Oxidation Risk During Sparging?

[Vale71]

Isn't that, essentially, what I said in my previous post?-

"Why don't breweries, which have to make a profit to survive in an increasingly competitive market, use LODO as a marketing tool? I'm cynical enough to assume that they, perhaps correctly, have decided that consumers wouldn't care."

You said they wouldn't care. I'm even more cynical than you are and assume most of them won't even understand what's being said, and that's setting aside the fact that you cannot really pack such a complicated message in a ten-word slogan anyway.

 

[grampamark]

We're splitting hairs. Oh, wait...

 

[Vale71]

We're splitting hairs.

Ain't it fun?

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Some of you have watched too many episodes of "House" and it shows....

RDWHAHB

 

[bob1852]

Do you think that Coors or Miller could really explain in a 12-second commercial the benefits of LODO to a customer base 90% of whom probably have no clue what oxidation or even oxygen are?

The "just malt, hops and pure spring water" motto is much catchier and has an excellent track record as it's been fooling consumers in Germany for over half a millenium now.

#cornsyrupwars

 

[mongoose33]

You didn't answer my question (but, nice testimonial to your own experience).

Why don't breweries, which have to make a profit to survive in an increasingly competitive market, use LODO as a marketing tool? I'm cynical enough to assume that they, perhaps correctly, have decided that consumers wouldn't care. I'm also aware that most commercial breweries do take pains to reduce or eliminate oxygenation during packaging, which is the point where it probably has the greatest benefit, and assume that since it's a widespread method there's no benefit as a marketing angle (although one could assume the same about the corn/rice non event).

To me it seems that, within the homebrewing community, the debate is between a few converts and a few skeptics; the rest of us are pretty indifferent. This does make for some entertaining moments on message boards, however.

Marketing is largely about getting consumers to see their values realized in the consumption of a product.

It's often, some might say completely, about emotion. LODO doesn't really fit the imagery, the values, that those marketing beer try to tap into.

Reminds me of the old beer commercial where you tap your beer twice on the bar and suddenly bikini-clad women show up ready to party.

I think a LODO argument might be made to the craft brew crowd, probably effectively too. But not Joe Sixpack.

My 2 cents.

 

[Blazinlow86]

In my opinion I assume that lodo brewing does make a difference however I'm not setup for it therefore don't do it and have been satisfied with my beers as is. It's like everything with advanced Brewing. 1 technique may not make a huge difference on its own but 20 advanced techniques most definitely do. Additionally until you actually try doing those advanced techniques you won't know what your missing. Cheers

 

[grampamark]

I think a LODO argument might be made to the craft brew crowd, probably effectively too. But not Joe Sixpack.

Since this isn't "Lightbeertalk.com" I assumed most readers would recognize that I was referring to craft beer drinkers in my comments about marketing.

I was thinking specifically about the folks who write lengthy reviews on Untappd, Ratebeer, etc. Those people always sound more pretentious than knowledgeable to me. Exactly the type who would be receptive to a marketing pitch stressing high quality.

There are beer geeks, beer nerds and beer snobs. The geeks just like beer, the nerds grok the sciencey bits, sometimes to the exclusion of all else, and the snobs simply know stuff that mere mortals can't possibly comprehend.

All three are pretty evenly distributed among the regulars around here, it seems.

 

[Vale71]

Since this isn't "Lightbeertalk.com" I assumed most readers would recognize that I was referring to craft beer drinkers in my comments about marketing.

In that case I change my answer to "they don't do it because it would be a blatant lie". True LODO, not the travesty the LODO cult is trying to push here, is awfully expensive and beyond the reach of most craft breweries except maybe the largest ones and even then the costs might outweigh the returns by a wide margin.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I've brewed a Czech pilsner with LODO that is just unbelievable in the flavors that are released. Here's the funny thing: I don't care for it all that much.

