Phase 2 brewery build progress shots

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kladue said:
The sensors are stainless steel wet sensors with a 2 wire 4-20MA loop powered interface. I will have to lookup the make and model numbers and let you know what they were. What is interesting is no one has tried to make a liquid isolator with saran wrap sandwiched between plastic flanges. Glue sensor on one side and connect wet pressure on other side, if there are no air leaks on sensor it should work well. We use same principal to isolate hazardous chemicals from pressure devices in industry, but I have not used them for this low a pressure range before.
With a negative offset value applied to signal, density correction formula for temperature compensation, and time scaled SG factor, the freescale sensors should be fairly close most of the time.
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Where I work we tried ssomething like this, it was to protect the sumbersable pressure sensor from lightning strikes. If I remember correctly these were 15 PSIg PITs. They worked okay but accuracy was always an issue. Any air in the system and temperature changes would hose the calibration. They ended up dropping the design.
 
I went with mounting the sensors below the tanks and graded the lines up to the connection to let air bubbles out. By applying a negative offset the sensors outputs are compensated for static head at zero level in keg. The freescale sensors are interesting, price is right, but there needs to be an isolator for sensor to keep water out. I have been looking for a cheap method of building an isolator, the low pressure level switches for dishwashers and washing machines are canidates for isolators, remove switch and epoxy sensor to upper half after sealing other holes. The larger diaphragm area should make response fairly good, and if mounted below heat area with connecion up to vent air it should work reasonably well.
 
I've mounted my sensors above the water line so that the water can never reach the sensor. But I do like the idea of the isolator, that would be nice to keep the sensor near the vessel without needing much tubing.
 
Here is a possible method to isolate the sensor from liquid when mounted below the kettle level. take 24"+ of 1/4" od tubing and make a 3"-4" multi turn vertical coil to stop liquid while trapped air ahead of liquid is compressed against sensor. If made with translucent tube it could be monitored for liquid fill and drained when liquid approaches sensor. If kept away from heat sources it should make a cheap way to isolate the Freescale sensors mounted below kettle outlet that is reasonably stable.
 
Take a 4" pvc pipe cap and coil the tubing inside, drill 1/4" holes to feed tubing in/out, drill back and bolt to frame. That should make a clean way to handle tubing and mounting to brew frame with some sheilding of the tubing.
 
I have finally got around to building a replacement for the SS boiler in the Phase 2 system, this one is 6 -16'8" coils for 100' total tube length.http://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/Boiler02#5463697378793300258 Tubing was tight wound around 2-1/2" PVC pipe then the coils were spread by uncoiling over a piece of 1" PVC to get 1-1/2" spread between coils. Then all six coils were meshed and a piece of 1/2" copper was placed in center and coils were spread and 1/2" copper pipe was used to keep coils apart. Modified 5/8" swagelok cap was fit to the bottom and silver soldered with 56% silver braze to hold tubes in place. Top was assembled with identical swagelok fitting and silver brazed so there would be no solder failure if outlet temperature went over 425 degrees. Finished boiler is slightly under 6" OD and about 24" tall, should be able to hit strike temps at 1 GPM now. When I get this installed in the new system there is enough instrumentation on water, fuel, and temperatures to record performance and efficiency when I run the system.
 
Oh, Yea!! That is sweet.:mug:

Very nice work. I wonder how well your coils will stay in place? Mine moved real bad and I had to take apart my boiler and affix them so they wouldn't move again. Maybe you could silver braze the coils where they intersect each other? After the mod to mine, looking down inside I can see where it has wanted to move again. I am glad I restrained them.

I hope it works as good or better then it looks.

How tight is that first bend? Then one at the bottom. I wouldn't dream of trying to make a bend that tight. I would kink it.
 
Bottom bends were 90 degree bends made with rigid tubing bender to fit hole in 2-1/2" pipe for winding the tight coils. Top side was a combination of tube bender and hand tweaking.
 
kladue said:
Bottom bends were 90 degree bends made with rigid tubing bender to fit hole in 2-1/2" pipe for winding the tight coils. Top side was a combination of tube bender and hand tweaking.
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Nice. Do you think I would have any problems using the Oatey brand solder? It melts at 415-455 degrees. I found an old jar of LA-CO flux and I have already tried to solder bass with it. It works very well. I don't think I will buy another tin of the #95 tinning flux. That LA-CO is nice flux.
 
