Phase 2 brewery build progress shots

[jcdillin]

So when can you come over and help me put the finishing touches on my automated brewery

I may have missed it in your thread, how are you measuring volume?

Amazing!!

 

[kladue]

The wet sensors in water, mash, and boil are temperature and SG corrected based on measured vessel temperatures and estimated SG from recipe calculations. This program is built for operation on a 500MHZ 256 Meg memory touch screen panel pc, effort was made to keep memory and CPU loads minimized to allow reasonable operating response. Only initial pane is fixed, all others are dialog panes that popup when activated, and first pane is iconified to recover memory.
What hardware platform do you plan to use, change the I/O on this to match hardware and it should work for other systems.

 

[jcdillin]

I'm assuming these sensors are probably quite expensive?

 

[kladue]

I paid about $10 -$25 each from ebay, pressure range is 0-2 Psi (0-54" water column). I have seen some for about $50 but if you are patient you should be able to find some cheaper.

 

[jcdillin]

Do you have any model numbers? The sensors are designed to be wet or are you using them like we use the MPX5010DP's measuring the air pressure from the column of water?

 

[ClaudiusB]

Kladu as always great work.

So when can you come over and help me put the finishing touches on my automated brewery

Would be nice if he could stop in El Paso first on his way to Florida.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

 

[kladue]

The sensors are stainless steel wet sensors with a 2 wire 4-20MA loop powered interface. I will have to lookup the make and model numbers and let you know what they were. What is interesting is no one has tried to make a liquid isolator with saran wrap sandwiched between plastic flanges. Glue sensor on one side and connect wet pressure on other side, if there are no air leaks on sensor it should work well. We use same principal to isolate hazardous chemicals from pressure devices in industry, but I have not used them for this low a pressure range before.
With a negative offset value applied to signal, density correction formula for temperature compensation, and time scaled SG factor, the freescale sensors should be fairly close most of the time.

 

[jcdillin]

I've had very good results with my sensor ports mounted in the bottom of the vessels and a tube running to the sensor mounted at the top of the vessel. I'm just curious if there are more robust sensors that I could mount directly in the bottom of the vessel and do away with the tubing alltogether.

Also how are you dealing with boilover? is your vessel just big enough to handle any amount of boilover foam?

 

[kladue]

I have chosen to mount the sensors on tubing away from the heat to help reduce the drift of the not so perfectly temperature compensated pressure transmitters. The water tank is a STI 0-2 PSI 2 wire pressure transmitter, the mash tun and boil kettle are Heisse 0-2 PSI 2 wire pressure transmitters, and false bottom presure drop differential pressure transmitter is a 2 wire 0-100" WC Mamac. I still cuise Ebay and elsewhere for parts for future system additions, and keep an eye out for suitable pressure and flow transmitters under $50 for folks interested in automation.
The trick passed to me from BeerThirty is the Simetecone drops which control foam, system also tracks temperature rise and reduces burner gas flow when temperature stops rising, and then it starts the hop addition timing for hop additions based on recipe entries.

 

[jcdillin]

Nice, thanks!

So you are measuring the pressure drop under the false bottom to compensate for the pump suction?

 

[CodeRage]

The sensors are stainless steel wet sensors with a 2 wire 4-20MA loop powered interface. I will have to lookup the make and model numbers and let you know what they were. What is interesting is no one has tried to make a liquid isolator with saran wrap sandwiched between plastic flanges. Glue sensor on one side and connect wet pressure on other side, if there are no air leaks on sensor it should work well. We use same principal to isolate hazardous chemicals from pressure devices in industry, but I have not used them for this low a pressure range before.
With a negative offset value applied to signal, density correction formula for temperature compensation, and time scaled SG factor, the freescale sensors should be fairly close most of the time.

Where I work we tried ssomething like this, it was to protect the sumbersable pressure sensor from lightning strikes. If I remember correctly these were 15 PSIg PITs. They worked okay but accuracy was always an issue. Any air in the system and temperature changes would hose the calibration. They ended up dropping the design.

 

[kladue]

I went with mounting the sensors below the tanks and graded the lines up to the connection to let air bubbles out. By applying a negative offset the sensors outputs are compensated for static head at zero level in keg. The freescale sensors are interesting, price is right, but there needs to be an isolator for sensor to keep water out. I have been looking for a cheap method of building an isolator, the low pressure level switches for dishwashers and washing machines are canidates for isolators, remove switch and epoxy sensor to upper half after sealing other holes. The larger diaphragm area should make response fairly good, and if mounted below heat area with connecion up to vent air it should work reasonably well.

 

[jcdillin]

I've mounted my sensors above the water line so that the water can never reach the sensor. But I do like the idea of the isolator, that would be nice to keep the sensor near the vessel without needing much tubing.

 

[kladue]

Here is a possible method to isolate the sensor from liquid when mounted below the kettle level. take 24"+ of 1/4" od tubing and make a 3"-4" multi turn vertical coil to stop liquid while trapped air ahead of liquid is compressed against sensor. If made with translucent tube it could be monitored for liquid fill and drained when liquid approaches sensor. If kept away from heat sources it should make a cheap way to isolate the Freescale sensors mounted below kettle outlet that is reasonably stable.

 

[jcdillin]

Good idea, that would work well.

 

[kladue]

Take a 4" pvc pipe cap and coil the tubing inside, drill 1/4" holes to feed tubing in/out, drill back and bolt to frame. That should make a clean way to handle tubing and mounting to brew frame with some sheilding of the tubing.