That is basically my experience. LoDo definitely makes a difference. I enjoyed the process - I like following strict processes and meeting or exceeding guidelines - but I just didn't like the beer as much (even though technically it's probably better beer). I now follow very tight processes on the cold side and really like the beer from that process - it's fresher and brighter than my packaged beer used to be. But, interestingly, in split batches with some fermented in HDPE buckets without closed transfer (oxidised) and some fermented in kegs using pressurised closed loop transfer (with some active yeast left on transfer to scavenge yeast), about half of my mates who drink my beer prefer the oxidised version (they are quite different beers). So, oxidation doesn't necessarily change things for the worse, it's a personal preference thing. In my split batches above, the keg ferment versions have fresh tasting hops and flavours where you can pick each of the individual malts. The HDPE version is a bit sweeter tasting (despite similar FG) with sort of blended notes of caramel and toffee. At least that's how I'd describe it with my somewhat poor palate!

 

[Dog House Brew]

You want the same company who advertises their beer with dogs, horses, and american flags to talk about the actual beer in their ads? Really?

Best thing to do is try it yourself. It's not that hard... Pre-boil your strike water, add the recommended sulfite dose, cool it to strike temp, underlet the mash, stir it good once, use a mash cap. After 15 minutes take a sample and taste it. You'll know right away if you got it right. If you didn't get it you missed something in the process and need to review it and try it again. All this is well documented.

A lot of naysayers likes to throw around confirmation bias as an explanation, and i get it. But in this instance the difference in the wort flavor is so stark when you get it right that it's beyond confirmation bias.

There is a legitimate question of preference though. Do YOU prefer it? Only the drinker can decide that for themselves. You can legitimately not like a beer with low oxygen process and that's fine. My personal experience is that I prefer all my beers low oxygen now. It was the key change in my process that took my lagers to the next level and my IPAs are friggin epic now. Still amazes me every time i take a sip that i wasted 7 years of home brewing making mediocre IPAs when the only thing i had to change was excluding oxygen from the mash and keg.

Great explanation, I agree that it makes a difference. Easily discernible, but at the same time, I get people not caring about the subtleties. To each his own I guess. My beers have greatly improved since following the process.

 

[Dog House Brew]

That is basically my experience. LoDo definitely makes a difference. I enjoyed the process - I like following strict processes and meeting or exceeding guidelines - but I just didn't like the beer as much (even though technically it's probably better beer). I now follow very tight processes on the cold side and really like the beer from that process - it's fresher and brighter than my packaged beer used to be. But, interestingly, in split batches with some fermented in HDPE buckets without closed transfer (oxidised) and some fermented in kegs using pressurised closed loop transfer (with some active yeast left on transfer to scavenge yeast), about half of my mates who drink my beer prefer the oxidised version (they are quite different beers). So, oxidation doesn't necessarily change things for the worse, it's a personal preference thing. In my split batches above, the keg ferment versions have fresh tasting hops and flavours where you can pick each of the individual malts. The HDPE version is a bit sweeter tasting (despite similar FG) with sort of blended notes of caramel and toffee. At least that's how I'd describe it with my somewhat poor palate!

Interesting thanks

 

[schematix]

Great explanation, I agree that it makes a difference. Easily discernible, but at the same time, I get people not caring about the subtleties. To each his own I guess. My beers have greatly improved since following the process.

Yah i get that people have preferences.

For example I hate sour beers. Every one I’ve ever had was an instant drain pour. But I don’t deny they exist because I don’t like them.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

For example I hate sour beers.

I was going to deride you for that comment, then I remembered I hate NEIPA's (well, actually just 'don't particularly like' - hates a bit too strong a word). I know I'll probably be ousted from the homebrew community for saying that.

 

[Bobby_M]

First, the caveat that what I'm about to say is not in support or against the entire LODO universe. Psychology is very interesting.

If you look at what the folks at Brulosophy are doing, you get two very different reactions. First, the staunch supporters will quote their results every time the topic comes up as if it seals the deal on the subject. Others will dismiss all their results because they are not scientific enough, the sample size is too small, the controls are too loose, they didn't repeat the experiment enough times. If they get results that match classic pro brewing literature, that too will be dismissed as only applying to large batches. You can't have it both ways. The funding for rigorous studies are going to come from production breweries. Who is going to pay for that level of scrutiny for small homebrew batches? All I'm saying is if their methods and results are BS, please show them how it's done and start experimenting, collecting data and publish YOUR results so we have a bigger data set.

