delicious, fresh, beer!). Can Denny and Annie use their influence/contacts to get answers to our questions?
I bought one because I want consistent mash results to match my consistent fermentation results to make better beer. I also like the prospect of this device being very convenient to people like myself with a hectic career, a great family to attend to, who happens to love brewing beer but has a lot of demands on my time. If I had the source code, I could add a feature to let me start the brewing process from my office so that when I got home, I could attend to post mash/boil process. If I could then share that update either here or on a public repository and others could as well, how powerful would that be?
The whole purpose of this forum is to share, whether that be a killer recipe, a new piece of kit you stumbled onto, or a gripe or question. Please use your contacts to help make this better and we ALL win. Cheers!!
Baja_Brewer
Well-Known Member
Great question. At this point? Open sourcing like they promoted in the Kickstarter. If they had continued development of the system, I might not care. But they haven't.
Here is the change log for the Z firmware: https://picobrew.com/members/software/Zymatic/Firmware.cshtml Last update was 1.12 as of May 2016, shortly after the major 1.11 update which was really the 1.10 update in which I, a lowly user, had to point out to them that the keg-pump (flow into the Z) never turned off. I ruined a brew in the process. Before that? All firmware updates were beta testing type fixes in the firmware.
Here is the thing - many early adopters, including yours truly, are tech geeks. If they open sourced, there would be a significant number of features available. People have asked for features on the forum - there is a whole sub-section devoted to it. People have asked them for an API. People have asked them to simply open source, like they said they would in the Kickstarter. Nada.
Example: you know what would be great to do? Have the machine start a brew while I'm at work, so I can come home and start the chill and then pitch the yeast after dinner. If they could build in a delay start, which I know I could if this were open sourced, putting all the risks on the users, could be done. This could be done now by making the thing circulate the water at room temp for 4 hours, and then have it start the brew 5 hours before I get home, but that can't be good for the pump life. Solution? Open source.
Baja_Brewer
Well-Known Member
Emphasis mine. Uncanny - I had to retype my second post because I lost my first post, but one of the same interests.
I'm not looking to turn this into a Baja_Brewer vs Picobrew issue, or a Baja vs Denny glove sizing contest - but I'm going to speak my mind, even if it goes against the conventional "They have great customer service" posts that Picobrew would rather see in the public domain. Others on their forum clearly misgivings, but are keeping that flame of hope burning. For me? The writing is on the wall... and with people spending ~$1.8k/system, they deserve a heads up.
Can't disagree with any of this. Positive thoughts towards positive progress.
What is funny to me is that there is no credible competitor on the market to this machine, yet folks complain about how disappointed they are with the progress and changes.
From the perspective of someone who has had the Z for a year and half now - the "bug" to me is a non issue. It in no way prevents me from crafting recipes and brewing. Period. Would I like to see it fancier with an easier interface - sure - but this issue by no means would come close to making me second guess my purchase - not by a long shot. So while some here guy the feathers ruffled by stuff like this - I don't want people to think this represent all Z owners. Baja - get into perspective man! Techie or not - the machine does what it's supposed to do! I get that you would love it to do other things from a software side - but with a standard system you are doing all that by hand - if you prefer that - nothing's stopping you from using your old system
Also - customer service - as if a month ago or so it was still the same top notch lightning speed response from them / Saturday, Sunday, any day. I think it's because they are so good that it is noticeable (not by me mind you) hat it slows when they are stressed with other things like new releases or CES. I think this issue as well is getting blown out of proportion, the rare unrepresentative experiences of some on here notwithstanding
dude3516
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I did, but figured I'd ask here as well. Was hoping I had caught her as she was browsing.
dude3516
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Yea, the open source was something I was definitely interested in, as I'm a programmer, and the advanced editor bug definitely sounds rather frustrating. I don't suppose they allow for recipe import via xml or some other data format? That I could atleast work around and keep my recipe iterations stored locally, so I wouldn't be reworking from scratch.
It does support BeerXML. I bought a used unit before Christmas and unfortunately UPS destroyed it on its way to me. We are still fighting UPS - all they've offered to date is $160! Anyway, I did get to register and play with the recipe editor and was able to import recipes from BeerSmith... the calculations in the recipe editor didn't really match though, but that may be down to the equipment profile (even though I set the Zymatic up in BS based on a known profile)... unfortunately due to the aforementioned damage I've not been able to determine what changes need to be made.
