Phase 2 brewery build progress shots

[comp]

Seriously....just when I think I am getting the hang of all this crazy jargon....you come out with a thread like this...filled with words I have never even fathomed.....

Back to the damn drawing board....

Oh, and a pretty stellar rig at that!

tons is over my head

 

[kladue]

I started all grain with a gott cooler mash tun, 7.5 gallon enameled pot, and a 5 gallon bucket with a dip tube and valve. Then i built the old steam rims system http://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/OldBrewingSystem and worked the bugs out of steam injection to recirculating wort. Now I have just about completed the automated steam rims system that should make it possible to do other brewday chores while the computer takes care of all the steps. This is not a technicaly difficult project for me as this is the type of work that i have done for quite a few years. The most difficult part has been the software code needed to operate the legacy (Old) Opto 22 plc hardware, still having a problem with GUI values not updating while I/O is running in the Java application, point binding looks right but points update once only.

 

[kladue]

Here are a couple of the control program GUI's that will be in use for this system Picasa Web Albums - Kevin - Brew System GUIS

 

[John Beere]

You should consider buying a membership to the site. If you did, you could see the private thread on the GUI I'm finalizing now for my HERMs system...

 

[kladue]

What I/O hardware are going to use, and how many points?

 

[John Beere]

LabJack U3-HV

16 Flexible I/O (Digital Input, Digital Output, or Analog Input)
Up to 2 Timers (Pulse Timing, PWM Output, Quadrature Input, ...)
Up to 2 Counters (32-Bits Each)
4 Additional Digital I/O
Up to 16 12-bit Analog Inputs (0-2.4 V or 0-3.6 V, SE or Diff.)
2 Analog Outputs (10-Bit, 0-5 volts)
Supports SPI, I2C, and Asynchronous Serial Protocols (Master Only)
Supports Software or Hardware Timed Acquisition
Maximum Input Stream Rate of 2.5-50 kHz (Depending on Resolution)

 

[kladue]

Do you plan on purchasing the interface modules or are you trying to engineer the necessary interface circuitry to use thermocouples or rtd's to measure temperatures.

 

[John Beere]

What you are trying to automate is more advanced than what my app is designed to do, but it is somewhat similar. My app is specific to mashing and the boil.

I am not using thermocouples. Instead, I'm using the highly accurate temperature probes LabJack is reselling which read 10mv per degree - makes calculation very simple. The app controls six solid state relays.

I am now working with a friend who is an electrical engineer to create a specialized amplifier to properly be able to read a PH electrode as its output impedance is extremely high.

 

[kladue]

Ph probes generate a voltage in response to solution Ph (Hydrogen Ions), but you need a temperature compensation circuit to compensate for voltage increase with temperature. Watch for a Ph probe with built in pre-amp as that would save a lot of time and engineering, still would need temp compensation to correct probe output that would work with rtd's. Most of the Ph & ORP probes i have worked with use 100, 1000, or 3000 ohm rtd's for built in temperature sensor.

 

[John Beere]

Thank you for the info. I have talked with one other engineer who has pulled this off, but I am not an electrical engineer - although I can write one hell of an algorithm... so I am confident I will be able to tackle this. I'm not ready to publically post the app but I'll PM you a few screenshots.

 

[kladue]

You might consider looking for a ph transmitter on ebay that has all the necessary circuitry and outputs a voltage or current signal. How are you doing your application? What language, and have you had to custom write the whole thing? Our next step is to load the application on the touch screen panel pc mounted in the panel door and connect it to the site wireless network. Future software enhancements include making the integrated panel PC a server for a custom Java applet that shows the status of the hardware. Web served to any PC with internet connection. Additionaly, we are considering the addition of a networked security camera to observe the system remotely.

 

[John Beere]

Thanks for the info. I sent you a Private Message... The GUI was written and compiled in VB. The API to the device was provided by LabJack. I built a dedicated MiniITX / Atom based PC that my test bed is running from. I haven't got to it yet, but it will definitely be web-enabled for realtime monitoring.

It seems as if you are trying to automate the entire brewery where my app only automates the mash - although I pretty much have the rest of my brewery automated if you look through the projects in my signature...

 

[John Beere]

Ph probes generate a voltage in response to solution Ph (Hydrogen Ions), but you need a temperature compensation circuit to compensate for voltage increase with temperature. Watch for a Ph probe with built in pre-amp as that would save a lot of time and engineering, still would need temp compensation to correct probe output that would work with rtd's. Most of the Ph & ORP probes i have worked with use 100, 1000, or 3000 ohm rtd's for built in temperature sensor.

I'm sorry to hijack your thread. LabJack actually has two different amps they sell but here is their response from my query on if they would work with a PH electrode.

"The LJTIA uses the AD623 from Analog Devices which has an input impedance of 2 Gohms and input bias current of 17 nA. The PGA204 used on the EI-1040 shows 10 Gohms and 0.5 nA.

So the LJTIA is pretty close to the EI-1040, but I am not real confident that either would work."

Any thoughts?

Somebody by this man a membership already!

 

[kladue]

I will have to check the manuals for the rosemount and abb ph transmitters to see what the circuit specs are for the ph probe pre amps and get back to you. Have you obtained a ph probe yet?, or are you still shopping. Nice looking application you have there, i am in this as a hobby and have no interest in going beyond keg mods and gadgets for club members.