I let a lot of people taste my beer and have been competing a lot lately and I'm proud to get a lot of positive feedback both casually and in the form of medals. The very next thing that happens is that people struggling with their process or otherwise not happy with their own brewing results start asking me what I'm doing differently. That's a really hard thing to answer in a short conversation because "different" is certainly relative. I spend time finding out what they do for recipe choices, water source, water mods, hot side, cold side, packaging, etc. and offer all the different ways I deal with it. 99% of the time the reaction I get is "jeez, that's a lot of work, money......... eh, I don't care THAT much".

Long story short, it's not any one particular category of focus that makes all the difference. You can get away with a LOT of less than ideal methods and still make beer that you find drinkable.

 

[Soulshine2]

#cornsyrupwars

I think its a waste of time to compare Coors ,Budweiser and Miller to anything we're all brewing.
We've all found our way here by the enjoyment of a homebrewed beer, whether it be a clone or one-off recipe. We all have our own little ways ,quirks and methods of reaching said homebrewed beer in our own homes,garages,driveways and basements. You do you and your beer, I'll do mine and my beer.
I'd like to do a side by side of a AG (kettle and tun) beer,a BIAB beer , an extract and a LODO of the same exact beer, can it be done? Maybe. Just to see or taste the actual difference. The variant would be the level of technology ,the water chemistry and of course the individual brewer themselves. lets throw keg vs bottles of the same batches too...why not ,right?
we could all sit around and drink each others beers and talk about politics ,climate change ,sports teams and whether or not the earth is flat.

 

[mongoose33]

Best thing to do is try it yourself. It's not that hard... Pre-boil your strike water, add the recommended sulfite dose, cool it to strike temp, underlet the mash, stir it good once, use a mash cap. After 15 minutes take a sample and taste it. You'll know right away if you got it right. If you didn't get it you missed something in the process and need to review it and try it again. All this is well documented.

Well said.

A lot of naysayers likes to throw around confirmation bias as an explanation, and i get it. But in this instance the difference in the wort flavor is so stark when you get it right that it's beyond confirmation bias.

I believe there's a significant dissonance thing among many of those who argue against lodo, besides the fact that many of those don't know what they're talking about.

We all have invested time, effort, money, and attention to fine tuning our brewing processes to produce decent beer. The learning curve, sometimes, is long. To accept that LODO might be a thing, and then potentially adopt it, we'd have to accept/admit that the time, effort, money, and attention we put into where we are now is a wasted, sunk cost, as there may be a better way.

I felt that to some extent when I tried BIAB. I'd spent all this time dialing in my system with a traditional mash tun, getting temps right, and so on, and now you say there's an easier way? What about all that knowledge I developed? I just have to throw that away?

Then there's the tacit, perhaps unconscious, awareness that there *will* be a learning curve with any new approach. I personally find that somewhat painful, and I have to acknowledge that with a new approach my beer, the first time or two, might not be excellent. That pain is, fortunately, balanced against the joy of learning something new.

Is it the case that this dissonance, in many of the anti-LODO crowd choosing to denigrate LODO, is their psychologically more satisfying conclusion? If one can deny its validity, then one doesn't have to change anything!

There is a legitimate question of preference though. Do YOU prefer it? Only the drinker can decide that for themselves. You can legitimately not like a beer with low oxygen process and that's fine. My personal experience is that I prefer all my beers low oxygen now. It was the key change in my process that took my lagers to the next level and my IPAs are friggin epic now. Still amazes me every time i take a sip that i wasted 7 years of home brewing making mediocre IPAs when the only thing i had to change was excluding oxygen from the mash and keg.

Some of my beer has also been, to use your term, Epic. But some flavors haven't been all that enjoyable. I've brewed a Czech pils with a punch of flavor unlike anything I've ever experienced. Others raved about it, too. But I don't care for it all that much.

It's sort of like the oxidized beer thing--some cannot easily perceive oxidation so they may say "it doesn't matter." Well, it doesn't--to them. Same, I believe, with LODO approaches. It produces a very different beer, with very different flavors in some cases. But that may not be a good thing, depending on one's palate. We like what we like.

If someone has tried LODO beers and the flavors just don't ring their bell, then they're drawing a conclusion from a position of knowledge. I'm ok with that. I don't like Belgians, that's just a personal preference thing.

But when people oppose the technique when they have no direct knowledge of it...well, there's only one reason for that behavior that makes sense to me.