I used the Safety Silv 56% silver braze, not cheap $35 with stay silv flux, but it will not melt below 1,200 degrees. The Silva brite 100 is a good 425 degree solder, use no korode or laco paste flux and it should be okay. You will have to wash off the petroleum binder and residue after though, hot water and liquid dish detergent usually gets the job done.
 
kladue said:
I used the Safety Silv 56% silver braze, not cheap $35 with stay silv flux, but it will not melt below 1,200 degrees. The Silva brite 100 is a good 425 degree solder, use no korode or laco paste flux and it should be okay. You will have to wash off the petroleum binder and residue after though, hot water and liquid dish detergent usually gets the job done.
Click to expand...


That beats my Silvaloy 15. I paid about twice that. I didn't mutter too loudly though as the retail on it was $130. I have the Utraflux (White) by Wolverine to go with my Silvaloy for brass. I'll do a test and see how well it will braze together for me.
 
That blows me away!!! Very nice....not that it is important but I would guesstimate 8k invested atleast......regardless it is very nice
 
The system is about 60% done, still to go are fermentation rack for 6 carboys with individual temperature control, malt measuring system over hopper, and cleaning system for carboys and bottles. Still have the interior finish to do, planning to fiberglass the floor under the brewing equipment so spills run to floor drain,insulate and sheet rock walls, add 2 basin utility sink, heat and AC equipment, lighting. The Phase 2 is another prototype gas burning system designed for indoors use. The next system under design will be 2 vessel system with different automation and process control devices for a lower initial cost to build, and smaller footprint, probably a gas electric hybrid design.
 
I am curious about one thing......do you brew as a hobby only or as a professional who built a pilot brew system to introduce new beer to his line?
 
I brew as a hobby and did quite well in competitons when I have entered, but I like to build things and this system is an attempt to automate a homebrew scale sized system like the commercial breweries I have worked at. The current control software is an amalgam of recipe construction, process control functions, and data recording and graphing. You can build the recipe and use the resulting values for generation of brewing process control, monitor the process for safety exceptions and shutdown if necessary, log system variables, and graphing of process variables. Since I am developing the software code along with design and build of the hardware, I can incorporate features as I find need for them and then simulate system operation for testing of code for function before going live.
 
First: Mad props on the sweet system. I've got huge respect for your fab skills & industrial process knowledge.

My only experience working with steam has been with saturated steam in nuclear power plants... and I've never worked with superheated steam. I saw that you tossed out 425F as an achievable temp with your flash boiler... which I think water has a saturation pressure of around 250-300 psi. Without traps in the design to handle condensate is there a risk of developing these pressures in your coil and bursting it? I didn't think soft copper could operate at those temperatures/pressures.

Again, not trying to discount the design, mainly just asking because I know you've worked with superheated steam. You build seems like one that would have a traditional boiler with steam jacketed kettles :D.

:mug:
 
Big difference between the saturated steam systems you are familiar with and the flash boiler system that has water evaporation in the lower level and additional vapor heating in the upper reaches without need for pressure. The flash boiler will operate at about 1 psi (opening pressure of outlet check valve) and SS coil boiler has been up to 500 degrees at the outlet. Most of the steam systems I have worked around range from smaller 15 -150 psi saturated packaged steam boilers and larger superheated steam systems running from 300 - 2,000 psi for power generation. Steam temperature does not have to follow pressure like saturated systems, with superheating you can maintain low pressure but heat the vapor to high temperatures without significant pressure change. The largest challenge is the small volume of liquid means temperature changes are quick, 50 - 165 degrees at .5 Gpm on old boiler in about 45-50 seconds, steam in about 60 seconds, should be able to beat that with copper boiler.
 
How do you prevent moisture from a violent boil being carried up those tubes. I know in our steam systems there were moisture separators in the steam generator that kept most liquid out of the steam system... and that has been my biggest curiosity with the flash boiler process. When you get a leg of water up a coil? Am I right in the assumption that there is water at saturation pressure at the bottom of the inlet tube/coils?.. or are you running steam in to it?
 
You feed water to the bottom and it heats as it rises, boiling level depends on flow and burner firing level. with the diameter to length ratio there is usually enough surface to finish boiling any water that escapes boiling zone. Unlike the boilers with water seperators in the top of the drum that coalesce water drops and send them back to the drum, the tubing curves and length take care of that function. Water has to be fed from the bottom because the dissolved air fotms bubbles whic can block flow in a top down feed situation. This was discovered when I built the first flash boiler 7 years ago for R&D steam brewing system, it popped and snapped as water flashed in the tubing instead of boiling smoothly. Changing the flow to bottom up eliminated the problem as the air bubbles traveled with the water, instead of blocking flow.
 
