Oxygenation and lag time

[slugsly]

At what point do yeast unilize oxygen? For example using dry lager yeast in my last batch fermentation didn't get going for 36 hours. I can't imagine all the oxygen wasn't out of solution by that time. Does it make more sense to oxygenate later into the processes or does yeast bind oxygen long before I'd see activity?

 

[slugsly]

No opinions on this?

 

[BrewerBrad82]

Oxygen should always be added before you pitch yeast, or right after you pitch yeast. The yeast require oxygen to multiply/divide during the lag phase. Once the yeast have built up their numbers and have depleted the oxygen they switch over into the active fermentation phase. If you add oxygen too late in the fermentation, you are only going to cause oxidation and have some pretty bad off-flavors. My guess is that the 36 hour lag time is much more likely due to underpitching yeast; lagers require roughly twice the amount of yeast cells than their ale counterparts.

 

[benzesp]

https://www.wyeastlab.com/he-yeast-fundamentals.cfm

Search 'Lag phase'.


If you introduce 02 later on in the process you could contaminate or oxidize your beer since the yeast have divided and are in consumption mode. I've heard of large beers that get hit with 02 during various stages of fermentation but they are adding yeast and sugars as well.

 

[slugsly]

Disregarding my specific example even with a healthy starter and with the proper amount of yeast active fermentation won't start for many hours. Oxygen is not going to stay in solution for very long if not under pressure, less than a few hours I'd think. So what is the point of oxygenating at the same time as pitching?

 

[benzesp]

Depends on the size of diffusion. If your just splashing, yea you wont have a lot of oxygen suspended into solution for long. If you are diffusing with a diffusion stone, the small bubbles will adhere to particulate matter in the wort and stay stuck in suspension a hell of a lot longer. I guess the point is oxygenate, pitch, purge and lock it up before wild yeast can take hold.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

From the Fermentis site....

"rehydration instructions: Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or wort at 27°c ± 3°C (80°F ± 6°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes. Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.

Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F). Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes, then mix the wort using aeration or by wort addition."

....I've done it either way and have gotten good results.

 

[d3track]

They are uptaking O2 before active fermentation. They aren't just sitting there for 24 hours, they are using nutrients/O2 and multiplying and building cell walls.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

When I started oxygenating with pure O2 instead of just shaking, my lag times increased a bit. I posted a similar question at that time and several people said that O2 can increase lag time. Good news is my attenuation also improved.

 

[Bilsch]

Oxygen is not going to stay in solution for very long if not under pressure, less than a few hours I'd think.

Oxygen saturation at 68f (@msl) is right around 9ppm and that amount will stay in solution unless the pressure or temperature changes, or the yeast consumes it. Any extra over the saturation point will depart the scene.

 

[Mer-man]

Yep, so if you oxygenate and use dry yeast, that oxygen won't be consumed for many hours. In that time, it's just oxidizing various flavor components and darkening your beer.

Oxygenation should be used ideally with an active pitch of yeast that can start immediate uptake of the free O2.

 

[Vale71]

Yep, so if you oxygenate and use dry yeast, that oxygen won't be consumed for many hours. In that time, it's just oxidizing various flavor components and darkening your beer.

Oxygenation should be used ideally with an active pitch of yeast that can start immediate uptake of the free O2.

If you just pitched yeast it's still wort and not beer. Why do you think that dry yeast won't use (or at the very least uptake) oxygen right away?

 

[troxerX]

Yep, so if you oxygenate and use dry yeast, that oxygen won't be consumed for many hours. In that time, it's just oxidizing various flavor components and darkening your beer.

Oxygenation should be used ideally with an active pitch of yeast that can start immediate uptake of the free O2.

Completely agree with Mer-man, I’ve been following the Low Oxygen brewing threads and podcasts and evidence/data collected by that team has demonstrated consistently that oxygenation throughout the entire brewing process (from grain-milling, water preparation, mash, boiling, yeast pitching and packaging) can significantly oxidize delicate malt aroma and flavors. I’ve incorporated most of their recommendations and even taken it a little further — I know most of you would not believe me, but I don’t oxygenate my wort anymore, I just supply the boil with white labs servomyces nutrient and a pack of dry yeast and once the wort has cooled down I just pitch the intended yeast and wait for fermentation to start so I can dry hop. My beers have been placing in competitions consistently and have no off-flavors so I have shown that the wort really does not need oxygenation if provided with strong nutrients - just another urban legend that propagates and no one is willing to challenge....