 

[bobeer]

I'm trying to figure out a trip to Germany to taste what is sometimes called the "It" factor in German beers. I want to see what they produce, and compare it to what I can do.

I think the "It factor" in traditional German lagers comes from decoction mashing combined with the water source. Decoction mashing produces caramelized sugars from boiling the thick mash and creates a nice, flavorful, rich malt profile. Personally the proof is the in pudding for me... I'd rather decoction mash my beer over lodo but I can see why people would be willing to experiment with it.

 

[mongoose33]

I think the "It factor" in traditional German lagers comes from decoction mashing combined with the water source. Decoction mashing produces caramelized sugars from boiling the thick mash and creates a nice, flavorful, rich malt profile. Personally the proof is the in pudding for me... I'd rather decoction mash my beer over lodo but I can see why people would be willing to experiment with it.

Interesting.

W/R/T the trip to Europe, for me the major reason is to try those German beers in situ, and see what it's all about. I've never done a decoction brew, but now you have me intrigued.

Darn. This weekend I had planned to brew a hazy IPA, using my new method of hop additions to the fermenter. Now you have me thinking about this.

 

[kh54s10]

I am not against LODO. I may try it some day, but at present it is not worth the expense of some items to do or the time.

But this is the impression that I get from some of you in the LODO crowd:

If you don't brew LODO you are just inferior.

 

[grampamark]

I think the "It factor" in traditional German lagers comes from decoction mashing combined with the water source. Decoction mashing produces caramelized sugars from boiling the thick mash and creates a nice, flavorful, rich malt profile. Personally the proof is the in pudding for me... I'd rather decoction mash my beer over lodo but I can see why people would be willing to experiment with it.

I've never been to Germany, but I live in Montana, where there is a real German brewery (Bayern Brewing in Missoula). They only brew German beer styles and use traditional methods. Both the owner and brewmaster emigrated from Germany where they both had apprenticed at the same brewery.

Most, if not all, of the lagers Bayern brews are decoction mashed. One, a seasonal Doppelbock called Faceplant, uses double decoction mashing. If I had to pick only one beer as the best craft beer I’ve ever had I would probably pick Faceplant.

All of Bayern's beers have a depth of flavor that I haven't experienced in other, more "Americanized" craft beers. None of their beers are highly hopped so the flavors come from the malt and the process. Good stuff.

 

[bobeer]

I've never been to Germany, but I live in Montana, where there is a real German brewery (Bayern Brewing in Missoula). They only brew German beer styles and use traditional methods. Both the owner and brewmaster emigrated from Germany where they both had apprenticed at the same brewery.

Most, if not all, of the lagers Bayern brews are decoction mashed. One, a seasonal Doppelbock called Faceplant, uses double decoction mashing. If I had to pick only one beer as the best craft beer I’ve ever had I would probably pick Faceplant.

All of Bayern's beers have a depth of flavor that I haven't experienced in other, more "Americanized" craft beers. None of their beers are highly hopped so the flavors come from the malt and the process. Good stuff.

That is good stuff. I have yet to find a local brewery here that does decoction mashing. There's a German style brewery in town that would be the most obvious to practice it but I've only been there once and wasn't overly impressed with the beer. I just assume they don't but I'll have to ask if I ever find myself in there again. There's a lot of small nano's here and it would be interesting to see if any of them do this lodo stuff or what they have to say about it.

A double decocted dopplebock sounds awesome! I love a good decocted Helles myself!

 

[mongoose33]

I am not against LODO. I may try it some day, but at present it is not worth the expense of some items to do or the time.

But this is the impression that I get from some of you in the LODO crowd:
View attachment 622505 If you don't brew LODO you are just inferior.

I agree, there are some who make it appear that you're either LODO, or a loon for not doing it. And that's too bad, I've had a lot of great beer that wasn't produced that way. Further, there's a time and money and effort cost to doing it, and it isn't always clear if it's worth that additional cost.

I'm still somewhat on the fence about it. It makes the brew day longer, and I miss the days of the simplicity and brevity of a good ol' BIAB beer. I want to do a side-by-side comparison, trying to figure out how to best do that with my electric system--and then ferment in a bigmouth bubbler instead of my Spike CF10.

And, of course, it seems to matter less with darker beers; the lighter ones (lagers, etc) seem to produce a more obvious effect. Whether you like that effect...different question.