I've only been on this board less than a year and I'd have to say, your rig is by far the most overkill (in a good way:D) and elaborate design I have EVER seen and will ever see in my lifetime. Sometimes I look at my rig and think......"man did I ever need to get this crazy just to make beer?".

Then I see yours and think HOLY SH*T! :D

Great job:mug:
 
I have been toying with the idea of improving the first rig design and making something that can be broken down into component assemblies and stored easily. With current system automation and process control as test system I believe a reduced capability version could be built for traditional single infusion mash and step mashing control. Not everyone has the space for a dedicated brewing rig, and a system that could be broken down and stored in a closet or cabinet might have some use. The old system would fit in the trunk and back seat of a car for transport, and took about 15 minutes to assemble/disassemble.
 
Pressure tested the boiler to 100 PSI with Argon, no bubbles or pressure loss so it should be good to go now. Shipping it back to house tonight so it will be there next week when i take next R&R trip home, and hope to find time to test it before heading back to Arizona again.
 
Made the boiler coil swap and have fired it up for a output test, it hit 50 degrees in and 165 degrees out at .5 gpm with 35K btu's input for about 82% efficiency. Found that the massflow controller needs recalibration to get full flow on propane, it was setup for N2 and only delivers 7.2 LPM / 36% full output on propane. The new boiler definately has more coil area than needed as the gas temperature leaving the boiler was 190 degrees.
 
After some tuning on the mass flow controller I am able to push the strike flow heating up to 168 degrees at .75 gpm, steam at .5 GPM with the new boiler. Next up is finish PID loop tuning for strike water heating then sparge water heating and steam. After loop tuning is done it will be time for auto control run tomorrow to check out malt transport and mashing equipment. Had a suprise when paper liner attached to aluminum heat sheild ignited during boiler test, it seems the radiant heat from the boiler chimney in the burner area was too much for the paper.
 
kladue said:
After some tuning on the mass flow controller I am able to push the strike flow heating up to 168 degrees at .75 gpm, steam at .5 GPM with the new boiler. Next up is finish PID loop tuning for strike water heating then sparge water heating and steam. After loop tuning is done it will be time for auto control run tomorrow to check out malt transport and mashing equipment. Had a suprise when paper liner attached to aluminum heat sheild ignited during boiler test, it seems the radiant heat from the boiler chimney in the burner area was too much for the paper.
Click to expand...

That's where I am at with my boiler.I can heat cold 50* water on the fly to 170ish at .75 GPM. At the .5 GPM I get steam on the output. At least at the boiler I do.

I hope all goes well for you on the test run. I am waiting for your post about brewing on the system. You have an intense amount of time invested in your new setup. Not that I have to tell you.:)

Have a good night Klaude.:mug:
 
I have spent a bit of time putting together the main system graphic screen and placing the control and measurement devices with values on there. The conversion to JPG leaves a lot to be desired but it is sorta legible. http://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/ScreenShots#5485797437871344834 Not much left to tweak in the software at this point, all the hardware and software is functional, just need some tuning time on the system now as PID loop tuning last thing left to do. Next up is moving the code to the Java ME platform in preperation for use on an ARM 9 platform, and the memory challenged panel PC.
 
After building and testing the copper boiler I found that the 100' copper boiler was too large for the burner capacity and would heat water fine but sucked at steam generation. It appears that the hot gasses cooled enough that the steam was cooling in the upper level of the boiler and driving the burner to reach superheat steam temperatures melted the silver solder in the bottom connection. The original 80' SS tube boiler was re-installed and it seems to be working well enough now that the mass flow gas controller was tweaked to increase flow. The last test run for water heating was holding 168 degrees at .75 GPM, up from the .5 GPM from previous testing. The plumbing and software have been revised to eliminate the water measure and storage tank, and add a solenoid valve for .3GPH water flow during steam generation. The proportional valves just could not hit the same point each time at that low of a flow so a solenoid valve and a Dwyer flow meter with flow adjustment was piped in a bypass of the primary electronic flow meter and proportional valve to hit the low flow needed. The graphics have been modified to reflect the ongoing design work and additions to the hardware and software to eliminate the dial gauges and incorporate a malt measuring and feed system copied from dry measure packaging systems. Code and graphics are finished and simulation runs of the feed system are working, so next step is to build and wire the full scale version.
Here are some of the updated graphics http://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/AutomaticMaltSystem#
 
So what do you envision the capability of this system to be? Press a button for any recipe and it brews the whole thing without any other input? Or do you still have to load the ingredients before you run it?
 