 

[Vale71]

You guys are unbelievable. You're ready to dismiss 100 years of scientific research (serious research, not your amateurish tinkering) as "urban legend" just because your beers have been "placing in competitions". I'm out of this thread before this turns into another LODO trainwreck.

 

[troxerX]

I’ve also seen online experiments that only a few drops of olive oil are added to the wort (with no oxygenation) and that’s sufficient to provide the necessary oxygen via hydrated/saturated/unsaturated fats with no need of oxygenation to allow a healthy fermentation. Very contentious subject but some people have proven it, not a magic bullet but a demonstration that direct oxygenation of wort is really not needed...

https://www.beeradvocate.com/articl...-brewers-have-tried-adding-olive-oil-to-beer/

 

[troxerX]

You guys are unbelievable. You're ready to dismiss 100 years of scientific research (serious research, not your amateurish tinkering) as "urban legend" just because your beers have been "placing in competitions". I'm out of this thread before this turns into another LODO trainwreck.

LOL, Vale71, what I’m trying to say here is that you don’t need to provide oxygen via direct oxygenation of wort as long as you provide oxygen via other means (strong nutrients), again not dismissing the 100 years of research, just providing the oxygen via other means yeast can still utilize w/o directing oxidizing your delicate wort compounds

 

[troxerX]

Yeast is what yeast needs...

 

[VikeMan]

LOL, Vale71, what I’m trying to say here is that you don’t need to provide oxygen via direct oxygenation of wort as long as you provide oxygen via other means (strong nutrients), again not dismissing the 100 years of research, just providing the oxygen via other means yeast can still utilize w/o directing oxidizing your delicate wort compounds

Define strong nutrients. Yeast use oxygen to manufacture fatty acids and sterols with which they build cell walls. Without this, cells are unable to bud (or bud as many times as needed). Do your strong nutrients contain fatty acids or sterols?

I'm assuming you are talking about liquid yeast. Dry yeast come (theoretically anyway) with "fully loaded" cell wall materials.

 

[troxerX]

Define strong nutrients. Yeast use oxygen to manufacture fatty acids and sterols with which they build cell walls. Without this, cells are unable to bud (or bud as many times as needed). Do your strong nutrients contain fatty acids or sterols?

I'm assuming you are talking about liquid yeast. Dry yeast come (theoretically anyway) with "fully loaded" cell wall materials.

VikeMan, thanks for the inquiry. My nutrients are a good amount (but controlled, obviously) of magnesium (via magnesium sulfate) during water prep, plenty of WL servomyces (2 caps at least) and yeast (liquid or dry) added during the boil, and sometimes I’ll add some diamm-phosphate/urea after boil. I aerated my wort like everyone else. One day decided to aerate right once I saw signs of fermentation, as I’m always experimenting ways to reduce oxidation. One day as it was bound to happen, I completely forgot to aerate, got scared like everyone else will but decided to keep it as is. The brew came out of equal or better quality and we are taking about a NEIPA, been brewing for about 8 years now and 95% of my brews (and what I drink) are NEIPAs so I know them well. It is not my intent to discredit years of research. I don’t aerate my wort anymore as I have not needed it. I brew small batches (starting around 4 1/2 gals and usually end with 3 gals). I don’t splash my wort, I rack my wort once cooled to a CO2 blanketed carboy and pitch yeast almost immediately and blanket again before dropping the airlock. Somehow it works for me, and in no way I’m asking anyone to do this. This is homebrewing, to me synonym of experimentation, but too many purists around is what holds me from contributing more often to this forum.

 

[troxerX]

Define strong nutrients. Yeast use oxygen to manufacture fatty acids and sterols with which they build cell walls. Without this, cells are unable to bud (or bud as many times as needed). Do your strong nutrients contain fatty acids or sterols?