Still in process....

 

[Spikybits]

I've never been to Germany, but I live in Montana, where there is a real German brewery (Bayern Brewing in Missoula). They only brew German beer styles and use traditional methods. Both the owner and brewmaster emigrated from Germany where they both had apprenticed at the same brewery.

Most, if not all, of the lagers Bayern brews are decoction mashed. One, a seasonal Doppelbock called Faceplant, uses double decoction mashing. If I had to pick only one beer as the best craft beer I’ve ever had I would probably pick Faceplant.

All of Bayern's beers have a depth of flavor that I haven't experienced in other, more "Americanized" craft beers. None of their beers are highly hopped so the flavors come from the malt and the process. Good stuff.

Bayern's great - slow pour pils all day. Go Grizz!

 

[bierhaus15]

My 2 cents: American equivalents of German beer styles most often have over-exaggerated flavor profiles. German brewers are largely not looking to make hugely flavorful beer by US standards and they have a very narrow range to develop nuance and balance. In that regard, lowdo brewing is useful in that you can achieve balance and complexity from using simple ingredients.

That said, I do not agree with all of the lowdo methods (K/SMB use) or the magical results people claim on the home brew scale, but the elimination of 02 in brewing process is a good thing. There is no reason one cannot see a benefit from reducing 02 beer exposure, especially on the cold side.

Finally, on my last work trip to Germany, I visited a large state owned lowdo brewery that makes a well regarded pils available here in the states and produce the same beer for sale in discount stores, available in 500 ml PET bottles (under a different brand). Both liquids were produced from the same ingredients, on the same lowdo equipment. Same TPO spec. One tastes great and the other is pretty meh. The difference is that one is fermented long and cool and the other warm and fast. In simplest terms, the best lowdo process won't solve the issues of subpar fermentation and 99% of the time, I think people would see more immediate benefits from a dialed in fermentation/yeast handling process than a switch to lowdo mashing/boiling alone.

 

[eric19312]

Am I wrong or is the easiest way to try LODO beer is to buy a six pack of pretty much any one of the BMC offereings? Especially Bud Miller Coors flagship products? These are all supposed to be LODO right?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Am I wrong or is the easiest way to try LODO beer is to buy a six pack of pretty much any one of the BMC offereings? Especially Bud Miller Coors flagship products? These are all supposed to be LODO right?

Fresh Weihenstephaner.

BMC is filtered, stripping the flavor.

 

[lump42]

Well this has been a fun and fruitless round of rehashing the same arguments from both sides....

 

[Blazinlow86]

First, the caveat that what I'm about to say is not in support or against the entire LODO universe. Psychology is very interesting.

If you look at what the folks at Brulosophy are doing, you get two very different reactions. First, the staunch supporters will quote their results every time the topic comes up as if it seals the deal on the subject. Others will dismiss all their results because they are not scientific enough, the sample size is too small, the controls are too loose, they didn't repeat the experiment enough times. If they get results that match classic pro brewing literature, that too will be dismissed as only applying to large batches. You can't have it both ways. The funding for rigorous studies are going to come from production breweries. Who is going to pay for that level of scrutiny for small homebrew batches? All I'm saying is if their methods and results are BS, please show them how it's done and start experimenting, collecting data and publish YOUR results so we have a bigger data set.

I let a lot of people taste my beer and have been competing a lot lately and I'm proud to get a lot of positive feedback both casually and in the form of medals. The very next thing that happens is that people struggling with their process or otherwise not happy with their own brewing results start asking me what I'm doing differently. That's a really hard thing to answer in a short conversation because "different" is certainly relative. I spend time finding out what they do for recipe choices, water source, water mods, hot side, cold side, packaging, etc. and offer all the different ways I deal with it. 99% of the time the reaction I get is "jeez, that's a lot of work, money......... eh, I don't care THAT much".

Long story short, it's not any one particular category of focus that makes all the difference. You can get away with a LOT of less than ideal methods and still make beer that you find drinkable.

Well said. I agree completely.cheers

 

[Jtvann]

https://www.google.com/search?q=cro...6RC2QQ_AUoAXoECAwQAQ&biw=412&bih=678&dpr=2.63

If the link works, that basically sums up my sentiment. Sub crossfit with lodo.