At this point you still have to load the hops by hand and connect the fermenter, but after creating your recipe or retrieving a saved recipe all you do is hit autorun icon, the software and hardware does the rest. For the most part this is a make work exercise to take up time while working away from home. This is an evolution of the first steam RIMS system I built in 2003 http://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/OldBrewingSystem#, this unit is the all manual version that I used for design of the automated system, as far as I know it is the only other steam RIMS unit around.
 
kladue said:
incorporate a malt measuring and feed system copied from dry measure packaging systems.
Click to expand...
What system did you select?
I went to a volumetric dispensing system for the time being.
All motors, sensors for the rotary valves I had in stock and load cells I don't have.
My main control panel and program is done, the silos need the cones and other hardware.
The grain transportation system from and to the grain mill is still missing.
Great to read about your progress.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB
 
Kladue,
this is impressive!!!
Would you mind sharing some details about the boil kettle burner?
 
The boil kettle burner is made from 1" Od tubing cut 6" long and then mitered and tig welded to a 1" center tube. The gas jet is 1/16" and arm openings are 3/32" holes were drilled 1/4" C-C 45 degrees from top. A 1/4" X 1-1/2" fender washer was used to spread fire 360 degrees for fast ignition of all 6 arms from one pilot burner, openings under washer provide gas air mix. After experimenting on a couple other burners like this the optimum hole size and spacing were developed for clean burn with high pressure propane feed. The general layout can be scaled for larger kettles by up sizing pipe arms but the arm openings should stay 1/8" or smaller to allow flame to be turned down without flash back.
 
Thanks Kevin,
I like how your burner nicely spreads the heat. I often wonder about the intensity of some of the small diameter burners. Once I had to replace the bottom in one of my kettles after the sheet had work hardened (think that's the right name for the phenomenon?) Tried to weld the hair cracks, but while welding one I could see about 10 more developing!!! I ended up welding the bottom of a keg onto what was left of the original bottom.

I don't completely understand the fender washer fire spreader bit. Is that the one on top of the centre tube? You raise that washer a bit above the centre pipe to get a little gas flowing towards the 6 arms to get the flame to spread to all of them?
Is it a bolt and nut system w the nut welded onto the top of the centre pipe and to raise it you screw out the bolt a bit?
I also wondered if to make the welding of the arms to the centre pipe a bit easier it would be an option to give at least the upper portion of that pipe a larger diameter? It would give more room / manoeuvrability to weld the beads there. I guess in that case the flame spreader would have to be made accordingly larger?
Although it looks like you are getting a very clean burn, would trying to make to create a vortex in the centre pipe be beneficial?

It's nice to be able to ask such questions!

BTW: for many years I have been using various kinds of burners and controls from water heaters and furnaces. I think over in Europe more people are doing it and if I am right Boerderij Kabouter may actually have an article about that on his website.
I haven't come across anybody who's doing that here.
It's nice to have the pilot and safety features that come with that. I myself wouldn't trust a ring or other burner that doesn't have either of the above.
For my BK for example I use the whole unit from a water heater, including the built-in probe and thermostat. I simply welded a 3/4" nipple onto the keggle at the right height in the side to get the burner at the right distance from the bottom, screwed a 3/4" connector onto it and screwed the probe in the connector. The thermostat needed tweaking for higher temps, but that was easy enough.

I hope I am not sidetracking here, I wondered about starting a specific thread...
 
Here is a shot from the top of the burner while burning http://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/PilotLights#5157308850096904738, the fender washer is held on with 1/4-20 bolt in tapped opening in center. The gas feeds are holes drilled where tubing meets at welds, and when the pilot flame lights the first 2 arms the flame at the center lights the rest of the arms instantly. The other burners I have built use 3" tube in the center, drilled for 1" tube and sealed top and bottom with a solid plate, here is a poor shot of the other burnerhttp://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/OldBrewingSystem#5259648266760639282. The gas jet openings for the burners are 1/16" and usually the operating pressure is about 5-10 PSI for maximum flame.
 
Thanks a bunch Kevin,
great work.
Second burner: that's the kind of design I was referring to indeed. With this one, one could weld the 1 inchers from the inside of the 3 inch pipe before welding on the bottom plate to close it off.
Any thoughts about reusing burners from water heaters as I mentioned before?
 

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