Incidentally, I had several back and forths with customer service to determine what, if anything, we could do to salvage the machine and I will say that I was truly impressed with the knowledge and responsiveness of the customer service. A shout out to Kevin at Picobrew... he was awesome.
Incidentally, I had several back and forths with customer service to determine what, if anything, we could do to salvage the machine and I will say that I was truly impressed with the knowledge and responsiveness of the customer service. A shout out to Kevin at Picobrew... he was awesome.
Baja_Brewer
Well-Known Member
The crafter isn't the issue. Its a symptom of the issue- the system is not continuing to be developed, nor is it being open sourced as promoted 3+ years ago. (If it was open sourced the crafter also wouldn't be an issue.)
Why is everyone is getting so bent out of shape by me having an issue with this? I use the system in its current state- it works, its fine, it could be more. As for your last little note- I may be the one of the only ones expressing my frustrations here, but I'm certainly not alone in the sentiment, and will continue to express myself since I don't think that "great CS response times" warrants letting other issues slide.
By the way the $300 off code zymatic300 is not a joke. just tried it out.......
I get it. Perhaps it's the whole text versus in person thing - but the tone of the complaints really comes across as aggressive displeasure - and may be turning off people to a great device. I don't think that does anyone a service. Now, if there are some who really are interested in the Z because of the potential for open sourcing the software - then so be it, but the way I perceive your issues is that you are pissed at the whole thing. By all means have your opinions, but perhaps framing them in the context of the big picture for others would be the best course of action. I for one bought the machine for what it was out of the box - not based on its potential dependent on future upgrades etc. The thing makes wort - and does it well - that's what I want. Also, customer service - when I buy a computer (similar price lets say) I do not get, nor do I expect anywhere near the degree of CS that this company has provided. Again, keep things in perspective - and don't let their great track record in the past for CS be held against them as they occasionally can't live up to their own lofty standards.
Baja has a lengthy thread on here that spans a few years. I don't know him or want to speak for him, but what I get out of his posts is that this is a great machine, that their CS is good if not great, that it may have started to slip a bit (or as others have said, they are busy), they made promises 3 years ago that have not come to fruition, and they are not updating the software as often as he believes they should. When making my recent decision to purchase one, I took all that into account and still ordered the machine. I think the purpose of this forum is to hear all sides, the pros and the cons, so that we can think about what we really want out of the product and decide if that is what we are going to get. What I want is a machine that makes wort with consistency and with less interaction from me as I want to make beer but don't have as much time as I used to. I am also for pushing the folks at Pico to live up to their promises and support the software on this device, because it COULD be better with some work. If they don't do that, it won't be the end of the world, but in the end I think the more they can do to support the development of the product, the more loyal their user base will be and the more successful they will be. It sounds to me from the overwhelming majority of folks here that they really want to (do!) support this device, so I am hopeful that they will listen to the community's feedback like they did to a certain home brewer of the year award winner and keep improving the product. If not, we will still make beer and can RDWHAHB.
I don't work there, which is why I asked Annie to step in here. You were making statements about their intentions with such certainty that I wondered how you were able to reach those conclusions. I'm not any happier with the Recipe Crafter than you (or the Picobrew people for that matter) but for me it's not a deal breaker in terms of usability. In fact, it seems like that's the case for most people. And it certainly doesn't make me question their motives, which is what I sensed with you.
Like many things on the InterWeb, people quickly assume intent, meanings, etc, that would probably not be done in a face to face meeting. Let us be very clear. The Z DOES do what we expect, the customer service HAS been stellar, even if some people say the responsiveness dropped some (and Annie has cleared up that point). We HAVE had updates to the Z over the last couple of years, so burning and not so burning issues have been resolved.
However, I think that a number of people in the user community have been disappointed because the expectation had been set that one very inconvenient issue was going to be resolved "soon". When you hear "coming soon" for over a year, some frustration does set in. When people are frustrated, other much smaller issues, e.g. open source, get magnified. A flame war, where this thread is trending, is not going to solve anything.
I trust PB to do the right thing. I understand that the Pico machine is important to PB's future but may have taken more of their resources than expected. I am glad to hear that they are bolstering their CS ranks, that will help. I AM concerned that the announcement of another product will continue to divert focus from the Z. My call for open source was to allow the user community to contribute to resolving some of the issues and requests, without overloading their development staff. Our concerns have been raised quite publicly, so I am sure that PB is aware. Let us be patient and allow them a bit more time to address the issue, especially now they have seen how much the frustration has risen.