 

[John Beere]

I don't know where it will lead at this point - I just like to keep my options open. No, I haven't yet purchased a probe but I have researched several to the best of my abilities - which are limited. For now, beta #1 will just have a placeholder for the PH probe, but I would really like to add it so its statistics can be tracked along with the rest of the info that is collected.

**EDIT** here is the probe that I was looking at: http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=5900165

 

[kladue]

It would be a bit easier to obtain a probe-transmitter combination as calibration and a reasonably accurate result would be possible without a lot of engineering effort. When you get the probe installed there are two things to consider, will the probe tip dry out (not good) and can the probe be removed and the tip stored in the silver chloride salt solution to maintain cell conductivity when not in use.

 

[kladue]

Here are a couple tables you will need if you are going to roll your own interface to the Ph Probe Picasa Web Albums - Kevin - Ph Info. As you can see from the second table the temperature of the probe influences the voltage, you would need to either build in a software routine to linearize the output or build a temperature compensation circuit. Good luck with your project, will be interesting to see the results.

 

[John Beere]

Thank you for the info! Since I will know the exact mash temp, I believe I can create an algorithm that takes it all into consideration. I just emailed this info to the engineer as well - will keep you posted on our progress.

 

[kladue]

Here are a few shots of the self contained cooling system for the phase 2 brewery project Picasa Web Albums - Kevin - Cooling system. The water chillers are sunroc 6 gph remote water fountain chillers from a building remodel project, circulated with a march MDXT-3 pump. The circulaing system serves both counterflow chiller and future carboy cooling system planned for phase 3 of the brewery build. Next step is to wake the frankenstein brewing system and tune the boiler and steam mixer PID loops before mash test run. The software is the holdup as it is being modified to incorporate code for sequential brewing (mashing next batch while boiling previous batch) and including interlocks to prevent surprises.

 

[slnies]

Kladue,
That there be an excellent idea for cooling. I, myself was planning something similar using a dehumidifier to chill a tank of coolant and then build jackets for my carboys or fermenters, but the water fountain chiller idea is a stroke of brilliance. Thanks for the insight. S.

 

[whitehotdawn]

What made you choose to use an inline steam mixer over a manifold within the boil kettle? I'm in the process of building an electric system in which steam will be used to heat the mash and I'm trying to decide which direction to go. Also, what is the diffuser that you are using for your steam? Thanks.

 

[kladue]

Well, 5 years ago I built the predecessor to the phase 2 system and refined the steam injection into circulating wort process. Here is a picture of the new mixerPicasa Web Albums - Kevin - New system st..., steam comes through tube to exit through screen wire diffuser into wort flowing over screen, steam condenses and raises liquid temperature. The state of the art when the old system was built was the direct injection of steam into the mash tun or electric element rims systems. Both methods had control and quality issues so I went and copied the industrial steam into liquid injection system to greatly increase the amount of heat that could be introduced to wort without overheating the liquid. The old system is able to give you a 35 degree temperature rise across the mixer at 50 GPH flow with outlet temperature of 156 deg. F.. The same flash boiler provides strike water, steam for steps, and sparge water, only drawback is constant attention to gas flow control for temperature control. If you look through the public gallery you should find pictures of the old system which breaks down to components that hang on garage wall.

 

[whitehotdawn]

How do you control the flow of steam in your inline system (do you use a solenoid valve)? To control the temperature of the wort are you adjusting the wort's flow rate as well. More to the point, what variables are being adjusted to reach the desired temperature of the wort?

Did you purchase your screen diffuser or was that something that you made?

 

[kladue]

In the steam injection system the wort and water flow to the boiler are constant, the burner firing rate is adjusted to control steam generation and mixer temperature. If one used a steam source you could use a needle valve to control flow to the diffuser screen to control temperature, manually not expensive, proportional needle valve might be a bit pricey for automatic control. The diffuser is stainless screen wire rolled over a 1/8" rod and silver soldered to the end of a 1/4" tube which is inserted in a 1/2" tube carrying the wort.

 

[onejdn]

Damn, I'm impressed. I am thinking of building a system soon and was trying to decide on which one to build...now I'm really confused. Awesome

 

[kladue]

Ther have been a few more changes to the exhaust system to boost exhaust flow to handle vapor from boil kettle. Working on electrical and plumbing systems to prep inside for insulation and sheetrock next, then back to final loop tuning and first grain run. System is still ugly without insulation and SS keggle covering, that is the next project after interior prep for cold weather.

 

[sully]

i laughed out loud at the willy wonka machine comment, that was great made my day and i would love to have one, but i am a framer and not an electrician i dont know anything about it.

 

[brianwent2work]

That would be a 10 in my book. thanks for the idea, even tho i never could

 

[kladue]

Almost finished with automatic operation software and GUI, testing, and tuning last of pid loops, then on to a test run with malt. Last item to build and automate is hop addition hardware, building second panel with touch screen and more opto hardware to control hop additions and fermenter temperature. Second panel pushes point count to around 60 analog/digital points which should be enough for now.

 

[brianwent2work]

do you have any new pictures or video. thanks.