I'm assuming you are talking about liquid yeast. Dry yeast come (theoretically anyway) with "fully loaded" cell wall materials.

Additionally, like sake brewers do, I culture my yeast starters with fungal and mycelium extracts to ensure extreme yeast health, probably another reason why things work for me without direct wort aeration.

 

[Bilsch]

Completely agree with Mer-man, I’ve been following the Low Oxygen brewing threads and podcasts and evidence/data collected by that team has demonstrated consistently that oxygenation throughout the entire brewing process (from grain-milling, water preparation, mash, boiling, yeast pitching and packaging) can significantly oxidize delicate malt aroma and flavors. I’ve incorporated most of their recommendations and even taken it a little further — I know most of you would not believe me, but I don’t oxygenate my wort anymore, I just supply the boil with white labs servomyces nutrient and a pack of dry yeast and once the wort has cooled down I just pitch the intended yeast and wait for fermentation to start so I can dry hop. My beers have been placing in competitions consistently and have no off-flavors so I have shown that the wort really does not need oxygenation if provided with strong nutrients - just another urban legend that propagates and no one is willing to challenge....

Just to be perfectly clear.. none of the other low oxygen brewers do this ‘no oxygen’ thing at pitch that I am aware of. However we encourage experiments and will be looking for the results of this if any are posted.

No worries Mr Vale you can come back now.

 

[troxerX]

Just to be perfectly clear.. none of the other low oxygen brewers do this ‘no oxygen’ thing at pitch that I am aware of. However we encourage experiments and will be looking for the results of this if any are posted.

No worries Mr Vale you can come back now.

@Vale71 @VikeMan @Bilsch Just found this very recent interesting video from Lallemand (please see at 22:25) where aeration of wort is not necessary when pitching dry yeasts into a brew (1st use straight out of packet). Even for high gravity brews, aeration is a nice to have but not really needed. The funniest part is when she says “sometimes people really don’t believe that” LOL. Based on their research, dry yeast is already equipped with everything it needs for active growth with no need of aeration/oxygenation. My strategy is the same for both dry and liquid yeasts taking it a little further by providing plenty of dead yeast via the boil so I don’t ever have to aerate any of my brews independent if I use dry or liquid for fermentation. Again it works for me at homebrewing scale and I’ve demonstrated that several times already with high quality, award winning brews.

 

[VikeMan]

@Vale71 @VikeMan @Bilsch Just found this very recent interesting video from Lallemand (please see at 22:25) where aeration of wort is not necessary when pitching dry yeasts into a brew (1st use straight out of packet).

I'm not sure why you addressed this to me. I said this in post #19. (It's really not news to most dry yeast users.)

 

[Mer-man]

If you just pitched yeast it's still wort and not beer. Why do you think that dry yeast won't use (or at the very least uptake) oxygen right away?

That's definitely something that could be tested if someone had some sort of well-equipped reactor. I have been led to believe that instant brewing yeast at 1g/4L can uptake O2 in under an hour when the solution is like 40C.

My assertion is merely that the less active the yeast, the longer it will take to uptake oxygen. I.e., a slower process is a slower process. I could very well be wrong! Perhaps there's no correlation between lag phase in fermentation and oxygen uptake!

 

[Mer-man]

If you just pitched yeast it's still wort and not beer. Why do you think that dry yeast won't use (or at the very least uptake) oxygen right away?

I think legally, once you add yeast it is beer.

 

[troxerX]

I'm not sure why you addressed this to me. I said this in post #19. (It's really not news to most dry yeast users.)

My apologies, forgot you had said that

 

[MN brewer]

If u made a strong starter, with an airlock to blow off O2, and it’s done all the budding it needs to, could you add that to non aerated wort? Would that go straight to fermenting, minimizing oxygen?

 

[VikeMan]

If u made a strong starter, with an airlock to blow off O2, and it’s done all the budding it needs to, could you add that to non aerated wort? Would that go straight to fermenting, minimizing oxygen?

When you execute an appropriate sized yeast starter, it hasn't actually yet done all the budding it needs to do. The resulting yeast will still need to go through some more propagation in the beer wort. (Think of the difference between the amount of yeast in a finished starter and the amount of yeast after the main fermentation.)