Stefan
However, I think that a number of people in the user community have been disappointed because the expectation had been set that one very inconvenient issue was going to be resolved "soon". When you hear "coming soon" for over a year, some frustration does set in. When people are frustrated, other much smaller issues, e.g. open source, get magnified. A flame war, where this thread is trending, is not going to solve anything.
I trust PB to do the right thing. I understand that the Pico machine is important to PB's future but may have taken more of their resources than expected. I am glad to hear that they are bolstering their CS ranks, that will help. I AM concerned that the announcement of another product will continue to divert focus from the Z. My call for open source was to allow the user community to contribute to resolving some of the issues and requests, without overloading their development staff. Our concerns have been raised quite publicly, so I am sure that PB is aware. Let us be patient and allow them a bit more time to address the issue, especially now they have seen how much the frustration has risen.
Stefan
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I've had my Z for a bit over a year now and I find myself agreeing with parts of both sides:
1. The "Z" itself: Of all the automated systems out there that I looked at this was the most "complete" solution I saw. I am still of the opinion that for a machine that is able to run the hot side of the brewery neatly and in a streamlined way, while still providing flexibility it's one of the best, if not the best.
2. Customer Service: I've never had anything less than great customer service. I do worry that with all of the new Picos out there in the hands of less technical/savvy users that their customer service could get overwhelmed. It makes me think of Tesla with their Model 3 launch coming up.
3. Recipe crafter: My opinion, and my opinion only is it's kind of a mess. I stopped using it except to manage the steps in the advanced editor after about a 6 batches. I'll load some data to make it look pretty so i don't get confused when brewing. i'm using beer smith to build my recipes, water volumes, etc. The advanced editor bug annoys me to no end since it's so insidious. you really don't know you've done anything to break your recipe steps until either you A) double check or B) are in the middle of a brew and it does something you're not expecting and you've got to try and recover.
My hope is the reason why the recipe crafter hasn't seen any updates is because the dev team has been busy building the new recipe system for the Indy and that it'll also work with the "Z". It would great if someone would confirm or deny that from Picobrew... If that's not the reason then well... I'd rather not think about the implications of that on the long term viability of the "Z" (or even getting the advanced editor bug fixed)...
-J
1. The "Z" itself: Of all the automated systems out there that I looked at this was the most "complete" solution I saw. I am still of the opinion that for a machine that is able to run the hot side of the brewery neatly and in a streamlined way, while still providing flexibility it's one of the best, if not the best.
2. Customer Service: I've never had anything less than great customer service. I do worry that with all of the new Picos out there in the hands of less technical/savvy users that their customer service could get overwhelmed. It makes me think of Tesla with their Model 3 launch coming up.
3. Recipe crafter: My opinion, and my opinion only is it's kind of a mess. I stopped using it except to manage the steps in the advanced editor after about a 6 batches. I'll load some data to make it look pretty so i don't get confused when brewing. i'm using beer smith to build my recipes, water volumes, etc. The advanced editor bug annoys me to no end since it's so insidious. you really don't know you've done anything to break your recipe steps until either you A) double check or B) are in the middle of a brew and it does something you're not expecting and you've got to try and recover.
My hope is the reason why the recipe crafter hasn't seen any updates is because the dev team has been busy building the new recipe system for the Indy and that it'll also work with the "Z". It would great if someone would confirm or deny that from Picobrew... If that's not the reason then well... I'd rather not think about the implications of that on the long term viability of the "Z" (or even getting the advanced editor bug fixed)...
-J
Josh - off the current topic, but do you you have a Beersmith equipment profile you use for your 'Z' that you could share?
As a potential buyer of the Z I must say this thread gives me pause, even with the recent discounts I believe I'll wait. I'm old enough to have bought into to many gadgets that didn't last, or lost product support and left me holding the bag. So I'm going to wait and see how this one pans out....unless Pico want's to send me a free one to try
As stated from my earlier post, I'm looking at the Z but I came across recent news of updates to a somewhat similar device and I must say it's not looking good for the pico (in my future). I won't mention which device because I don't wish to hijack this thread.
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