 

[kladue]

I have finally got around to building a replacement for the SS boiler in the Phase 2 system, this one is 6 -16'8" coils for 100' total tube length.http://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/Boiler02#5463697378793300258 Tubing was tight wound around 2-1/2" PVC pipe then the coils were spread by uncoiling over a piece of 1" PVC to get 1-1/2" spread between coils. Then all six coils were meshed and a piece of 1/2" copper was placed in center and coils were spread and 1/2" copper pipe was used to keep coils apart. Modified 5/8" swagelok cap was fit to the bottom and silver soldered with 56% silver braze to hold tubes in place. Top was assembled with identical swagelok fitting and silver brazed so there would be no solder failure if outlet temperature went over 425 degrees. Finished boiler is slightly under 6" OD and about 24" tall, should be able to hit strike temps at 1 GPM now. When I get this installed in the new system there is enough instrumentation on water, fuel, and temperatures to record performance and efficiency when I run the system.

 

[jcdillin]

wow, thats impressive

 

[GreenMonti]

Oh, Yea!! That is sweet.

Very nice work. I wonder how well your coils will stay in place? Mine moved real bad and I had to take apart my boiler and affix them so they wouldn't move again. Maybe you could silver braze the coils where they intersect each other? After the mod to mine, looking down inside I can see where it has wanted to move again. I am glad I restrained them.

I hope it works as good or better then it looks.

How tight is that first bend? Then one at the bottom. I wouldn't dream of trying to make a bend that tight. I would kink it.

 

[kladue]

Bottom bends were 90 degree bends made with rigid tubing bender to fit hole in 2-1/2" pipe for winding the tight coils. Top side was a combination of tube bender and hand tweaking.

 

[GreenMonti]

Bottom bends were 90 degree bends made with rigid tubing bender to fit hole in 2-1/2" pipe for winding the tight coils. Top side was a combination of tube bender and hand tweaking.

Nice. Do you think I would have any problems using the Oatey brand solder? It melts at 415-455 degrees. I found an old jar of LA-CO flux and I have already tried to solder bass with it. It works very well. I don't think I will buy another tin of the #95 tinning flux. That LA-CO is nice flux.

 

[kladue]

I used the Safety Silv 56% silver braze, not cheap $35 with stay silv flux, but it will not melt below 1,200 degrees. The Silva brite 100 is a good 425 degree solder, use no korode or laco paste flux and it should be okay. You will have to wash off the petroleum binder and residue after though, hot water and liquid dish detergent usually gets the job done.

 

[GreenMonti]

I used the Safety Silv 56% silver braze, not cheap $35 with stay silv flux, but it will not melt below 1,200 degrees. The Silva brite 100 is a good 425 degree solder, use no korode or laco paste flux and it should be okay. You will have to wash off the petroleum binder and residue after though, hot water and liquid dish detergent usually gets the job done.

That beats my Silvaloy 15. I paid about twice that. I didn't mutter too loudly though as the retail on it was $130. I have the Utraflux (White) by Wolverine to go with my Silvaloy for brass. I'll do a test and see how well it will braze together for me.

 

[ILOVEBEER]

That blows me away!!! Very nice....not that it is important but I would guesstimate 8k invested atleast......regardless it is very nice

 

[InfernoBrews]

Dam!!! I Thought i Had Issues! VERY NICE..

 

[kladue]

The system is about 60% done, still to go are fermentation rack for 6 carboys with individual temperature control, malt measuring system over hopper, and cleaning system for carboys and bottles. Still have the interior finish to do, planning to fiberglass the floor under the brewing equipment so spills run to floor drain,insulate and sheet rock walls, add 2 basin utility sink, heat and AC equipment, lighting. The Phase 2 is another prototype gas burning system designed for indoors use. The next system under design will be 2 vessel system with different automation and process control devices for a lower initial cost to build, and smaller footprint, probably a gas electric hybrid design.

 

[ILOVEBEER]

I am curious about one thing......do you brew as a hobby only or as a professional who built a pilot brew system to introduce new beer to his line?

 

[ClaudiusB]

The system is about 60% done,

Great to hear your are getting closer to the finish line

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

 

[kladue]

I brew as a hobby and did quite well in competitons when I have entered, but I like to build things and this system is an attempt to automate a homebrew scale sized system like the commercial breweries I have worked at. The current control software is an amalgam of recipe construction, process control functions, and data recording and graphing. You can build the recipe and use the resulting values for generation of brewing process control, monitor the process for safety exceptions and shutdown if necessary, log system variables, and graphing of process variables. Since I am developing the software code along with design and build of the hardware, I can incorporate features as I find need for them and then simulate system operation for testing of code for function before going live.

 

[diatonic]

First: Mad props on the sweet system. I've got huge respect for your fab skills & industrial process knowledge.

My only experience working with steam has been with saturated steam in nuclear power plants... and I've never worked with superheated steam. I saw that you tossed out 425F as an achievable temp with your flash boiler... which I think water has a saturation pressure of around 250-300 psi. Without traps in the design to handle condensate is there a risk of developing these pressures in your coil and bursting it? I didn't think soft copper could operate at those temperatures/pressures.

Again, not trying to discount the design, mainly just asking because I know you've worked with superheated steam. You build seems like one that would have a traditional boiler with steam jacketed kettles .